Dana 44 refurbish and strengthening for drag racing
05-04-2011, 12:31 AM
#21
Melting Slicks
Caleb, your AFR 210 comp port heads will be here tomorrow. And I have all of Vader 86's parts to build his 398 shortblock. And I am finishing a 383 I built for a pick up truck, the guy overheated it and cracked a head. I will be busy. I am hoping to have yours near finished by next week depending on how things go.
05-04-2011, 01:25 AM
#22
Caleb, your AFR 210 comp port heads will be here tomorrow. And I have all of Vader 86's parts to build his 398 shortblock. And I am finishing a 383 I built for a pick up truck, the guy overheated it and cracked a head. I will be busy. I am hoping to have yours near finished by next week depending on how things go.
What do you use now?
Fabed up ford 9 inch ?
12- bolt 8-7/8" inch Chevrolet rear?
dana 60?
Super Dana 60 by Strange Engineering?
Or a complete Mark Williams Custom Rear setup for Pro-stock style racing?
BR
05-04-2011, 09:19 AM
#23
Safety Car
Thanks for the comments guys. When it really comes down to it, the matter of fact is i just don't have the money to do a solid conversion. I just dropped 7k on my motor and heads and i'm still not done. I don't have another 5k to spare to do that bolt in solid rear end. I chose not to chince ANYWHERE on this motor. It should last with the best of em
I'm going to have to work with what i have for now.
rklessdriver I'm similiar to you in the fact that i am going to be running a Spec stage 3+ clutch in mine. Jim (motor builder) says exactly what you do about finessing the clutch. I've been driving stick my whole life so i know exactly what you guys are talking about.
I'd love to add in a snubber bar also but my car doesn't have a cage so i really don't have a place to mount it. Any thoughts on ways to still have this without a cage?
The D44 on this car is stock as far as i know, has 3.54 gears. It's the HD unit i believe. How can i check these things your talking about, clutch packs, breakaway? I've never had the end of the housing off. These are the type of things i want to go over while i have it out of the car. As well as bearings, seals etc. Any help or guidance you could provide would be awesome.
My goal and whole purpose when buying this car was to have a streetable car that i could drive to and from the track and be able to run consistent low low 11's and maybe spray some nitrous in the future. I bought this car because well lets face it, we all have a certain love of this body style and year of vette. My grandpa had one and i grew up boppin around in it.
I'm going to have to work with what i have for now.
rklessdriver I'm similiar to you in the fact that i am going to be running a Spec stage 3+ clutch in mine. Jim (motor builder) says exactly what you do about finessing the clutch. I've been driving stick my whole life so i know exactly what you guys are talking about.
I'd love to add in a snubber bar also but my car doesn't have a cage so i really don't have a place to mount it. Any thoughts on ways to still have this without a cage?
The D44 on this car is stock as far as i know, has 3.54 gears. It's the HD unit i believe. How can i check these things your talking about, clutch packs, breakaway? I've never had the end of the housing off. These are the type of things i want to go over while i have it out of the car. As well as bearings, seals etc. Any help or guidance you could provide would be awesome.
My goal and whole purpose when buying this car was to have a streetable car that i could drive to and from the track and be able to run consistent low low 11's and maybe spray some nitrous in the future. I bought this car because well lets face it, we all have a certain love of this body style and year of vette. My grandpa had one and i grew up boppin around in it.
Once you have ONE rear tire off the ground, all you do is apply force to the 36mm nut until the clutches in the posi release and tire rotates. See what the deflection reading is on the TQ wrench just before the tire moves and that is your break away.
With a click type I usually just set it to 100lbs and check to see if it clicks before the tire moves. If it doesnt click I move up 5lbs at a time until I don't get a click (the reading before that is my breakaway). If it does click, I move down 5lbs at a time until it dosen't.
If your wanting to run low 11's you should have at least a 4pt roll bar. If it's done right it's not a hinderance. If you want to see them I have some pics of my 4pt I can post (when I get off work) so you can see what a nice car with nice interior looks like with with a 4pt installed. The snubber bar is an easy to install from there. No idea how to install one without a roll bar.
Will
05-04-2011, 10:17 AM
#24
Burning Brakes
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Gottcha i have both types of torque wrenches so i'll check it. If it's a low reading is that a sign that the clutch packs need replacing or is that something completely separate?
Love to see some pics of your cage setup. I am a pretty good welder so maybe this is something i can do myself. Did you buy a kit and install it or have a shop do yours?
-Caleb
Love to see some pics of your cage setup. I am a pretty good welder so maybe this is something i can do myself. Did you buy a kit and install it or have a shop do yours?
-Caleb
I check the posi clutches by jacking (only) one rear tire off the ground, then putting a TQ wrench on the outer stub axel nut (the big 36MM one). You can use a beam type (easy and prefered) or a click type (a little more time consuming) TQ wrench.
Once you have ONE rear tire off the ground, all you do is apply force to the 36mm nut until the clutches in the posi release and tire rotates. See what the deflection reading is on the TQ wrench just before the tire moves and that is your break away.
With a click type I usually just set it to 100lbs and check to see if it clicks before the tire moves. If it doesnt click I move up 5lbs at a time until I don't get a click (the reading before that is my breakaway). If it does click, I move down 5lbs at a time until it dosen't.
If your wanting to run low 11's you should have at least a 4pt roll bar. If it's done right it's not a hinderance. If you want to see them I have some pics of my 4pt I can post (when I get off work) so you can see what a nice car with nice interior looks like with with a 4pt installed. The snubber bar is an easy to install from there. No idea how to install one without a roll bar.
Will
Once you have ONE rear tire off the ground, all you do is apply force to the 36mm nut until the clutches in the posi release and tire rotates. See what the deflection reading is on the TQ wrench just before the tire moves and that is your break away.
With a click type I usually just set it to 100lbs and check to see if it clicks before the tire moves. If it doesnt click I move up 5lbs at a time until I don't get a click (the reading before that is my breakaway). If it does click, I move down 5lbs at a time until it dosen't.
If your wanting to run low 11's you should have at least a 4pt roll bar. If it's done right it's not a hinderance. If you want to see them I have some pics of my 4pt I can post (when I get off work) so you can see what a nice car with nice interior looks like with with a 4pt installed. The snubber bar is an easy to install from there. No idea how to install one without a roll bar.
Will
05-04-2011, 10:25 AM
#25
Melting Slicks
What was the limit of the C4 independent rear and dana 44 in your experience racing Jim?
What do you use now?
Fabed up ford 9 inch ?
12- bolt 8-7/8" inch Chevrolet rear?
dana 60?
Super Dana 60 by Strange Engineering?
Or a complete Mark Williams Custom Rear setup for Pro-stock style racing?
BR
What do you use now?
Fabed up ford 9 inch ?
12- bolt 8-7/8" inch Chevrolet rear?
dana 60?
Super Dana 60 by Strange Engineering?
Or a complete Mark Williams Custom Rear setup for Pro-stock style racing?
BR
I now have a 9" and 4 link with a Strange Ultra case, and Strange 35 spline race axles and spool. I haven't broke anything since going to a straight axle.
05-04-2011, 10:33 AM
#26
Safety Car
Gottcha i have both types of torque wrenches so i'll check it. If it's a low reading is that a sign that the clutch packs need replacing or is that something completely separate?
Love to see some pics of your cage setup. I am a pretty good welder so maybe this is something i can do myself. Did you buy a kit and install it or have a shop do yours?
-Caleb
Love to see some pics of your cage setup. I am a pretty good welder so maybe this is something i can do myself. Did you buy a kit and install it or have a shop do yours?
-Caleb
There is Factory TSB (I read about on a 4X4 site) for the D44 power lock and it says 45lbs minimum.... However I've seen too many Corvettes grenade the spyder gears because of a worn out clutch pack so I'm looking at replacing things a little earlier.
Just for reference, The 4.11 rear in my car right now has the stock 60K mile posi and it is currently holding 80-100lbs.
I also have built up 3.91 rear end with shimmed and tuned posi that holds 150lbs. You can buy the clutches and special shims (to make it tighter or "tune it") like this rear end has in it from Toms Differential.
I had a chassis shop in GA do the roll bar in my car.
You can buy a kit and do it yourself. A few people here have and if you do a search you'll find those threads.
After I get home I'll post photo's of my set up.
Will
05-04-2011, 10:39 AM
#27
Instructor
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When you guys say break, is it right off the line, or down track? Is it possible to easy off of the line 1.6, or higher 60 foot, and than step into somewhat safely? I have broken 1 outer stub and it was on street tires, but it was 100 foot out. I am guessing the stub was already stressed and finally twisted off.
05-04-2011, 10:54 AM
#28
Melting Slicks
I think most drivetrain breakage occures right off the starting line. I did break my D44 in half shifting into second gear though. Some guys break stuff just doing their burnouts. But the starting line is the hardest on parts.
05-04-2011, 07:07 PM
#29
Le Mans Master
I've always broke off the line during the launch. Spiders, u-joints, halfshafts, outer spindles, almost ripped the nose off the housing. I have gone to Denny's steel Nitrous shafts with spicer u-joints, Cryo'd spindles, and Eaton Trutrac posi. I check over everything after every other race.
I have almost ripped the torsion gears in half in the Eaton after about 75-100 low 1.50 60's. They replaced it under warranty saying they never had one go bad. We'll see how it holds up after the season is up.
Like said keeping the factory posi tight will help the spiders live. But I have blown them up so many times whether tight or loose, stock or cryod I lost count. I have box's of parts of posi's in the attic.
I loved the car with a stick, but couldn't deal with all the rear carnage so I converted to a auto. If I ever stop bracket racing it I may convert it back since all the parts are in the garage attic.
I have almost ripped the torsion gears in half in the Eaton after about 75-100 low 1.50 60's. They replaced it under warranty saying they never had one go bad. We'll see how it holds up after the season is up.
Like said keeping the factory posi tight will help the spiders live. But I have blown them up so many times whether tight or loose, stock or cryod I lost count. I have box's of parts of posi's in the attic.
I loved the car with a stick, but couldn't deal with all the rear carnage so I converted to a auto. If I ever stop bracket racing it I may convert it back since all the parts are in the garage attic.
05-04-2011, 07:17 PM
#30
I've always broke off the line during the launch. Spiders, u-joints, halfshafts, outer spindles, almost ripped the nose off the housing. I have gone to Denny's steel Nitrous shafts with spicer u-joints, Cryo'd spindles, and Eaton Trutrac posi. I check over everything after every other race.
I have almost ripped the torsion gears in half in the Eaton after about 75-100 low 1.50 60's. They replaced it under warranty saying they never had one go bad. We'll see how it holds up after the season is up.
Like said keeping the factory posi tight will help the spiders live. But I have blown them up so many times whether tight or loose, stock or cryod I lost count. I have box's of parts of posi's in the attic.
I loved the car with a stick, but couldn't deal with all the rear carnage so I converted to a auto. If I ever stop bracket racing it I may convert it back since all the parts are in the garage attic.
I have almost ripped the torsion gears in half in the Eaton after about 75-100 low 1.50 60's. They replaced it under warranty saying they never had one go bad. We'll see how it holds up after the season is up.
Like said keeping the factory posi tight will help the spiders live. But I have blown them up so many times whether tight or loose, stock or cryod I lost count. I have box's of parts of posi's in the attic.
I loved the car with a stick, but couldn't deal with all the rear carnage so I converted to a auto. If I ever stop bracket racing it I may convert it back since all the parts are in the garage attic.
05-04-2011, 08:05 PM
#31
Safety Car
They can't carve a corner worth chit with a solid rear axle.
There was a guy racing NCCC out of Ohio who would come to Convention with a solid rear axle, an automatic trans and his IRS + ZF6 installed in the car. After the Low & High speed AutoX events were done, he and a few friends would wrench on the car and install the solid axle and trans for the drags. Took them about 6 hours...including beer breaks. He always did well, and won the National Points Championship, too...so I guess he knew what he was doing.
Personally, I'd have left the trans alone and just swapped the rear end...but whatever floats your boat.
05-04-2011, 08:28 PM
#32
Because REAL sports cars have IRS in them...
They can't carve a corner worth chit with a solid rear axle.
There was a guy racing NCCC out of Ohio who would come to Convention with a solid rear axle, an automatic trans and his IRS + ZF6 installed in the car. After the Low & High speed AutoX events were done, he and a few friends would wrench on the car and install the solid axle and trans for the drags. Took them about 6 hours...including beer breaks. He always did well, and won the National Points Championship, too...so I guess he knew what he was doing.
Personally, I'd have left the trans alone and just swapped the rear end...but whatever floats your boat.
They can't carve a corner worth chit with a solid rear axle.
There was a guy racing NCCC out of Ohio who would come to Convention with a solid rear axle, an automatic trans and his IRS + ZF6 installed in the car. After the Low & High speed AutoX events were done, he and a few friends would wrench on the car and install the solid axle and trans for the drags. Took them about 6 hours...including beer breaks. He always did well, and won the National Points Championship, too...so I guess he knew what he was doing.
Personally, I'd have left the trans alone and just swapped the rear end...but whatever floats your boat.
I gotcha...
The used to take a straight axle rearend in the SCCA Trans Am series that ran from the 1960's to 70's and purposely bend the housing tubes straight up to some degree.
To gain rear wheel camber for high speed handling on road courses.
Was done that way on the Penske Camaros with the DZ 302 for power, M22 4- speed, and J88 disc braked equipped 8-7/8".
It obviously worked.
Those DZ 302 Camaros won many races.
Herb Adams once wrote about the pros & cons of a independent rear suspension & solid live rear axle.
He found little difference in flat out performance.
Just the independent rear was slightly more forgiving over rough bumps with a super stiff race suspension in place.
Herb Adams was a brilliant suspension engineer that worked for GM and was the creator or the T/A.
If anyone here on C4 cares.
Built right you can beat the snot out of solid rear axle over & over.
My best bet for myself and have that 57 Pontiac rear.
Cost less $$$ than trying to build up an independent rear made almost entirely of cast aluminum just to have parts break later on without notice.
A friend of mine has a 410ci too.
iron heads and sprays.
Low 8's 1/4 mile.
I have a brodix headded 410.
05-04-2011, 08:54 PM
#33
lol
I gotcha...
The used to take a straight axle rearend in the SCCA Trans Am series that ran from the 1960's to 70's and purposely bend the housing tubes straight up to some degree.
To gain rear wheel camber for high speed handling on road courses.
Was done that way on the Penske Camaros with the DZ 302 for power, M22 4- speed, and J88 disc braked equipped 8-7/8".
It obviously worked.
Those DZ 302 Camaros won many races.
Herb Adams once wrote about the pros & cons of a independent rear suspension & solid live rear axle.
He found little difference in flat out performance.
Just the independent rear was slightly more forgiving over rough bumps with a super stiff race suspension in place.
Herb Adams was a brilliant suspension engineer that worked for GM and was the creator or the T/A.
If anyone here on C4 cares.
Built right you can beat the snot out of solid rear axle over & over.
My best bet for myself and have that 57 Pontiac rear.
Cost less $$$ than trying to build up an independent rear made almost entirely of cast aluminum just to have parts break later on without notice.
A friend of mine has a 410ci too.
iron heads and sprays.
Low 8's 1/4 mile.
I have a brodix headded 410.
I gotcha...
The used to take a straight axle rearend in the SCCA Trans Am series that ran from the 1960's to 70's and purposely bend the housing tubes straight up to some degree.
To gain rear wheel camber for high speed handling on road courses.
Was done that way on the Penske Camaros with the DZ 302 for power, M22 4- speed, and J88 disc braked equipped 8-7/8".
It obviously worked.
Those DZ 302 Camaros won many races.
Herb Adams once wrote about the pros & cons of a independent rear suspension & solid live rear axle.
He found little difference in flat out performance.
Just the independent rear was slightly more forgiving over rough bumps with a super stiff race suspension in place.
Herb Adams was a brilliant suspension engineer that worked for GM and was the creator or the T/A.
If anyone here on C4 cares.
Built right you can beat the snot out of solid rear axle over & over.
My best bet for myself and have that 57 Pontiac rear.
Cost less $$$ than trying to build up an independent rear made almost entirely of cast aluminum just to have parts break later on without notice.
A friend of mine has a 410ci too.
iron heads and sprays.
Low 8's 1/4 mile.
I have a brodix headded 410.
You asked if anyone cares, and I dont. Not sure what your friend running low 8's with iron heads has to do with this thread big girl.
05-04-2011, 09:02 PM
#34
Safety Car
As promised a couple of pics of my 4pt roll bar.
Finished product.
Under construction
Attachment of the main hoop to the frame kick up.
My pinion snubber bar as seen from the front of the diff.
As to when they break.
Mine have all broken pretty much in low gear right off the line. Here is a video from last season where I exploded the halfshafts/ujoints.
Here is the aftermath.
Will
Finished product.
Under construction
Attachment of the main hoop to the frame kick up.
My pinion snubber bar as seen from the front of the diff.
As to when they break.
Mine have all broken pretty much in low gear right off the line. Here is a video from last season where I exploded the halfshafts/ujoints.
Here is the aftermath.
Will
05-04-2011, 09:32 PM
#35
Our past history together on C4 proves that you do not care for me much.
But the topic has shifted to 383 Willie's experience racing with the C4 Dana 44 rear independent diffs.
He has proven to me last night that they are not very reliable for drag use.
Your 421 that Jim built.............
after he tunes it to the hilt for you............
You will be exploding your Dana 44 or dana 36 too.
421 sbc is a very good engine.
430 is slighlty better.
Both generate tremendous big block Chevy or other BB engine style torque & HP.
Almost, but a canted valve BB Chev is still king in the GM line for all out power.
Brian
05-04-2011, 09:48 PM
#36
I know you don't.
Our past history together on C4 proves that you do not care for me much.
But the topic has shifted to 383 Willie's experience racing with the C4 Dana 44 rear independent diffs.
He has proven to me last night that they are not very reliable for drag use.
Your 421 that Jim built.............
after he tunes it to the hilt for you............
You will be exploding your Dana 44 or dana 36 too.
421 sbc is a very good engine.
430 is slighlty better.
Both generate tremendous big block Chevy or other BB engine style torque & HP.
Almost, but a canted valve BB Chev is still king in the GM line for all out power.
Brian
Our past history together on C4 proves that you do not care for me much.
But the topic has shifted to 383 Willie's experience racing with the C4 Dana 44 rear independent diffs.
He has proven to me last night that they are not very reliable for drag use.
Your 421 that Jim built.............
after he tunes it to the hilt for you............
You will be exploding your Dana 44 or dana 36 too.
421 sbc is a very good engine.
430 is slighlty better.
Both generate tremendous big block Chevy or other BB engine style torque & HP.
Almost, but a canted valve BB Chev is still king in the GM line for all out power.
Brian
I will send you a pm.
05-04-2011, 09:51 PM
#37
Burning Brakes
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Member Since: Nov 2010
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I've always broke off the line during the launch. Spiders, u-joints, halfshafts, outer spindles, almost ripped the nose off the housing. I have gone to Denny's steel Nitrous shafts with spicer u-joints, Cryo'd spindles, and Eaton Trutrac posi. I check over everything after every other race.
I have almost ripped the torsion gears in half in the Eaton after about 75-100 low 1.50 60's. They replaced it under warranty saying they never had one go bad. We'll see how it holds up after the season is up.
Like said keeping the factory posi tight will help the spiders live. But I have blown them up so many times whether tight or loose, stock or cryod I lost count. I have box's of parts of posi's in the attic.
I loved the car with a stick, but couldn't deal with all the rear carnage so I converted to a auto. If I ever stop bracket racing it I may convert it back since all the parts are in the garage attic.
I have almost ripped the torsion gears in half in the Eaton after about 75-100 low 1.50 60's. They replaced it under warranty saying they never had one go bad. We'll see how it holds up after the season is up.
Like said keeping the factory posi tight will help the spiders live. But I have blown them up so many times whether tight or loose, stock or cryod I lost count. I have box's of parts of posi's in the attic.
I loved the car with a stick, but couldn't deal with all the rear carnage so I converted to a auto. If I ever stop bracket racing it I may convert it back since all the parts are in the garage attic.
Caleb, your AFR 210 comp port heads will be here tomorrow. And I have all of Vader 86's parts to build his 398 shortblock. And I am finishing a 383 I built for a pick up truck, the guy overheated it and cracked a head. I will be busy. I am hoping to have yours near finished by next week depending on how things go.
05-04-2011, 09:59 PM
#38
Burning Brakes
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Awesome Will, beautiful setup. I love how you kept the interior of the car in stock form and very clean, looks great and exactly what i want.
If you don't mind me asking what was the total cost for that job? It would be something i would seriously consider. I'd rather break axles and u joints all day than the housing itself.
When i get this whole rear IRS out of the car and start tearing into it I'll create a thread of my progress on it. But would you mind coaching me along alittle? I'll give pics and any details you need
-Caleb
If you don't mind me asking what was the total cost for that job? It would be something i would seriously consider. I'd rather break axles and u joints all day than the housing itself.
When i get this whole rear IRS out of the car and start tearing into it I'll create a thread of my progress on it. But would you mind coaching me along alittle? I'll give pics and any details you need
-Caleb
05-04-2011, 10:44 PM
#40
Team Owner
Everywhere I drag race at 11.50 you need a 5 point cage.....