1985 is now a classic. What can be removed with no emissions test
12-17-2018, 12:41 PM
#22
Team Owner
Member Since: Sep 2001
Location: Athens AL
Posts: 59,635
Received 1,398 Likes
on
1,015 Posts
C7 of the Year - Unmodified Finalist 2021
C4 of Year Finalist (performance mods) 2019
The AIR pump is a pretty free spinning pulley, but its in the way. I yanked it off and put in the AIR eliminator pulley in its place, which is just a pulley. You can leave its electrical connectors sitting there taped up. You can put a pipe plug over the AIR connections on the exhaust manifold and the one on the main cat. I put headers on without AIR connections and changed the cat when I did it, yours will be partially plugged due to the age most likely.
EGR can be removed as well, and you can do the diode trick (run a search) to trick the ECM into believing the EGR is still there, or you'll just get a Code 32 on longer cruises. The alternative is to reprogram the chip to take out the 32. You will need a blockoff plate for the intake manifold. The exhaust manifold has to be welded closed, or buy headers without it, as I did.
EGR can be removed as well, and you can do the diode trick (run a search) to trick the ECM into believing the EGR is still there, or you'll just get a Code 32 on longer cruises. The alternative is to reprogram the chip to take out the 32. You will need a blockoff plate for the intake manifold. The exhaust manifold has to be welded closed, or buy headers without it, as I did.
12-17-2018, 03:30 PM
#23
Team Owner
If someone lives in CA and wants to remove stuff, might be easier and more pleasant to remove self form the box of nuts.
12-17-2018, 04:48 PM
#24
Drifting
Any chance you could post a link? All the items I'm finding come back to a file that is no longer available. Since I'm in the process of putting on my miniram I'd love to do this while I have it apart.
12-17-2018, 05:22 PM
#25
Team Owner
Why not have the programming done to remove the code? You are going to have to get a chip done to maximize the MR
12-17-2018, 08:22 PM
#27
Team Owner
Member Since: Sep 2001
Location: Athens AL
Posts: 59,635
Received 1,398 Likes
on
1,015 Posts
C7 of the Year - Unmodified Finalist 2021
C4 of Year Finalist (performance mods) 2019
Diode is required because the ECM is looking for a change in states from a voltage change when EGR conditions are met. It is being used as a switch here.
This can be found using a search function, or you can pm user 65Z01:
The idea is to use the ground command signal from the ECM to the grey wire at the EGR solenoid to provide the 0v dc feedback signal to the ECM on the dark green wire from the EGR temperature switch. However there is a problem of differing voltage levels between these two circuits.
When the ECM is not pulling the grey wire to ground there is a 12v dc on that wire to the ECM, but when the EGR temp switch is open, there is only 5v dc on the Dk Grn wire to the ECM.
So, we want to allow the ground command signal on the grey wire to pull the Dk Grn wire to ground.
Meanwhile we need to block the 12v dc from being applied back to the ECM on the DK Grn wire. This can be done by connecting a diode between the Gry wire and the DK Grn wire as follows
EGR Temp Switch DK Grn ----------------- diode + > -------------------EGr solenoid Gry wire
To test the circuit, turn the key on, ground the Gry wire and verify that the signal on the EGR temp. switch has gone from 5v to 0v (actually about 0.6v )
This can be found using a search function, or you can pm user 65Z01:
The idea is to use the ground command signal from the ECM to the grey wire at the EGR solenoid to provide the 0v dc feedback signal to the ECM on the dark green wire from the EGR temperature switch. However there is a problem of differing voltage levels between these two circuits.
When the ECM is not pulling the grey wire to ground there is a 12v dc on that wire to the ECM, but when the EGR temp switch is open, there is only 5v dc on the Dk Grn wire to the ECM.
So, we want to allow the ground command signal on the grey wire to pull the Dk Grn wire to ground.
Meanwhile we need to block the 12v dc from being applied back to the ECM on the DK Grn wire. This can be done by connecting a diode between the Gry wire and the DK Grn wire as follows
EGR Temp Switch DK Grn ----------------- diode + > -------------------EGr solenoid Gry wire
To test the circuit, turn the key on, ground the Gry wire and verify that the signal on the EGR temp. switch has gone from 5v to 0v (actually about 0.6v )
The following users liked this post:
IHBD (12-18-2018)
12-17-2018, 09:08 PM
#28
Instructor
On a stock daily driver car , I suggest leaving emissions stuff installed because....
1) the car stinks less,
2) You will feel good about yourself for protecting the environment
3) unnoticable performance gains by removing. (less than 5 hp), so waste of time.
4) The EGR actually helps your car run better in the cold for first few minutes after starting. (Its actually a clever design with a purpose) .
5) After remove the AirPump, the replacement Pulley and alternator relocate bracket put in its place will likely have some flex and make annoying noises, and may put more presure and wear on the alternator pully. (killed my Alternator quickly).
It may also cause slight modification to AirFuel ratio until warmed up. (At stage where its expecting to send Air to Exaust manifold port before cat, and O2 sensor detect otherwise) .
6) After remove CAT, your car will be 30% louder, and good chance you'll end up putting it back on. ( I did)
7) You will need an ECU code/tune reprogram to properly avoid throwing error codes and fully disable Emmissions features/logic.
There are a few legit beneficial reasons to remove emmissions stuff, expecially if you plan to race.....
1) Remove AIR- To clean up the engine bay to make more room to easier access components around the front of engine.
2) Remove AIR - To install Super charger in 85-89. Gonna relocate Alternator anyway, and need to make room for SC.
3) Remove EGR- When your spending good money to port and polish intakes to maximize flow. Why allow an EGR system to dump dirty smoke into intake to diminish the benefits that you just paid to get.
4) Remove AIR/EGR- when installing headers, it will save $150 to get them without the Emmission ports. Give more room for sparkplug wires do to not get burnt by touching headrer connections.
5) Remove CAT- when upgrading exaust mid section to larger or dual pipe or adding crossover pipe design. Gains acheived by the added exaust design, not much from removing the CAT.
6) Remove CAT- when CAT is used up or rusted out, and cheaper to buy a $50 delete pipe than an expensive $200 CAT.
7) Remove EGR - when installing new Intake manifold/plenum for racing that might not have ports for EGR, or to hard to access EGR components for future maintenance.
Technically there are HP losses for having CAT/EGR/AIR installed, to include addl load of Airpump or CAT restrictions, or added weight. But HP gains are just very very little. The big benefits to removing are really more about cleaning up outside and inside of the engine.
1) the car stinks less,
2) You will feel good about yourself for protecting the environment
3) unnoticable performance gains by removing. (less than 5 hp), so waste of time.
4) The EGR actually helps your car run better in the cold for first few minutes after starting. (Its actually a clever design with a purpose) .
5) After remove the AirPump, the replacement Pulley and alternator relocate bracket put in its place will likely have some flex and make annoying noises, and may put more presure and wear on the alternator pully. (killed my Alternator quickly).
It may also cause slight modification to AirFuel ratio until warmed up. (At stage where its expecting to send Air to Exaust manifold port before cat, and O2 sensor detect otherwise) .
6) After remove CAT, your car will be 30% louder, and good chance you'll end up putting it back on. ( I did)
7) You will need an ECU code/tune reprogram to properly avoid throwing error codes and fully disable Emmissions features/logic.
There are a few legit beneficial reasons to remove emmissions stuff, expecially if you plan to race.....
1) Remove AIR- To clean up the engine bay to make more room to easier access components around the front of engine.
2) Remove AIR - To install Super charger in 85-89. Gonna relocate Alternator anyway, and need to make room for SC.
3) Remove EGR- When your spending good money to port and polish intakes to maximize flow. Why allow an EGR system to dump dirty smoke into intake to diminish the benefits that you just paid to get.
4) Remove AIR/EGR- when installing headers, it will save $150 to get them without the Emmission ports. Give more room for sparkplug wires do to not get burnt by touching headrer connections.
5) Remove CAT- when upgrading exaust mid section to larger or dual pipe or adding crossover pipe design. Gains acheived by the added exaust design, not much from removing the CAT.
6) Remove CAT- when CAT is used up or rusted out, and cheaper to buy a $50 delete pipe than an expensive $200 CAT.
7) Remove EGR - when installing new Intake manifold/plenum for racing that might not have ports for EGR, or to hard to access EGR components for future maintenance.
Technically there are HP losses for having CAT/EGR/AIR installed, to include addl load of Airpump or CAT restrictions, or added weight. But HP gains are just very very little. The big benefits to removing are really more about cleaning up outside and inside of the engine.
12-18-2018, 12:28 AM
#29
Team Owner
On a stock daily driver car , I suggest leaving emissions stuff installed because....
1) the car stinks less,
2) You will feel good about yourself for protecting the environment
3) unnoticable performance gains by removing. (less than 5 hp), so waste of time.
4) The EGR actually helps your car run better in the cold for first few minutes after starting. (Its actually a clever design with a purpose) .
5) After remove the AirPump, the replacement Pulley and alternator relocate bracket put in its place will likely have some flex and make annoying noises, and may put more presure and wear on the alternator pully. (killed my Alternator quickly).
It may also cause slight modification to AirFuel ratio until warmed up. (At stage where its expecting to send Air to Exaust manifold port before cat, and O2 sensor detect otherwise) .
6) After remove CAT, your car will be 30% louder, and good chance you'll end up putting it back on. ( I did)
7) You will need an ECU code/tune reprogram to properly avoid throwing error codes and fully disable Emmissions features/logic.
There are a few legit beneficial reasons to remove emmissions stuff, expecially if you plan to race.....
1) Remove AIR- To clean up the engine bay to make more room to easier access components around the front of engine.
2) Remove AIR - To install Super charger in 85-89. Gonna relocate Alternator anyway, and need to make room for SC.
3) Remove EGR- When your spending good money to port and polish intakes to maximize flow. Why allow an EGR system to dump dirty smoke into intake to diminish the benefits that you just paid to get.
4) Remove AIR/EGR- when installing headers, it will save $150 to get them without the Emmission ports. Give more room for sparkplug wires do to not get burnt by touching headrer connections.
5) Remove CAT- when upgrading exaust mid section to larger or dual pipe or adding crossover pipe design. Gains acheived by the added exaust design, not much from removing the CAT.
6) Remove CAT- when CAT is used up or rusted out, and cheaper to buy a $50 delete pipe than an expensive $200 CAT.
7) Remove EGR - when installing new Intake manifold/plenum for racing that might not have ports for EGR, or to hard to access EGR components for future maintenance.
Technically there are HP losses for having CAT/EGR/AIR installed, to include addl load of Airpump or CAT restrictions, or added weight. But HP gains are just very very little. The big benefits to removing are really more about cleaning up outside and inside of the engine.
1) the car stinks less,
2) You will feel good about yourself for protecting the environment
3) unnoticable performance gains by removing. (less than 5 hp), so waste of time.
4) The EGR actually helps your car run better in the cold for first few minutes after starting. (Its actually a clever design with a purpose) .
5) After remove the AirPump, the replacement Pulley and alternator relocate bracket put in its place will likely have some flex and make annoying noises, and may put more presure and wear on the alternator pully. (killed my Alternator quickly).
It may also cause slight modification to AirFuel ratio until warmed up. (At stage where its expecting to send Air to Exaust manifold port before cat, and O2 sensor detect otherwise) .
6) After remove CAT, your car will be 30% louder, and good chance you'll end up putting it back on. ( I did)
7) You will need an ECU code/tune reprogram to properly avoid throwing error codes and fully disable Emmissions features/logic.
There are a few legit beneficial reasons to remove emmissions stuff, expecially if you plan to race.....
1) Remove AIR- To clean up the engine bay to make more room to easier access components around the front of engine.
2) Remove AIR - To install Super charger in 85-89. Gonna relocate Alternator anyway, and need to make room for SC.
3) Remove EGR- When your spending good money to port and polish intakes to maximize flow. Why allow an EGR system to dump dirty smoke into intake to diminish the benefits that you just paid to get.
4) Remove AIR/EGR- when installing headers, it will save $150 to get them without the Emmission ports. Give more room for sparkplug wires do to not get burnt by touching headrer connections.
5) Remove CAT- when upgrading exaust mid section to larger or dual pipe or adding crossover pipe design. Gains acheived by the added exaust design, not much from removing the CAT.
6) Remove CAT- when CAT is used up or rusted out, and cheaper to buy a $50 delete pipe than an expensive $200 CAT.
7) Remove EGR - when installing new Intake manifold/plenum for racing that might not have ports for EGR, or to hard to access EGR components for future maintenance.
Technically there are HP losses for having CAT/EGR/AIR installed, to include addl load of Airpump or CAT restrictions, or added weight. But HP gains are just very very little. The big benefits to removing are really more about cleaning up outside and inside of the engine.
2. That assumes you get a kick out of it. Not everyone does care.
3. True.
4. Care to explain how? Is the EGR active at starting time?
5. How did determine this? Also how does it affect the air fuel ratio?
6. Definitely louder
7. You just need a tweak to get rid of the code 32 or what is on your mind?
12-18-2018, 08:03 AM
#30
Team Owner
Member Since: Sep 2001
Location: Athens AL
Posts: 59,635
Received 1,398 Likes
on
1,015 Posts
C7 of the Year - Unmodified Finalist 2021
C4 of Year Finalist (performance mods) 2019
On a stock daily driver car , I suggest leaving emissions stuff installed because....
1) the car stinks less, - There is no smell difference to me, still smells like exhaust fumes.
2) You will feel good about yourself for protecting the environment - Not me
3) unnoticable performance gains by removing. (less than 5 hp), so waste of time. True, there are minimal gains if any
4) The EGR actually helps your car run better in the cold for first few minutes after starting. (Its actually a clever design with a purpose) .- Incorrect, EGR is only activated at part-throttle cruising above 170F coolant temperature. It does not run at startup in any situation.
5) After remove the AirPump, the replacement Pulley and alternator relocate bracket put in its place will likely have some flex and make annoying noises, and may put more presure and wear on the alternator pully. (killed my Alternator quickly). - Has had zero effect in my case over 10 years now. Don't buy a flimsy eliminator.
It may also cause slight modification to AirFuel ratio until warmed up. (At stage where its expecting to send Air to Exaust manifold port before cat, and O2 sensor detect otherwise) .- Initial fueling A/F ratio is dependent on CTS, throttle position, and preprogrammed open loop tables in the computer's memory. Nothing downstream affects those. once in closed loop the computer can read what the O2 is saying and adjust. When AIR would be sending to the main cat, that is downstream and does not affect engine A/F ratio.
6) After remove CAT, your car will be 30% louder, and good chance you'll end up putting it back on. ( I did) - True
7) You will need an ECU code/tune reprogram to properly avoid throwing error codes and fully disable Emissions features/logic. - Already disproven, a diode trick is all that is required, though a chip change is a good thing for it.
1) the car stinks less, - There is no smell difference to me, still smells like exhaust fumes.
2) You will feel good about yourself for protecting the environment - Not me
3) unnoticable performance gains by removing. (less than 5 hp), so waste of time. True, there are minimal gains if any
4) The EGR actually helps your car run better in the cold for first few minutes after starting. (Its actually a clever design with a purpose) .- Incorrect, EGR is only activated at part-throttle cruising above 170F coolant temperature. It does not run at startup in any situation.
5) After remove the AirPump, the replacement Pulley and alternator relocate bracket put in its place will likely have some flex and make annoying noises, and may put more presure and wear on the alternator pully. (killed my Alternator quickly). - Has had zero effect in my case over 10 years now. Don't buy a flimsy eliminator.
It may also cause slight modification to AirFuel ratio until warmed up. (At stage where its expecting to send Air to Exaust manifold port before cat, and O2 sensor detect otherwise) .- Initial fueling A/F ratio is dependent on CTS, throttle position, and preprogrammed open loop tables in the computer's memory. Nothing downstream affects those. once in closed loop the computer can read what the O2 is saying and adjust. When AIR would be sending to the main cat, that is downstream and does not affect engine A/F ratio.
6) After remove CAT, your car will be 30% louder, and good chance you'll end up putting it back on. ( I did) - True
7) You will need an ECU code/tune reprogram to properly avoid throwing error codes and fully disable Emissions features/logic. - Already disproven, a diode trick is all that is required, though a chip change is a good thing for it.
Last edited by vader86; 12-18-2018 at 08:03 AM.
12-18-2018, 07:21 PM
#31
Instructor
Aklim and Vader86,
please disregard my comment on AIR and O2 sensor effecting AFR. My statement was wrong, and I didn't think it out clearly before speaking. Note I did previously say "may". not "does". The AIR switching valve directs air to the exhaust manifold during cold operating conditions or "open loop mode". And O2sensors don't activate until they reach higher temp for "closed loop". AIR sends air to the Cat when in "closed loop" mode, which is after and unseen by the o2 sensor..
Regarding EGR, there was a good writeup I read from the GM guy who designed it. I'll see if I can find it and post.
Regarding other topics...
1) when I took the CAT off, I smelled significantly more exaust fumes, and several passengers made negative comments about the smell.
Maybe we just have sensitive noses, or maybe some people just get used to it. All things considered I preferred to put the Cat back, .
2) Regarding flimsy delete kit. Sway and sweaky noise may not be a problem for everyone, it may have to do with health of all the other pulleys in their car.
After that time, I also had replaced tensioner, Harmonic balancer pulley, as well as the alternator that prematurely failed, and the pulley on the delete kit.
. Maybe there are kits with stronger supports. But what I do know for sure is that the stock configuration bolts the AIR to the Alternator, and also has a support bracket from Alternator to the manifold. It is very solid that way. Even before I removed the AIR, but after installing headers, I had to remove the support bar to manifold, and could notice additional sway in the alternator without that support. Putting the Alternator on the AIR delete kit bars extends the Alternator even further outward with less support. Some people chose to keep the AIR pump in place, but remove the guts, so the AIR casing acted as the AIR delete supports, so everything stays solid. That method reduces the load put on the crank, which is the source of 5HP gain, but still allows solid mounting. Im just saying, removing AIR pump is just one more thing that opens the possibility to additional problems that will take more time and money to resolve. For me, I wanted the AIR removed, it was prep for a future supercharger upgrade. I wasn't concern about flimsy noisy Delete kit, because I knew It was temporary until I replaced it with the Solid Super Charger Mount kit. . :
please disregard my comment on AIR and O2 sensor effecting AFR. My statement was wrong, and I didn't think it out clearly before speaking. Note I did previously say "may". not "does". The AIR switching valve directs air to the exhaust manifold during cold operating conditions or "open loop mode". And O2sensors don't activate until they reach higher temp for "closed loop". AIR sends air to the Cat when in "closed loop" mode, which is after and unseen by the o2 sensor..
Regarding EGR, there was a good writeup I read from the GM guy who designed it. I'll see if I can find it and post.
Regarding other topics...
1) when I took the CAT off, I smelled significantly more exaust fumes, and several passengers made negative comments about the smell.
Maybe we just have sensitive noses, or maybe some people just get used to it. All things considered I preferred to put the Cat back, .
2) Regarding flimsy delete kit. Sway and sweaky noise may not be a problem for everyone, it may have to do with health of all the other pulleys in their car.
After that time, I also had replaced tensioner, Harmonic balancer pulley, as well as the alternator that prematurely failed, and the pulley on the delete kit.
. Maybe there are kits with stronger supports. But what I do know for sure is that the stock configuration bolts the AIR to the Alternator, and also has a support bracket from Alternator to the manifold. It is very solid that way. Even before I removed the AIR, but after installing headers, I had to remove the support bar to manifold, and could notice additional sway in the alternator without that support. Putting the Alternator on the AIR delete kit bars extends the Alternator even further outward with less support. Some people chose to keep the AIR pump in place, but remove the guts, so the AIR casing acted as the AIR delete supports, so everything stays solid. That method reduces the load put on the crank, which is the source of 5HP gain, but still allows solid mounting. Im just saying, removing AIR pump is just one more thing that opens the possibility to additional problems that will take more time and money to resolve. For me, I wanted the AIR removed, it was prep for a future supercharger upgrade. I wasn't concern about flimsy noisy Delete kit, because I knew It was temporary until I replaced it with the Solid Super Charger Mount kit. . :
12-18-2018, 10:46 PM
#32
Team Owner
Note I did previously say "may". not "does". The AIR switching valve directs air to the exhaust manifold during cold operating conditions or "open loop mode". And O2sensors don't activate until they reach higher temp for "closed loop". AIR sends air to the Cat when in "closed loop" mode, which is after and unseen by the o2 sensor..
Regarding EGR, there was a good writeup I read from the GM guy who designed it. I'll see if I can find it and post.
1) when I took the CAT off, I smelled significantly more exaust fumes, and several passengers made negative comments about the smell.
Maybe we just have sensitive noses, or maybe some people just get used to it. All things considered I preferred to put the Cat back, .
2) Regarding flimsy delete kit. Sway and sweaky noise may not be a problem for everyone, it may have to do with health of all the other pulleys in their car.
After that time, I also had replaced tensioner, Harmonic balancer pulley, as well as the alternator that prematurely failed, and the pulley on the delete kit.
. Maybe there are kits with stronger supports. But what I do know for sure is that the stock configuration bolts the AIR to the Alternator, and also has a support bracket from Alternator to the manifold. It is very solid that way. Even before I removed the AIR, but after installing headers, I had to remove the support bar to manifold, and could notice additional sway in the alternator without that support. Putting the Alternator on the AIR delete kit bars extends the Alternator even further outward with less support. Some people chose to keep the AIR pump in place, but remove the guts, so the AIR casing acted as the AIR delete supports, so everything stays solid. That method reduces the load put on the crank, which is the source of 5HP gain, but still allows solid mounting. Im just saying, removing AIR pump is just one more thing that opens the possibility to additional problems that will take more time and money to resolve. For me, I wanted the AIR removed, it was prep for a future supercharger upgrade. I wasn't concern about flimsy noisy Delete kit, because I knew It was temporary until I replaced it with the Solid Super Charger Mount kit. . :
Regarding EGR, there was a good writeup I read from the GM guy who designed it. I'll see if I can find it and post.
1) when I took the CAT off, I smelled significantly more exaust fumes, and several passengers made negative comments about the smell.
Maybe we just have sensitive noses, or maybe some people just get used to it. All things considered I preferred to put the Cat back, .
2) Regarding flimsy delete kit. Sway and sweaky noise may not be a problem for everyone, it may have to do with health of all the other pulleys in their car.
After that time, I also had replaced tensioner, Harmonic balancer pulley, as well as the alternator that prematurely failed, and the pulley on the delete kit.
. Maybe there are kits with stronger supports. But what I do know for sure is that the stock configuration bolts the AIR to the Alternator, and also has a support bracket from Alternator to the manifold. It is very solid that way. Even before I removed the AIR, but after installing headers, I had to remove the support bar to manifold, and could notice additional sway in the alternator without that support. Putting the Alternator on the AIR delete kit bars extends the Alternator even further outward with less support. Some people chose to keep the AIR pump in place, but remove the guts, so the AIR casing acted as the AIR delete supports, so everything stays solid. That method reduces the load put on the crank, which is the source of 5HP gain, but still allows solid mounting. Im just saying, removing AIR pump is just one more thing that opens the possibility to additional problems that will take more time and money to resolve. For me, I wanted the AIR removed, it was prep for a future supercharger upgrade. I wasn't concern about flimsy noisy Delete kit, because I knew It was temporary until I replaced it with the Solid Super Charger Mount kit. . :
Might be interesting to see how exactly.
What exactly were you doing at the time? driving around or just standing around to sniff the exhaust? Was it just a whiff when you were standing still? That can happen. If it is all the time, maybe an exhaust leak? It does have more of a rotten egg smell but as I drive forward most of the time, the only time I might smell it is if I am stopped and the wind is blowing in the right direction.
If you get a delete kit made by someone in the garage by tack welding a couple sheets of metal, I totally agree. OTOH, alternators prematurely fail all the time. To be able to attribute it to a decently made kit would be something. Replacing it with a flimsy kit and saying there are problems is not a really fair comparison.
12-19-2018, 01:54 AM
#33
I have removed the smog and other accessories on most of my older cars. Not for any power gains, which wont happen anyway, but just to uncluttered and give me more room to work.
12-19-2018, 08:16 AM
#34
Team Owner
12-19-2018, 08:56 AM
#35
Since there is no more emissions or inspection for my car I am wondering how much can be removed from the engine bay such as the smog pump, egr, etc. This is a car that is driven only a few times a week but I don't want to remove something that will damage the car. Thanks for your help.
12-19-2018, 11:00 AM
#36
Team Owner
I think you need to check your state, and Federal law says CAT has to be there. Obviously not for emissions inspection but an over zealous cop could look underneath and cite you. The stuff under the hood can go. I live in PA and have talked to people that had this happen. Our state troopers have nothing better to do than pull classic cars over and try and find stuff to write tickets for. But what you can do is hollow out the CAT, that way you'll be fine for resale too.
12-19-2018, 02:24 PM
#37
Instructor
Aklim,
"Based on what you just said, I think "may" is such a remote possibility it might as well be "unlikely"."
The answer is not "unlikely". The answer is "doesn't effect AFR".
I said "may", meaning off the top of my head, I couldn't remember details, either way.
Sometimes I have senior moments :-) I Forgot about open loop. Actually, when I had the AIR and CAT removed, it was at the same time that I had headers installed.
After that work happened, my car didn't run exactly right cold and at idle, and I never fully understood why. (AFR, different backpressure, tune?). Not to long after, I ended up removing a Grenatelli Adj MAF (due to a different symptom, unable to restart after car running for a long while and after shut off, like to get gas, which was caused by a conflict with Hypertech ECU chip), and all the problems went away, including the cold idle issue seen after the header install / AIR removal. That's why the AFR thought popped into my head in this post. But the AIR removal had nothing to do with all that, for all the reasons, we discussed in this thread. The AIR removal is a pretty safe mod, other than the structural support point that I made. Also some report that not sending AIR to CAT in closed loop can cause premature failure of CAT. Some report that's not a problem with newer CAT materials. Nor does it matter, if the person doesn't care about emmissions.
> "What exactly were you doing at the time? driving around or just standing around to sniff the exhaust? Was it just a whiff when you were standing still? That can happen. If it is all the time, maybe an exhaust leak? It does have more of a rotten egg smell but as I drive forward most of the time, the only time I might smell it is if I am stopped and the wind is blowing in the right direction."
I used car for daily driver, in my rural fresh air town. The temp solution was to role the windows up.
> "If you get a delete kit made by someone in the garage by tack welding a couple sheets of metal, I totally agree. OTOH, alternators prematurely fail all the time. To be able to attribute it to a decently made kit would be something. Replacing it with a flimsy kit and saying there are problems is not a really fair comparison. "
I totally agree. I never said that removing the AIR (or the CAT) wasn't a good idea, nor that it couldn't be done sturdily. I just pointed out that I had problems, and that I believe that its related to the physics of the alternator being supported by a much longer arm of flimsier metal. The squeaking on mine drives me crazy. People often under estimate how much pressure in on the pullys when they are moving fast at 2500-3000 RPMs.
At work, I have a moto " one can chose to take a chance with failure or chose to guarantee success". That means don't do anything unproven that you don't need to do, unless it has a clear benefit, as otherwise it just adds the possibility for failure. By being made aware of possible failures, by hearing other's experiences, one can make better decisions to avoid those possible failures, such as sourcing out more solid proven product brands to use for their projects.
I personally believe that removing the AIR is a good idea, to clear space, when done correctly, simply because there is almost no benefit to having one installed, if that person doesn't care about emmissions benefit. I also believe every single HP increment counts, as HP gain equals the sum of all upgrades' HP improvements. .
The problem is that it is not always clear in advance, which products will allow a trouble free upgrade.
"Based on what you just said, I think "may" is such a remote possibility it might as well be "unlikely"."
The answer is not "unlikely". The answer is "doesn't effect AFR".
I said "may", meaning off the top of my head, I couldn't remember details, either way.
Sometimes I have senior moments :-) I Forgot about open loop. Actually, when I had the AIR and CAT removed, it was at the same time that I had headers installed.
After that work happened, my car didn't run exactly right cold and at idle, and I never fully understood why. (AFR, different backpressure, tune?). Not to long after, I ended up removing a Grenatelli Adj MAF (due to a different symptom, unable to restart after car running for a long while and after shut off, like to get gas, which was caused by a conflict with Hypertech ECU chip), and all the problems went away, including the cold idle issue seen after the header install / AIR removal. That's why the AFR thought popped into my head in this post. But the AIR removal had nothing to do with all that, for all the reasons, we discussed in this thread. The AIR removal is a pretty safe mod, other than the structural support point that I made. Also some report that not sending AIR to CAT in closed loop can cause premature failure of CAT. Some report that's not a problem with newer CAT materials. Nor does it matter, if the person doesn't care about emmissions.
> "What exactly were you doing at the time? driving around or just standing around to sniff the exhaust? Was it just a whiff when you were standing still? That can happen. If it is all the time, maybe an exhaust leak? It does have more of a rotten egg smell but as I drive forward most of the time, the only time I might smell it is if I am stopped and the wind is blowing in the right direction."
I used car for daily driver, in my rural fresh air town. The temp solution was to role the windows up.
> "If you get a delete kit made by someone in the garage by tack welding a couple sheets of metal, I totally agree. OTOH, alternators prematurely fail all the time. To be able to attribute it to a decently made kit would be something. Replacing it with a flimsy kit and saying there are problems is not a really fair comparison. "
I totally agree. I never said that removing the AIR (or the CAT) wasn't a good idea, nor that it couldn't be done sturdily. I just pointed out that I had problems, and that I believe that its related to the physics of the alternator being supported by a much longer arm of flimsier metal. The squeaking on mine drives me crazy. People often under estimate how much pressure in on the pullys when they are moving fast at 2500-3000 RPMs.
At work, I have a moto " one can chose to take a chance with failure or chose to guarantee success". That means don't do anything unproven that you don't need to do, unless it has a clear benefit, as otherwise it just adds the possibility for failure. By being made aware of possible failures, by hearing other's experiences, one can make better decisions to avoid those possible failures, such as sourcing out more solid proven product brands to use for their projects.
I personally believe that removing the AIR is a good idea, to clear space, when done correctly, simply because there is almost no benefit to having one installed, if that person doesn't care about emmissions benefit. I also believe every single HP increment counts, as HP gain equals the sum of all upgrades' HP improvements. .
The problem is that it is not always clear in advance, which products will allow a trouble free upgrade.
12-19-2018, 08:00 PM
#38
Team Owner
After that work happened, my car didn't run exactly right cold and at idle, and I never fully understood why. (AFR, different backpressure, tune?). Not to long after, I ended up removing a Grenatelli Adj MAF (due to a different symptom, unable to restart after car running for a long while and after shut off, like to get gas, which was caused by a conflict with Hypertech ECU chip), and all the problems went away, including the cold idle issue seen after the header install / AIR removal. That's why the AFR thought popped into my head in this post. But the AIR removal had nothing to do with all that, for all the reasons, we discussed in this thread. The AIR removal is a pretty safe mod, other than the structural support point that I made. Also some report that not sending AIR to CAT in closed loop can cause premature failure of CAT. Some report that's not a problem with newer CAT materials. Nor does it matter, if the person doesn't care about emmissions.
I used car for daily driver, in my rural fresh air town. The temp solution was to role the windows up.
I just pointed out that I had problems, and that I believe that its related to the physics of the alternator being supported by a much longer arm of flimsier metal. The squeaking on mine drives me crazy. People often under estimate how much pressure in on the pullys when they are moving fast at 2500-3000 RPMs.
I personally believe that removing the AIR is a good idea, to clear space, when done correctly, simply because there is almost no benefit to having one installed, if that person doesn't care about emmissions benefit. I also believe every single HP increment counts, as HP gain equals the sum of all upgrades' HP improvements. .
The problem is that it is not always clear in advance, which products will allow a trouble free upgrade.
I used car for daily driver, in my rural fresh air town. The temp solution was to role the windows up.
I just pointed out that I had problems, and that I believe that its related to the physics of the alternator being supported by a much longer arm of flimsier metal. The squeaking on mine drives me crazy. People often under estimate how much pressure in on the pullys when they are moving fast at 2500-3000 RPMs.
I personally believe that removing the AIR is a good idea, to clear space, when done correctly, simply because there is almost no benefit to having one installed, if that person doesn't care about emmissions benefit. I also believe every single HP increment counts, as HP gain equals the sum of all upgrades' HP improvements. .
The problem is that it is not always clear in advance, which products will allow a trouble free upgrade.
As said, I have had exhaust blown back at me when idling and the wind blows it back if the windows are down. The headers are supposed to pump the exhaust all the way back to the tailpipe so maybe the blown back exhaust is what you are getting and it stinks more than untreated? I drive in the city a lot so I get exhaust but who knows whose it really is. Kinda like a quite fart in a church.
Not sure. Most of the ones I have seen are kinda sturdy looking and reving it doesn't show much flexing, if any. When buying something these days, I can't afford to buy the cheapest anymore. Too many times saving $10 today and spending $20 tomorrow.
I don't know about the AIR pump itself as to how much since I lost mine a long time ago but I have also lost much skin working on stock manifolds with AIR tubes hanging off them so if I run without, I'll go for it.
12-20-2018, 07:51 AM
#39
- 1986 Original Owner -
12-20-2018, 08:43 AM
#40
Team Owner
