What ever happened to cars that scare people? LS1 T56 C4
10-21-2009, 12:16 AM
#1
Racer
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What ever happened to cars that scare people? LS1 T56 C4
Before I get started on my build thread I would just like to respectfully request that any member who has negative things to say about the LSX into a C4 idea not air their opinions here. My hope is to have a positive thread filled with usable tech.
Now, it occurred to me a couple years ago that some of the modern performance cars (C4s, C5s, C6s, newer F-bodies etc) just don't scare you the way old muscle cars did or do. Largely because of sound deadener and better suspension, you just don't get that: "I'm gonna die" feeling anymore (adrenaline). This project is about going back to basics. No creature comforts. Deleted radio, sound deadening, HVAC, power windows/mirrors and almost anything else that doesn't help it go faster.
I've always liked Corvettes for there well designed chassis, light weight, brakes, etc.. etc.. So, when I realized early C4s were getting cheap, and old/worn enough that I wouldn't mind stripping one down I started seriously shopping.
I have High Speed Auto-crossed (one solo timed lap on an open road course) an 02 Z28. I love the LS1 and T56! But it has some inherent deficiencies, and I just didn't want to diminish its street car status. Time for a purpose built, lighter, better chassis to put an LS1 T56 in.
The car I ended up with was an 84 that already had an LS1 swapped in. I'm told this car was put together by a forum member around 2001. When I got it though, someone had swapped out a built LS1 for a stock 98 LS1, backed it with a 4L60E, but it was a non running basket case.
The good news was it already had a stand alone harness, C5 accessories (except the balancer...), C5 seats, newer black interior, C5 Z06 rims, Konis, good springs/sway bars, and upgraded brakes.
Again, with my less is more, street legal race car build theme, some of the parts (4L60-E, C5 seats, Z06 wheels) went up for sale and the transformation began. Then it stalled for a while, life got in the way, but I'm back on it again.
I put 17x11s all around, and have mostly disassemble the HVAC, deleted most of the interior, power locks/mirrors, and cut out a lot of unused wiring. I picked up (on here) an nice aluminum, laser cut dash w Auto-meters gauges. It definitely works w the street legal race car theme, and allowed me to ditch alot of the interior plastics.
I'm not real proud of these photos, as it is a work in progress. Complete with messy garage and parts piled on the car (don't worry I have the carpets on the roof protecting it). But I thought some of you would get a kick out of it, and I wanted to prove I actually have this project I keep talking about.
I don't know why the previous owner painted the valve covers blue, but they will go gray or black soon.
I'm thinking carpet delete and fabricated door panels. Pretty much all business and flat black inside. I may black out the dash, but it is so pretty...
I also removed the Hooker Shorty headers it came with as I intend to go with Melrose long tube headers built for LS1 swapped C4s.
http://www.melroseheaders.com/produc...ers/C4_LSx.php
Now, it occurred to me a couple years ago that some of the modern performance cars (C4s, C5s, C6s, newer F-bodies etc) just don't scare you the way old muscle cars did or do. Largely because of sound deadener and better suspension, you just don't get that: "I'm gonna die" feeling anymore (adrenaline). This project is about going back to basics. No creature comforts. Deleted radio, sound deadening, HVAC, power windows/mirrors and almost anything else that doesn't help it go faster.
I've always liked Corvettes for there well designed chassis, light weight, brakes, etc.. etc.. So, when I realized early C4s were getting cheap, and old/worn enough that I wouldn't mind stripping one down I started seriously shopping.
I have High Speed Auto-crossed (one solo timed lap on an open road course) an 02 Z28. I love the LS1 and T56! But it has some inherent deficiencies, and I just didn't want to diminish its street car status. Time for a purpose built, lighter, better chassis to put an LS1 T56 in.
The car I ended up with was an 84 that already had an LS1 swapped in. I'm told this car was put together by a forum member around 2001. When I got it though, someone had swapped out a built LS1 for a stock 98 LS1, backed it with a 4L60E, but it was a non running basket case.
The good news was it already had a stand alone harness, C5 accessories (except the balancer...), C5 seats, newer black interior, C5 Z06 rims, Konis, good springs/sway bars, and upgraded brakes.
Again, with my less is more, street legal race car build theme, some of the parts (4L60-E, C5 seats, Z06 wheels) went up for sale and the transformation began. Then it stalled for a while, life got in the way, but I'm back on it again.
I put 17x11s all around, and have mostly disassemble the HVAC, deleted most of the interior, power locks/mirrors, and cut out a lot of unused wiring. I picked up (on here) an nice aluminum, laser cut dash w Auto-meters gauges. It definitely works w the street legal race car theme, and allowed me to ditch alot of the interior plastics.
I'm not real proud of these photos, as it is a work in progress. Complete with messy garage and parts piled on the car (don't worry I have the carpets on the roof protecting it). But I thought some of you would get a kick out of it, and I wanted to prove I actually have this project I keep talking about.
I don't know why the previous owner painted the valve covers blue, but they will go gray or black soon.
I'm thinking carpet delete and fabricated door panels. Pretty much all business and flat black inside. I may black out the dash, but it is so pretty...
I also removed the Hooker Shorty headers it came with as I intend to go with Melrose long tube headers built for LS1 swapped C4s.
http://www.melroseheaders.com/produc...ers/C4_LSx.php
10-21-2009, 12:29 AM
#2
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Right now, I'm continuing disassembly. I plan to remove the LS1, inspect it, and clean up some engine bay issues (scary fuel and brake lines). I have an under-drive balancer to put on that will work with the C5 accessories. It currently sports an F-body balancer, and the accessories are spaced out from the block (w buts and washers...) to make everything line up.
It is hard to measure things now as it is pretty crowded. I also want to check the position of the engine to see if it offset (front to rear or side to side) appropriately. Because this was an early swap, simple adaptor engine mount brackets were not used. In stead some metal was welded in and C5 stands were used. I'll post op some pics of that when I get the engine out.
Here are some more engine pics:
Gratuitous (subtle) Z28 shot!
It is hard to measure things now as it is pretty crowded. I also want to check the position of the engine to see if it offset (front to rear or side to side) appropriately. Because this was an early swap, simple adaptor engine mount brackets were not used. In stead some metal was welded in and C5 stands were used. I'll post op some pics of that when I get the engine out.
Here are some more engine pics:
Gratuitous (subtle) Z28 shot!
10-21-2009, 05:39 AM
#8
Le Mans Master
IMO one of the reasons "cars dont scare people like they used to" is traction. Case in point, I have a friend with a 67 chevelle SS that runs mid 13's. Anyways, on street tires, it will break loose going into 3rd gear and will not hook up until you let off. With the amount of rubber under the c4 and newer cars, this isnt a problem in a 13 sec. car.
I really look forward to your detailed post on the LS1 swap!!
I really look forward to your detailed post on the LS1 swap!!
10-21-2009, 08:04 AM
#9
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[QUOTE=subtlez28;1571888264]Before I get started on my build thread I would just like to respectfully request that any member who has negative things to say about the LSX into a C4 idea not air their opinions here. My hope is to have a positive thread filled with usable tech.
Hey Shaun, Interesting, seem an expensive way to scare yourself, but have at it!
I can only see a bit of what your doing, but I am doing an '84 as well.
This will be a track car only, but the principals should apply to you, as well.
#1 The front suspension set up that you show in the pictures [ I assume a 1984] is not rated for much more than 250 hp.
The problem is you need brakes to match the "Scare level" you plan on creating.
Not as glamorous as aluminum engines, but if you want "scared"..... have your brakes fall off at 150mph. The concept of the " Depends " diaper will come home to you!!
Bigger brakes = bigger rotors = no work good in 1984.
The issue is the amount of metal to mount larger brakes calipers too and the amount of distance a bracket must span to allow that.
I angst over this for two weeks, and yes there are brackets that will do it, but you can buy crank on the corner too, but that does not make it good or right.
Think about swapping to a 1989 or later front end. That would be the cradle and all. A pain, but then so is a body cast.
If you have a Dana 36 in the rear you might consider a DANA 44.
The upside of 36's is they are plentiful and cheap, so when you rip it apart, finding a new one is easy.
TJM
Hey Shaun, Interesting, seem an expensive way to scare yourself, but have at it!
I can only see a bit of what your doing, but I am doing an '84 as well.
This will be a track car only, but the principals should apply to you, as well.
#1 The front suspension set up that you show in the pictures [ I assume a 1984] is not rated for much more than 250 hp.
The problem is you need brakes to match the "Scare level" you plan on creating.
Not as glamorous as aluminum engines, but if you want "scared"..... have your brakes fall off at 150mph. The concept of the " Depends " diaper will come home to you!!
Bigger brakes = bigger rotors = no work good in 1984.
The issue is the amount of metal to mount larger brakes calipers too and the amount of distance a bracket must span to allow that.
I angst over this for two weeks, and yes there are brackets that will do it, but you can buy crank on the corner too, but that does not make it good or right.
Think about swapping to a 1989 or later front end. That would be the cradle and all. A pain, but then so is a body cast.
If you have a Dana 36 in the rear you might consider a DANA 44.
The upside of 36's is they are plentiful and cheap, so when you rip it apart, finding a new one is easy.
TJM
10-21-2009, 10:25 AM
#10
Le Mans Master
No negativity here! If I was younger I would do the very same thing, go for it! Mine would be completely stock looking on the outside and the interior but that's just the way I would want it. Also, I would have to go with an LS6. 
10-21-2009, 10:40 AM
#11
Le Mans Master
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The point should be to build a car that can be pushed to the edge witout having to be so scary. IMO Whats the plans for the suspension? I love the idea of stripping it down and droppin in the LSx. 
10-21-2009, 11:31 AM
#13
Race Director
I almost bought that dash! I'm going a similar route with mine.
I've got some firewall holes to patch from things that I removed then the cross bracket can go back in.
I've got some firewall holes to patch from things that I removed then the cross bracket can go back in.
10-21-2009, 01:59 PM
#14
Melting Slicks
My '84 scares others, but I am used to the power. The 'curve' changes so we need more, oft in short order.
My Dana 36 replacement is cryo treated and has held up quite well.
Redid parts off the dash with the EXCELLENT AutoMeter feeding me the most critical info. Bye bye center switches.
My Dana 36 replacement is cryo treated and has held up quite well.
Redid parts off the dash with the EXCELLENT AutoMeter feeding me the most critical info. Bye bye center switches.
10-21-2009, 08:58 PM
#17
Le Mans Master
If you want it to scare you then just follow the methods of the older cars. You should put some skinny tires on there and use drum brakes all the way around. Just get rid of the shocks and hang on. I remember a friend with an old Ford Fairlane 500 with really bad brakes and even worse suspension, but that thing moved baby!!! Talk about a rush. With these new cars you have a little insurance behind the speed with the handling and brakes. Have fun and throw safety out the window if you are seriously wanting to be scared.
10-21-2009, 10:47 PM
#18
Racer
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And thanks for adding the history pics!
IMO one of the reasons "cars dont scare people like they used to" is traction. Case in point, I have a friend with a 67 chevelle SS that runs mid 13's. Anyways, on street tires, it will break loose going into 3rd gear and will not hook up until you let off. With the amount of rubber under the c4 and newer cars, this isnt a problem in a 13 sec. car.
I really look forward to your detailed post on the LS1 swap!!
I really look forward to your detailed post on the LS1 swap!!
Hey Shaun, Interesting, seem an expensive way to scare yourself, but have at it!
I can only see a bit of what your doing, but I am doing an '84 as well.
This will be a track car only, but the principals should apply to you, as well.
#1 The front suspension set up that you show in the pictures [ I assume a 1984] is not rated for much more than 250 hp.
The problem is you need brakes to match the "Scare level" you plan on creating.
Not as glamorous as aluminum engines, but if you want "scared"..... have your brakes fall off at 150mph. The concept of the " Depends " diaper will come home to you!!
Bigger brakes = bigger rotors = no work good in 1984.
The issue is the amount of metal to mount larger brakes calipers too and the amount of distance a bracket must span to allow that.
I angst over this for two weeks, and yes there are brackets that will do it, but you can buy crank on the corner too, but that does not make it good or right.
Think about swapping to a 1989 or later front end. That would be the cradle and all. A pain, but then so is a body cast.
If you have a Dana 36 in the rear you might consider a DANA 44.
The upside of 36's is they are plentiful and cheap, so when you rip it apart, finding a new one is easy.
TJM
I can only see a bit of what your doing, but I am doing an '84 as well.
This will be a track car only, but the principals should apply to you, as well.
#1 The front suspension set up that you show in the pictures [ I assume a 1984] is not rated for much more than 250 hp.
The problem is you need brakes to match the "Scare level" you plan on creating.
Not as glamorous as aluminum engines, but if you want "scared"..... have your brakes fall off at 150mph. The concept of the " Depends " diaper will come home to you!!
Bigger brakes = bigger rotors = no work good in 1984.
The issue is the amount of metal to mount larger brakes calipers too and the amount of distance a bracket must span to allow that.
I angst over this for two weeks, and yes there are brackets that will do it, but you can buy crank on the corner too, but that does not make it good or right.
Think about swapping to a 1989 or later front end. That would be the cradle and all. A pain, but then so is a body cast.
If you have a Dana 36 in the rear you might consider a DANA 44.
The upside of 36's is they are plentiful and cheap, so when you rip it apart, finding a new one is easy.
TJM
My car is also more about the track also. I just want it street legal to drive to and from the track and quick fun blasts.
My car already has updated brakes. However, I have already purchased 85 spindles and most of the C5 upgrade parts. Braking is important to me. Most agree the C5 kit works well. If it doesn't I'll go aftermarket.
I'm passively looking for a D44 to swap. If a deal comes along on a 3.50 or so geared D44 I'm on it! If not, I'm hoping for the road course the D36 will survive (no clutch dumping drag strip stuff).
It is really more about scaring others. A predictable, fast track car is the plan. Still, loud, fast, and ubber-capable cars should be scary on the street - to me.
I'll add details on the suspension later. It has an aftermarket front spring, Z51 rear, Konis, and is lowered. I'll detail the suspension in the build thread I promise!
Thanks for not buying it! He gave me a super deal!
I hope to see your car in person! Come run some Midwestern Counsil events at Blackhawk Farms or Milwaukee Mile next year!
Right on!
But I'm going for more of a scare a passenger w noise and speed thing...
If you want it to scare you then just follow the methods of the older cars. You should put some skinny tires on there and use drum brakes all the way around. Just get rid of the shocks and hang on. I remember a friend with an old Ford Fairlane 500 with really bad brakes and even worse suspension, but that thing moved baby!!! Talk about a rush. With these new cars you have a little insurance behind the speed with the handling and brakes. Have fun and throw safety out the window if you are seriously wanting to be scared.
I hear you, I've been there!
But I want to stop and turn also!
Last edited by subtlez28; 10-21-2009 at 10:54 PM. Reason: Spelling
10-22-2009, 10:28 AM
#20
Speed isn't scary it's losing traction while trying to lay the power down or the inability to stop is what scares people. A 400rwhp C4 with a steep gear stripped out or not will require some restraint while driving it. When I first got my car done I nearly wrecked it a couple of times just goofing around. Raced a Harley Davidson once and the 1-2 shift put me in his lane, good thing I was pulling on him hard. I think your project is cool, should be alot of fun