Failed inspection,,, but i want to pass
06-12-2011, 09:37 PM
#21
Race Director
I love how people from outside California criticize our pollution control efforts. I am not a liberal or a tard but I do like to breathe. I have lived in Calif for 40 years. The need for catalytic converters was obvious. There used to be a brown cloud hanging over the valleys. Air quality was part of the daily weather report. Today the air is cleaner and healthier.
My only beef with the smog laws is the visual inspections. Cars should pass or fail based on test results rather than the parts they use. But even with the visual restrictions, Corvettes can be modified for high horsepower and be fun. My 85 is pushing 500 Hp, runs clean and passes all the tests.
The OP does need to correct the problem rather than try to fight it. One does not want to end up on the gross polluter list. I'm not sure if his problem is the cats or tuning, but either way once corrected will probably improve performance.
My only beef with the smog laws is the visual inspections. Cars should pass or fail based on test results rather than the parts they use. But even with the visual restrictions, Corvettes can be modified for high horsepower and be fun. My 85 is pushing 500 Hp, runs clean and passes all the tests.
The OP does need to correct the problem rather than try to fight it. One does not want to end up on the gross polluter list. I'm not sure if his problem is the cats or tuning, but either way once corrected will probably improve performance.
Put this into my perspective..
In ohio right now there is a battle going on to get rid of the front license plate - to save money for the state.
Ive written letters, had a sit-down meeting with my rep, and made many postings on car enthusiast websites in support of this. Obviously law enforcement doesnt support it.
Whats incredible to me is that there are actually people in ohio who LIKE having a front license plate. They believe it makes them 'safer' if a 'speeding' or 'reckless driving' car has a plate on both the front and rear. Nevermind the fact that every state surrounding ohio doesnt have one and those drivers on constantly on our roads.
This is what made me go off on my rant about the libs wanting extra laws and .gov to step in and protect them from their stupid reckless-driving liberal bretheren.
Meanwhile, responsible people like myself get screwed by having to have a black corvette with an ugly buck toothed white license plate on the front.
06-12-2011, 09:40 PM
#22
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[QUOTE=SunCr;1577863079]You might post your smog numbers.
I'd scan it to verify that fueling is deadon - if not, it may not be a CAT. Your idle symptoms don't sound like a plugged up exhaust and I'd be more inclined to do some troubleshooting, but knowing what fuel delivery looks like narrows it down.QUOTE]
i am going to do some trouble shooting of the dropping idle rpms when hot... vacume and fuel pressure reading @ normal opperating temps and vacume and fuel pressure readings when the drop in rpms occurs
I'd scan it to verify that fueling is deadon - if not, it may not be a CAT. Your idle symptoms don't sound like a plugged up exhaust and I'd be more inclined to do some troubleshooting, but knowing what fuel delivery looks like narrows it down.QUOTE]
i am going to do some trouble shooting of the dropping idle rpms when hot... vacume and fuel pressure reading @ normal opperating temps and vacume and fuel pressure readings when the drop in rpms occurs
06-12-2011, 09:44 PM
#23
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I wasnt trying to knock anyone, and sometimes the .gov must step in and set some minimum standards when the vehicle manufacturers dont.
Put this into my perspective..
In ohio right now there is a battle going on to get rid of the front license plate - to save money for the state.
Ive written letters, had a sit-down meeting with my rep, and made many postings on car enthusiast websites in support of this. Obviously law enforcement doesnt support it.
Whats incredible to me is that there are actually people in ohio who LIKE having a front license plate. They believe it makes them 'safer' if a 'speeding' or 'reckless driving' car has a plate on both the front and rear. Nevermind the fact that every state surrounding ohio doesnt have one and those drivers on constantly on our roads.
This is what made me go off on my rant about the libs wanting extra laws and .gov to step in and protect them from their stupid reckless-driving liberal bretheren.
Meanwhile, responsible people like myself get screwed by having to have a black corvette with an ugly buck toothed white license plate on the front.
Put this into my perspective..
In ohio right now there is a battle going on to get rid of the front license plate - to save money for the state.
Ive written letters, had a sit-down meeting with my rep, and made many postings on car enthusiast websites in support of this. Obviously law enforcement doesnt support it.
Whats incredible to me is that there are actually people in ohio who LIKE having a front license plate. They believe it makes them 'safer' if a 'speeding' or 'reckless driving' car has a plate on both the front and rear. Nevermind the fact that every state surrounding ohio doesnt have one and those drivers on constantly on our roads.
This is what made me go off on my rant about the libs wanting extra laws and .gov to step in and protect them from their stupid reckless-driving liberal bretheren.
Meanwhile, responsible people like myself get screwed by having to have a black corvette with an ugly buck toothed white license plate on the front.
i heavily support your first post on this thread and im sure there are alot more out there that feel the same way.
06-12-2011, 10:03 PM
#24
Melting Slicks
Check the BLMs. They'll tell you if you have a fueling problem.
06-13-2011, 08:16 AM
#25
Le Mans Master
One sign of bad cats is that your exhaust smells like rotten eggs, also have you noticed a significant decrease in fuel economy? Also if you replace your cats, don't trash them, you should be able to sell them to a metal scrap shop for some decent dollars as the Platinum is worth some dollars.
06-13-2011, 11:44 AM
#26
Burning Brakes
I wish that all the people who say they want to get out of CA would just go. That would leave a lot of wide-open space for the rest of us.
Imagine cruising top-down through Yosemite without the summer traffic jams...heaven.
Imagine cruising top-down through Yosemite without the summer traffic jams...heaven.
06-13-2011, 02:13 PM
#27
Cats & Politics
Iam new to this forum and my passions where rattled today.
My fellow Americans. There's allot of truth of both side of this debate, ( Communist Occupied California? Hey, if you don't like the rules, go find another place to live! ) I don't know how anybody that is a clear thinker can say that California is not out of control. Being an American of Cuban descent I can tell you we are Living in worlds Last Hope. We have to try to work together because part of the game is to keeps us on the Hamster wheel, Arguing with each other and not focused on the real issues. Without Country first there's no Family or Corvettes, God Bless America
P.s. The air is better.
Abraham Lincoln Quote
"You cannot help the poor
by destroying the rich.
You cannot strengthen the weak
by weakening the strong.
...You cannot bring about prosperity
by discouraging thrift.
You cannot lift the wage earner up
by pulling the wage payer down.
You cannot further the brotherhood of man
by inciting class hatred.
You cannot build character and courage
by taking away people's initiative and independence.
You cannot help people permanently
by doing for them,
what they could and
should do for themselves."
-Abraham Lincoln-
My fellow Americans. There's allot of truth of both side of this debate, ( Communist Occupied California? Hey, if you don't like the rules, go find another place to live! ) I don't know how anybody that is a clear thinker can say that California is not out of control. Being an American of Cuban descent I can tell you we are Living in worlds Last Hope. We have to try to work together because part of the game is to keeps us on the Hamster wheel, Arguing with each other and not focused on the real issues. Without Country first there's no Family or Corvettes, God Bless America
P.s. The air is better.
Abraham Lincoln Quote
"You cannot help the poor
by destroying the rich.
You cannot strengthen the weak
by weakening the strong.
...You cannot bring about prosperity
by discouraging thrift.
You cannot lift the wage earner up
by pulling the wage payer down.
You cannot further the brotherhood of man
by inciting class hatred.
You cannot build character and courage
by taking away people's initiative and independence.
You cannot help people permanently
by doing for them,
what they could and
should do for themselves."
-Abraham Lincoln-
06-13-2011, 02:31 PM
#28
Instructor
In California, technically, you are not allowed to change your muffler. But I digress...
As a Californian living abroad (Colorado), I have learned something by living in other states. I like to breath, and commend CARB for trying to clean up the air. The tougher standards are fine, but the testing is a joke. From my limited experience, I would say Washington has the best test procedure. You drive up, get waived to the chassis dyno (rolling road), they put a beanbag looking item on your hood to measure RPM, lower you down on the rollers and start the test. Bottom line- your car passes or fails based on what comes out the tail pipe. They don't care what is under the hood, just what comes out the pipes.
Oh, and some counties in CA don't even have the bi-yearly smog tests. It just depends on where you live. Good luck with the exhaust. For what it is worth, I would keep away from any exhaust component that looks like an accordion. That just wrecks air flow.
(edit: On a second look, the accordion stuff are heat shields? that is ok, just not the actual pipes)
As a Californian living abroad (Colorado), I have learned something by living in other states. I like to breath, and commend CARB for trying to clean up the air. The tougher standards are fine, but the testing is a joke. From my limited experience, I would say Washington has the best test procedure. You drive up, get waived to the chassis dyno (rolling road), they put a beanbag looking item on your hood to measure RPM, lower you down on the rollers and start the test. Bottom line- your car passes or fails based on what comes out the tail pipe. They don't care what is under the hood, just what comes out the pipes.
Oh, and some counties in CA don't even have the bi-yearly smog tests. It just depends on where you live. Good luck with the exhaust. For what it is worth, I would keep away from any exhaust component that looks like an accordion. That just wrecks air flow.
(edit: On a second look, the accordion stuff are heat shields? that is ok, just not the actual pipes)
Last edited by Rag Top; 06-13-2011 at 02:34 PM.
06-13-2011, 03:11 PM
#29
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Whan your cat is bad i think the hydrocarbons are high,or at least mine was when I lived in ca.Are all the smog devices in place and was your car really hot when you smogged it,because if you have to wait and it cools down it can fail.
Tune up can help as well,get under the car and rap on the converter and see if it sounds hollow and if it does it can mean the converter substrate has failed or a melt down has occured.
Just be greatfull its not a smog only station,or gross polluter as someone else mentioned.
Tune up can help as well,get under the car and rap on the converter and see if it sounds hollow and if it does it can mean the converter substrate has failed or a melt down has occured.
Just be greatfull its not a smog only station,or gross polluter as someone else mentioned.
06-13-2011, 03:15 PM
#30
Le Mans Master
CARB does not regulate mufflers. CA Vehicle Code regulates noise which is so many DB's with in so many feet, blah, blah, blah. The Reg is generous allowing the OEM's to submit written notice that their cars meet the standard (noise) every year - how cool is that? Those who get noise violations can take a boom box to Court and at the Statutory distance, start cranking it up and ask the Officer to identify when the Decibel Level reaches or exceeds the Law. Judge's love that stuff.
Anyway, surges - which this car seems to have - are because it's getting an extra puff of air, which means the O2 adds fuel because it senses a lean condition OR an extra shot of fuel - leaky injector or crummy MAF to name a couple. Scanning it makes it so much easier. Vacuum and pressure and other methods can leave you guessing. System is designed to deliver the right amount of gas to keep it clean. It can't do that if there's garbage being fed to the ECM or if there's a bum part. Rule those out before replacing the CAT - I think it'd be nice not to have the surge and that surge has got to be cutting down on the Coolness factor.
Anyway, surges - which this car seems to have - are because it's getting an extra puff of air, which means the O2 adds fuel because it senses a lean condition OR an extra shot of fuel - leaky injector or crummy MAF to name a couple. Scanning it makes it so much easier. Vacuum and pressure and other methods can leave you guessing. System is designed to deliver the right amount of gas to keep it clean. It can't do that if there's garbage being fed to the ECM or if there's a bum part. Rule those out before replacing the CAT - I think it'd be nice not to have the surge and that surge has got to be cutting down on the Coolness factor.
06-13-2011, 07:08 PM
#31
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One sign of bad cats is that your exhaust smells like rotten eggs, also have you noticed a significant decrease in fuel economy? Also if you replace your cats, don't trash them, you should be able to sell them to a metal scrap shop for some decent dollars as the Platinum is worth some dollars.
Fuel economy has gone from decent to "i think im driving an H1 Alpha". as far as the smell of rotten eggs.... mmmm maybe but not to much...
I guess i will have to use a tech tool to read the BLMs and then go from there, thanks for the imput. couldnt i also use a infared thermometer to check the temps of the cats a cat with a significantly higher temp would sugest a blockage or partial blockage?
06-13-2011, 07:43 PM
#32
Le Mans Master
No, it would suggest that it's rich and a really rich condition would burn it up in a matter of minutes. Get your BLM's and post the smog numbers if you've got them.
06-24-2011, 06:53 PM
#34
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Result/Fix
just incase anyone stumbles accross this and wants to know what the fix was......
I changed the main catalitic converter ($180 installed) and that fixed my hot idle problem as well as passed me thourgh smog with flying colors
I changed the main catalitic converter ($180 installed) and that fixed my hot idle problem as well as passed me thourgh smog with flying colors
06-24-2011, 07:22 PM
#35
Team Owner
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St. Jude Donor '05
My only beef with the smog laws is the visual inspections. Cars should pass or fail based on test results rather than the parts they use. But even with the visual restrictions, Corvettes can be modified for high horsepower and be fun. My 85 is pushing 500 Hp, runs clean and passes all the tests.
One that gets me is no long tubes. SINCE WHEN does that generate more smog.
And yes if I could put the coin together Id get the hell out of here .
At least out of the Los Angeles basin its a rathole
06-25-2011, 03:05 AM
#36
Instructor
I've had my '90 ZF6 since Aug of 2009 and have had to have it smoged twice. The first smog was for change of ownership, it just barly passed on NOx and very clean on the rest. The 2nd smog was last March and it failed on NOx by a couple hundred points. The only difference between the 2 smogs were stock cat forward w/muffler elim's, GS wheels/315's Sumitomos, a SPEC billet flywheel/kevlar stage 2 clutch and (1) 20 minute "hyperdrive" flat out session @ Infineon Raceway (9-25-10).
My first plan was to inspect EGR (code 32)...one can hope
-Replaced EGR valve and retest...Failed NOx- a little cleaner though
-Double checked all connections found hose/plastic line to be questionable. Replaced hose, retard timing to 5* BTC, over inflate rear tires to 55psi and retest...
Passed @15, Failed NOx @25mph...getting better, not good enough!
WTH!!!
Used Snapon MODIS (scaner) to see when EGR is active, Found out it dosen't come on until over 1900 RPM...smog test RPM in 2nd/3rd gear to be 1200/1900 EGR may or may not be active during the test.
Hooked up EGR to non-ported vacuum (bypass the solenoid) and retest...passed @15 mph, still boarder line @25 (pretest). I told the guy EGR won't come on until after 2000rpm and requested to test in 1st & 2nd gear instead of 2nd & 3rd (still in range of acceptable test rpm and speed)
Finally passed!!!!
Must have lost 30hp trying to get the darn thing to pass!...
But wait, there is more!!! Califonia doesn't like old cars...they are intentionally enforcing tighter standards our beloved C4's were never designed for!!!
The standards in 2009 15/25MPH MAX are:
HC-110/85 CO%-.71/.59 NOx-772/711
Measured: HC- 25/13 CO%-.01/.01 NOx-524/494
Standards for 2011: HC-77/59 CO%-.50/.59 NOx-541/498
Measured: HC-48/18 CO%-.42/.00 NOx-279/479
California IS NOT AND WILL NOT TAKE MY VETTE from me!!!
So if I can't pass smog in OEM form, I might as well put long tubes, heads, cam, supperram, dual exhaust and get it "clean piped" from now on.
I would suggest replacing or install all 3 cats, a nice long freeway cruise for 20 miles or so befor the test, and set rear tires to +50psi. After the test remove cats (to preserve them, Ca cats are double the cost to cover the state warranty
)
Anybody eles noticed the standards are getting tighter?
My first plan was to inspect EGR (code 32)...one can hope
-Replaced EGR valve and retest...Failed NOx- a little cleaner though
-Double checked all connections found hose/plastic line to be questionable. Replaced hose, retard timing to 5* BTC, over inflate rear tires to 55psi and retest...
Passed @15, Failed NOx @25mph...getting better, not good enough!
WTH!!!
Used Snapon MODIS (scaner) to see when EGR is active, Found out it dosen't come on until over 1900 RPM...smog test RPM in 2nd/3rd gear to be 1200/1900 EGR may or may not be active during the test.
Hooked up EGR to non-ported vacuum (bypass the solenoid) and retest...passed @15 mph, still boarder line @25 (pretest). I told the guy EGR won't come on until after 2000rpm and requested to test in 1st & 2nd gear instead of 2nd & 3rd (still in range of acceptable test rpm and speed)
Finally passed!!!!
Must have lost 30hp trying to get the darn thing to pass!...
But wait, there is more!!! Califonia doesn't like old cars...they are intentionally enforcing tighter standards our beloved C4's were never designed for!!!
The standards in 2009 15/25MPH MAX are:
HC-110/85 CO%-.71/.59 NOx-772/711
Measured: HC- 25/13 CO%-.01/.01 NOx-524/494
Standards for 2011: HC-77/59 CO%-.50/.59 NOx-541/498
Measured: HC-48/18 CO%-.42/.00 NOx-279/479
California IS NOT AND WILL NOT TAKE MY VETTE from me!!!
So if I can't pass smog in OEM form, I might as well put long tubes, heads, cam, supperram, dual exhaust and get it "clean piped" from now on.
I would suggest replacing or install all 3 cats, a nice long freeway cruise for 20 miles or so befor the test, and set rear tires to +50psi. After the test remove cats (to preserve them, Ca cats are double the cost to cover the state warranty
)Anybody eles noticed the standards are getting tighter?
06-25-2011, 11:14 AM
#37
Melting Slicks
Testing requirements vary throughout the state. In my county, two sniffer tests are performed. One at idle and one at 2500 rpm. Testing is required when ownership changes and then every 2 years after that.
Max HC allowable is 120 ppm @ idle and 150 ppm @ 2500 rpm
Max CO allowable is 1.00% @ idle and 1.20% @ 2500 rpm
My car easily passed both.
The visual test verifies the cat(s), EGR, etc. are in place. Nobody crawled under my car to look at numbers on the cat. I provided the technician with copies of E.O.s for all the aftermarket parts but he never looked at them. I talked to the technician about headers. They are one of the obvious mods that won't pass without an E.O. Unfortunately, there are no approved headers for my 85.
Max HC allowable is 120 ppm @ idle and 150 ppm @ 2500 rpm
Max CO allowable is 1.00% @ idle and 1.20% @ 2500 rpm
My car easily passed both.
The visual test verifies the cat(s), EGR, etc. are in place. Nobody crawled under my car to look at numbers on the cat. I provided the technician with copies of E.O.s for all the aftermarket parts but he never looked at them. I talked to the technician about headers. They are one of the obvious mods that won't pass without an E.O. Unfortunately, there are no approved headers for my 85.
06-25-2011, 11:37 AM
#38
Race Director
My cure for the California smog test...
Trailer
Trailer
06-25-2011, 01:29 PM
#39
I don;t get how people with no dog in the fight seem to think they can offer useful input on certain subjects. To live in Ohio or Fla and comment on Ca laws and NOT have ANY clue as to why they are that way or how they got to be? Thats just showing your ***...
Like someone else stated early in this thread...40 yrs ago the air quality was TOXIC...it was so bad that I wondered how people actually survived running marathons in the LA basin. Your eyes watered, your lungs burned and your cloths actually stunk after being outdoors.
Since then, and because of the monumental effort that absolutely has been an inconvienence to some of us at times, you now can;t see the air that you breath. Its a thousand times better.
here's a few simple 'truths' on the subject while the thread is not locked for good...
Some of you want to call smog checks communism in Ca? How juvenile. Throwing politics out there as a way to vent your frustrations when you;re not offering any decent suggestions to help? Just plain bubba'ish. The OP wants to blame it on Ca and not his inability to fix his car at the time. I am glad to see that he DID indeed do what he had to and solve the problem instead of trying to deflect responsibility.
Back in the 70's you could eat the SoCal atmosphere with a spoon it was so thick..and it tasted as bad as it looked.
That old school attitude of ignorance regarding emissions equipment needs to die out and go away. I 'get it' that people will fear and doubt the things that they do not understand, but to spread their foolishness around like cold germs is ridiculous. There is NOTHING in modern emissions that robs your car of any more power than your OIL PUMP does...bet there is the same emissions equip on EVERY car thats sold thats running 400...500....even 600 HP from the factory !!
if your Corvette is soooooo fragile that it can't make it to the next stop lite with a Cat or an EGR valve, then perhaps its time to park it. If you can't afford to take care of it and maintain it, sell it. Someone out there will appreciate what it is and how it should be treated.
Just because your car is a POS and won;t pass some moderately strict rules, does that give you the right to pollute the air that sick people (everyone actually) have to breath?
Seems a little (lot) selfish to sit here and cry because you;re not maintaining your car and you think that everyone else has to suffer so you don;t have to spend $300.
Everytime I had trouble with SoCal smog test it came down to simple maint that needed to be done. Yeah, sometimes it was not cheap or easy, but again, I never felt as though I had the right to ruin someone elses next breath....
Glad to see this done and over...I just wish that people would quit insulting the efforts to make our world a little cleaner and nicer.
Fresh air is not a "liberal conspiracy"....just because you;re they one having to spend money to fix something that you can't afford to fix...
Like someone else stated early in this thread...40 yrs ago the air quality was TOXIC...it was so bad that I wondered how people actually survived running marathons in the LA basin. Your eyes watered, your lungs burned and your cloths actually stunk after being outdoors.
Since then, and because of the monumental effort that absolutely has been an inconvienence to some of us at times, you now can;t see the air that you breath. Its a thousand times better.
here's a few simple 'truths' on the subject while the thread is not locked for good...
Some of you want to call smog checks communism in Ca? How juvenile. Throwing politics out there as a way to vent your frustrations when you;re not offering any decent suggestions to help? Just plain bubba'ish. The OP wants to blame it on Ca and not his inability to fix his car at the time. I am glad to see that he DID indeed do what he had to and solve the problem instead of trying to deflect responsibility.
Back in the 70's you could eat the SoCal atmosphere with a spoon it was so thick..and it tasted as bad as it looked.
That old school attitude of ignorance regarding emissions equipment needs to die out and go away. I 'get it' that people will fear and doubt the things that they do not understand, but to spread their foolishness around like cold germs is ridiculous. There is NOTHING in modern emissions that robs your car of any more power than your OIL PUMP does...bet there is the same emissions equip on EVERY car thats sold thats running 400...500....even 600 HP from the factory !!
if your Corvette is soooooo fragile that it can't make it to the next stop lite with a Cat or an EGR valve, then perhaps its time to park it. If you can't afford to take care of it and maintain it, sell it. Someone out there will appreciate what it is and how it should be treated.
Just because your car is a POS and won;t pass some moderately strict rules, does that give you the right to pollute the air that sick people (everyone actually) have to breath?
Seems a little (lot) selfish to sit here and cry because you;re not maintaining your car and you think that everyone else has to suffer so you don;t have to spend $300.
Everytime I had trouble with SoCal smog test it came down to simple maint that needed to be done. Yeah, sometimes it was not cheap or easy, but again, I never felt as though I had the right to ruin someone elses next breath....
Glad to see this done and over...I just wish that people would quit insulting the efforts to make our world a little cleaner and nicer.
Fresh air is not a "liberal conspiracy"....just because you;re they one having to spend money to fix something that you can't afford to fix...
06-25-2011, 02:10 PM
#40
Burning Brakes
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I hope kalifornia continues to choke the heck out it's citizens. We are welcoming the companies that are deserting your state by the hundreds.
If you want that much control, then don't complain when you can't find a job because the companies have left the state because of overbearing regulations.
If you want that much control, then don't complain when you can't find a job because the companies have left the state because of overbearing regulations.