Budget 2-row radiator comparison
08-26-2012, 02:13 PM
#281
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I have an 1988 35th anniversary vette that i just changed the radiator on it with a new Champion 2 row. Its a reasonablly dry day in the NE USA at 80 degrees and sunny. When I drove it she never got hotter then 188 with oil temps of 201. I drove it only on back country roads between 30 and 60 mph because that is where she always gets hotest. She is now running 25 degress cooler then she ran with the oem radiator that was 24 years old. At start up idling for 10 minutes in my driveway she never got hotter then 177 water and 185 oil.
My only add to this thread on the install is to NOT cut the rubber grommets to move the entire unit forward or cut the top grommets at all. In the end I never cut the front at all and left the units in exactly the same spot and had zero clearance issues. I wish I never cut the top grommets because the radiator was loose and I had to add rubber strips back to help hold it in the proper position. Otherwise I think this is a very nice radiator especially for the money. Good luck.
My only add to this thread on the install is to NOT cut the rubber grommets to move the entire unit forward or cut the top grommets at all. In the end I never cut the front at all and left the units in exactly the same spot and had zero clearance issues. I wish I never cut the top grommets because the radiator was loose and I had to add rubber strips back to help hold it in the proper position. Otherwise I think this is a very nice radiator especially for the money. Good luck.
08-26-2012, 05:27 PM
#282
Race Director
Thread Starter
I've no clue what you mean by not cutting the grommets -- especially to avoid moving the unit forward.
Got any pics?
From my original post....
For reasons you'd see when installing this unit, you want the radiator as far back as possible. This provides best access to the petcock and hose tubes. I did not mind letting the radiator sit [back] against the radiator "cabinet". However, I wanted space between the radiator and condensor plus space between the condenser and front of "cabinet". By trimming the feet as marked, rubber separates the radiator and condenser. Rubber also separates the condenser with the front of the "cabinet". Modification of the rubber mounting feet provide sole control over desired mounting positions.
I would be interested to know if you maintained the same distance between the front of the radiator and the condenser. Again, pics would help!
Got any pics?
From my original post....
For reasons you'd see when installing this unit, you want the radiator as far back as possible. This provides best access to the petcock and hose tubes. I did not mind letting the radiator sit [back] against the radiator "cabinet". However, I wanted space between the radiator and condensor plus space between the condenser and front of "cabinet". By trimming the feet as marked, rubber separates the radiator and condenser. Rubber also separates the condenser with the front of the "cabinet". Modification of the rubber mounting feet provide sole control over desired mounting positions.
I would be interested to know if you maintained the same distance between the front of the radiator and the condenser. Again, pics would help!
Last edited by GREGGPENN; 08-26-2012 at 05:30 PM.
08-26-2012, 05:50 PM
#283
I've no clue what you mean by not cutting the grommets -- especially to avoid moving the unit forward.
Got any pics?
From my original post....
For reasons you'd see when installing this unit, you want the radiator as far back as possible. This provides best access to the petcock and hose tubes. I did not mind letting the radiator sit [back] against the radiator "cabinet". However, I wanted space between the radiator and condensor plus space between the condenser and front of "cabinet". By trimming the feet as marked, rubber separates the radiator and condenser. Rubber also separates the condenser with the front of the "cabinet". Modification of the rubber mounting feet provide sole control over desired mounting positions.
I would be interested to know if you maintained the same distance between the front of the radiator and the condenser. Again, pics would help!
Got any pics?
From my original post....
For reasons you'd see when installing this unit, you want the radiator as far back as possible. This provides best access to the petcock and hose tubes. I did not mind letting the radiator sit [back] against the radiator "cabinet". However, I wanted space between the radiator and condensor plus space between the condenser and front of "cabinet". By trimming the feet as marked, rubber separates the radiator and condenser. Rubber also separates the condenser with the front of the "cabinet". Modification of the rubber mounting feet provide sole control over desired mounting positions.
I would be interested to know if you maintained the same distance between the front of the radiator and the condenser. Again, pics would help!
yeah...me too.
Thats a confusing statement. On mine the mounting blocks (rubber saddles top and bottom) were exactly the thickness for the stock radiator to seat in perfectly....the new unit was about 3/8" thicker (thicker C channel frame), so that small amount of rubber had to be trimmed off the saddles so the new radiator would set down in the saddles right and rest where it should. I am unable to see how you could move it for or aft in the cabinet without tossing those saddles and their guide pins
(the non-PC term would be rubber *******)
that hold them in the exact right place in the cabinet...top and bottom..
08-26-2012, 05:54 PM
#284
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I've no clue what you mean by not cutting the grommets -- especially to avoid moving the unit forward.
Got any pics?
From my original post....
For reasons you'd see when installing this unit, you want the radiator as far back as possible. This provides best access to the petcock and hose tubes. I did not mind letting the radiator sit [back] against the radiator "cabinet". However, I wanted space between the radiator and condensor plus space between the condenser and front of "cabinet". By trimming the feet as marked, rubber separates the radiator and condenser. Rubber also separates the condenser with the front of the "cabinet". Modification of the rubber mounting feet provide sole control over desired mounting positions.
I would be interested to know if you maintained the same distance between the front of the radiator and the condenser. Again, pics would help!
Got any pics?
From my original post....
For reasons you'd see when installing this unit, you want the radiator as far back as possible. This provides best access to the petcock and hose tubes. I did not mind letting the radiator sit [back] against the radiator "cabinet". However, I wanted space between the radiator and condensor plus space between the condenser and front of "cabinet". By trimming the feet as marked, rubber separates the radiator and condenser. Rubber also separates the condenser with the front of the "cabinet". Modification of the rubber mounting feet provide sole control over desired mounting positions.
I would be interested to know if you maintained the same distance between the front of the radiator and the condenser. Again, pics would help!
Sorry i think u called them the mounting feet. in ur 1st post pic 7 you show the feet with the xx at the curved front edge you cut off. If I am understanding your post correctly where u stated
"Also, because of the extra thickness of the aftermarket radiator, the A/C condensor must move forward a bit."
I did not cut the curved front of the mounting foot, the condensor stayed where it was, i had plenty of room between the radiator and the condensor about 1" and I had the condensor sit in its OEM position and I had the radiator just about 1/4" +/- off the front of the radiator housing. I trimmed the radiator housing in a few places on the right side for better access to the drain ****, the lower trans line and the radiator cap area but only a little bit as I did not see that taking much out was needed. i have good access to the drain ****, certainly no worse then OEM.
i think if i am reading your 1st post right u cut both the top and the bottom mounting feet. I did as well except for the leading edge as mentioned above. Looking back on it i would have rather not cut the top. IMHO leaving the top the way it was OEM would have provided a little more compression to hold the radiator a bit more securely.
Sorry no pics but ceratinly not looking to state ur points of view were inproper in anyway as in general they were of great help to me. i am only making the observations that i experienced.
Thx
Last edited by desperateaudio; 08-26-2012 at 05:58 PM.
08-26-2012, 08:44 PM
#285
Race Director
Thread Starter
Sorry i think u called them the mounting feet. in ur 1st post pic 7 you show the feet with the xx at the curved front edge you cut off. If I am understanding your post correctly where u stated
"Also, because of the extra thickness of the aftermarket radiator, the A/C condensor must move forward a bit."
I did not cut the curved front of the mounting foot, the condensor stayed where it was, i had plenty of room between the radiator and the condensor about 1" and I had the condensor sit in its OEM position and I had the radiator just about 1/4" +/- off the front of the radiator housing. I trimmed the radiator housing in a few places on the right side for better access to the drain ****, the lower trans line and the radiator cap area but only a little bit as I did not see that taking much out was needed. i have good access to the drain ****, certainly no worse then OEM.
i think if i am reading your 1st post right u cut both the top and the bottom mounting feet. I did as well except for the leading edge as mentioned above. Looking back on it i would have rather not cut the top. IMHO leaving the top the way it was OEM would have provided a little more compression to hold the radiator a bit more securely.
Sorry no pics but ceratinly not looking to state ur points of view were inproper in anyway as in general they were of great help to me. i am only making the observations that i experienced.
Thx
"Also, because of the extra thickness of the aftermarket radiator, the A/C condensor must move forward a bit."
I did not cut the curved front of the mounting foot, the condensor stayed where it was, i had plenty of room between the radiator and the condensor about 1" and I had the condensor sit in its OEM position and I had the radiator just about 1/4" +/- off the front of the radiator housing. I trimmed the radiator housing in a few places on the right side for better access to the drain ****, the lower trans line and the radiator cap area but only a little bit as I did not see that taking much out was needed. i have good access to the drain ****, certainly no worse then OEM.
i think if i am reading your 1st post right u cut both the top and the bottom mounting feet. I did as well except for the leading edge as mentioned above. Looking back on it i would have rather not cut the top. IMHO leaving the top the way it was OEM would have provided a little more compression to hold the radiator a bit more securely.
Sorry no pics but ceratinly not looking to state ur points of view were inproper in anyway as in general they were of great help to me. i am only making the observations that i experienced.
Thx
First of all, you bought a 2-row (1" dual row) Champion radiator, right?
Anything you could do to increase the spacing between the condenser and radiator should be beneficial to cooling. Because it would (as SunCr says it) provide more air cooling space before the "condenser" air hit the radiator.
So, if you didn't cut the front of the feet, were you able to create a larger gap between the radiator and condenser? For example, did you mount the radiator [all the way] in the back of the radiator housing -- while mounting the condenser [all the way] in the front of the radiator housing? (I called this a cabinet earlier). If so, I agree that would be the best for the reason stated above. It would lower heat soak(?) between the two units. (Help me with a better term here.)
08-27-2012, 08:50 PM
#286
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No offense taken. All comments on this subject are appreciated!
First of all, you bought a 2-row (1" dual row) Champion radiator, right?
Anything you could do to increase the spacing between the condenser and radiator should be beneficial to cooling. Because it would (as SunCr says it) provide more air cooling space before the "condenser" air hit the radiator.
So, if you didn't cut the front of the feet, were you able to create a larger gap between the radiator and condenser? For example, did you mount the radiator [all the way] in the back of the radiator housing -- while mounting the condenser [all the way] in the front of the radiator housing? (I called this a cabinet earlier). If so, I agree that would be the best for the reason stated above. It would lower heat soak(?) between the two units. (Help me with a better term here.)
First of all, you bought a 2-row (1" dual row) Champion radiator, right?
Anything you could do to increase the spacing between the condenser and radiator should be beneficial to cooling. Because it would (as SunCr says it) provide more air cooling space before the "condenser" air hit the radiator.
So, if you didn't cut the front of the feet, were you able to create a larger gap between the radiator and condenser? For example, did you mount the radiator [all the way] in the back of the radiator housing -- while mounting the condenser [all the way] in the front of the radiator housing? (I called this a cabinet earlier). If so, I agree that would be the best for the reason stated above. It would lower heat soak(?) between the two units. (Help me with a better term here.)
Right now i have 1" between them so I should be fine. Yes the radiator is within say 1/6" off the back of the housing and the condensor is in the OEM position again as above 1" apart. Ran it today and the afternoon here in the NE was cool so out on the high for the first time with the new radiator never got above 155 water 180 oil.
08-27-2012, 10:23 PM
#287
Race Director
Thread Starter
Hmmmm....I wonder if the 88 radiator cabinet is different.
Mine is also all the way at the back. You can see (by the feet cutouts) that I ended up with less than 1" between. You can also see I moved the condenser forward. I had to so I could get SOME gap.
I'm thinking the only way I could have gotten a whole inch would have been to move the condenser all the way to the front -- which would have meant cutting off MORE of the front of the feet -- not less.
Make sense?
Mine is also all the way at the back. You can see (by the feet cutouts) that I ended up with less than 1" between. You can also see I moved the condenser forward. I had to so I could get SOME gap.
I'm thinking the only way I could have gotten a whole inch would have been to move the condenser all the way to the front -- which would have meant cutting off MORE of the front of the feet -- not less.
Make sense?
08-28-2012, 03:19 AM
#288
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Hmmmm....I wonder if the 88 radiator cabinet is different.
Mine is also all the way at the back. You can see (by the feet cutouts) that I ended up with less than 1" between. You can also see I moved the condenser forward. I had to so I could get SOME gap.
I'm thinking the only way I could have gotten a whole inch would have been to move the condenser all the way to the front -- which would have meant cutting off MORE of the front of the feet -- not less.
Make sense?
Mine is also all the way at the back. You can see (by the feet cutouts) that I ended up with less than 1" between. You can also see I moved the condenser forward. I had to so I could get SOME gap.
I'm thinking the only way I could have gotten a whole inch would have been to move the condenser all the way to the front -- which would have meant cutting off MORE of the front of the feet -- not less.
Make sense?
not sure why the difference between the years but I would think if in doing this you get within 3/4" or better you would be ok.
09-06-2012, 12:00 AM
#289
Race Director
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by GREGGPENN
Anything you could do to increase the spacing between the condenser and radiator should be beneficial to cooling. Because it would (as SunCr said in another thread/) provide more air cooling space before the "condenser" air hit the radiator.
This may be the most important consideration in this thread. Why do I say this?
After 1 yr, I've tweaked my modified system all I can. But, it's not enough. Even on a 110-deg day, though the larger radiator does a much better job (than OEM), it can't handle full-bore A/C at an idle.
That's the only problem.
Without the A/C running, the car can do anything I want. I'll maintain 190-deg temp (180-stat) running at idle for hours. Even with 100-deg temps, it'll say constant at idle. At any speed, the temps will drop. Perfect!
Then, I turn on the A/C.
It still does great -- for the most part. Just not at idle.
Why is that?
I installed a new aux fan switch that kicks it on at 219-deg (probably 210-ish at the stat). Remember cylinder head temps -- where the dash display is looking -- the water temps are nearly 10-degrees hotter. And, it works perfectly. The problem is...the temps don't stop climbing. It's possible they slow...but I have to think the issue is the condenser-to-radiator spacing. Why?
If cfm is increased -- with the addition of the aux fan flow -- cooling should increase. Without it running, the climb (at idle) is very slow, but deliberate. It'll gain about 1 degree per 30-seconds. (In 5-minutes, it'll gain 10 degrees.)
Surely that's "close enough" to a coherent system that an additional fan could reverse that slide. But, it can't. Again, why?
I never really thought about it before AND I really couldn't have put the radiator/condenser much further apart w/o modifying their housing. But, it sounds like I should.
I think the engine (and compression) I'm running now is hotter than most. Higher compression with a smallish cam is not the norm. It builds a lot of cylinder pressure in the lower rpms -- where cooling is hardest (at least IMO).
Hardcore racers also tend to delete their A/C -- and wouldn't have any issue from it. In fact, neither would I -- if I took it out. But, I like it too much and I don't run for pinks. I run for red lights.
At this point, I'm not sure whether more cfms or a wider spacing of the radiator/condenser are called for. Maybe I should ask that question? But, I think I know the answer(s).
Some will blame the radiator and others the cam. Others the builder and even the tune. But the issue isn't present w/o the A/C running.
I've considered that the 23-yr-old condenser just won't "breath" as well as new. IOW, it won't let enough air through to the radiator. With the bigger demands of a high-compression 383, that may be true. If you blow hard enough, that could be fixed. A bigger fan may just fix it. I know of a 3k cfm unit that's supposed to be a quiet as stock. And, the price it right -- though I'd have to do some modifications. No problem...been there, done that.
As pointed out in this thread, an electric waterpump could be the solution. It circulates water better at idle. If water speed is the issue, then I have to wonder about opening up my thermostat for better flow. The 3 oval holes on the back could be enlarged. Maybe that would be enough -- and I should try it? Hmmm.... It's a thought.
But, maybe the least expensive option is that radiator-to-condenser gap. I think it just might be a "biggey". Until SunCr mentioned it, I never really thought about how much "condenser-ejected" air might cool down even with an extra 1/2-1" of spacing. I was thinking 1/2 or 1 1/2", there right next to each other. How much could it cool off?
That's the big question for everyone and I'm glad desperateaudio got me thinking about it. Not necessarily because that's what I'm gonna do next, but I think it really might be a big consideration.
Maybe one of our thermo-engineering gurus might pop in and address the formula for this subject. I think it would be interesting.
So, consider this yourselves when looking into this modification. It might just be more important than you think.
(And, I still wish we could have seen some pics showing alternative ideas for mounting within the housing.)
And now...back to your regularly scheduled programming!
09-06-2012, 07:19 AM
#290
Le Mans Master
Greg, you may have already checked this, but are you sure you are not overcharged on the AC? Have you converted to 134A? If so, the charge is supposed to be less then the factory charge. One other thing, does the fan or fans on yours blow through, from the front, or does it suck through? If it blows through, is the shroud sealed well, so you are forcing the air through the radiator? Just some thoughts I had.
09-06-2012, 08:34 AM
#291
Race Director
Thread Starter
I still have the factory fans (including the AUX option). Ones a puller, the other a pusher.
My shroud is undamaged/unchanged.
And, remarkably, I still have the factory freon charge in tact -- without ever having a freon (re)fill. Still blows ice-cold air...better than most.
Before the 383, the temps did creep up -- as now, but the aux fan always brought the temps right back down. Of course, the factory config let it get up into the 230's before the aux fan provided assistance. Now, I'm shooting for a max temperature of 220. (Really 205 would be better with my compression)
My shroud is undamaged/unchanged.
And, remarkably, I still have the factory freon charge in tact -- without ever having a freon (re)fill. Still blows ice-cold air...better than most.
Before the 383, the temps did creep up -- as now, but the aux fan always brought the temps right back down. Of course, the factory config let it get up into the 230's before the aux fan provided assistance. Now, I'm shooting for a max temperature of 220. (Really 205 would be better with my compression)
Last edited by GREGGPENN; 09-06-2012 at 08:40 AM.
09-09-2012, 11:58 AM
#292
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This may be the most important consideration in this thread. Why do I say this?
After 1 yr, I've tweaked my modified system all I can. But, it's not enough. Even on a 110-deg day, though the larger radiator does a much better job (than OEM), it can't handle full-bore A/C at an idle.
That's the only problem.
Without the A/C running, the car can do anything I want. I'll maintain 190-deg temp (180-stat) running at idle for hours. Even with 100-deg temps, it'll say constant at idle. At any speed, the temps will drop. Perfect!
Then, I turn on the A/C.
It still does great -- for the most part. Just not at idle.
Why is that?
I installed a new aux fan switch that kicks it on at 219-deg (probably 210-ish at the stat). Remember cylinder head temps -- where the dash display is looking -- the water temps are nearly 10-degrees hotter. And, it works perfectly. The problem is...the temps don't stop climbing. It's possible they slow...but I have to think the issue is the condenser-to-radiator spacing. Why?
If cfm is increased -- with the addition of the aux fan flow -- cooling should increase. Without it running, the climb (at idle) is very slow, but deliberate. It'll gain about 1 degree per 30-seconds. (In 5-minutes, it'll gain 10 degrees.)
Surely that's "close enough" to a coherent system that an additional fan could reverse that slide. But, it can't. Again, why?
I never really thought about it before AND I really couldn't have put the radiator/condenser much further apart w/o modifying their housing. But, it sounds like I should.
I think the engine (and compression) I'm running now is hotter than most. Higher compression with a smallish cam is not the norm. It builds a lot of cylinder pressure in the lower rpms -- where cooling is hardest (at least IMO).
Hardcore racers also tend to delete their A/C -- and wouldn't have any issue from it. In fact, neither would I -- if I took it out. But, I like it too much and I don't run for pinks. I run for red lights.
At this point, I'm not sure whether more cfms or a wider spacing of the radiator/condenser are called for. Maybe I should ask that question? But, I think I know the answer(s).
Some will blame the radiator and others the cam. Others the builder and even the tune. But the issue isn't present w/o the A/C running.
I've considered that the 23-yr-old condenser just won't "breath" as well as new. IOW, it won't let enough air through to the radiator. With the bigger demands of a high-compression 383, that may be true. If you blow hard enough, that could be fixed. A bigger fan may just fix it. I know of a 3k cfm unit that's supposed to be a quiet as stock. And, the price it right -- though I'd have to do some modifications. No problem...been there, done that.
As pointed out in this thread, an electric waterpump could be the solution. It circulates water better at idle. If water speed is the issue, then I have to wonder about opening up my thermostat for better flow. The 3 oval holes on the back could be enlarged. Maybe that would be enough -- and I should try it? Hmmm.... It's a thought.
But, maybe the least expensive option is that radiator-to-condenser gap. I think it just might be a "biggey". Until SunCr mentioned it, I never really thought about how much "condenser-ejected" air might cool down even with an extra 1/2-1" of spacing. I was thinking 1/2 or 1 1/2", there right next to each other. How much could it cool off?
That's the big question for everyone and I'm glad desperateaudio got me thinking about it. Not necessarily because that's what I'm gonna do next, but I think it really might be a big consideration.
Maybe one of our thermo-engineering gurus might pop in and address the formula for this subject. I think it would be interesting.
So, consider this yourselves when looking into this modification. It might just be more important than you think.
(And, I still wish we could have seen some pics showing alternative ideas for mounting within the housing.)
And now...back to your regularly scheduled programming!
After 1 yr, I've tweaked my modified system all I can. But, it's not enough. Even on a 110-deg day, though the larger radiator does a much better job (than OEM), it can't handle full-bore A/C at an idle.
That's the only problem.
Without the A/C running, the car can do anything I want. I'll maintain 190-deg temp (180-stat) running at idle for hours. Even with 100-deg temps, it'll say constant at idle. At any speed, the temps will drop. Perfect!
Then, I turn on the A/C.
It still does great -- for the most part. Just not at idle.
Why is that?
I installed a new aux fan switch that kicks it on at 219-deg (probably 210-ish at the stat). Remember cylinder head temps -- where the dash display is looking -- the water temps are nearly 10-degrees hotter. And, it works perfectly. The problem is...the temps don't stop climbing. It's possible they slow...but I have to think the issue is the condenser-to-radiator spacing. Why?
If cfm is increased -- with the addition of the aux fan flow -- cooling should increase. Without it running, the climb (at idle) is very slow, but deliberate. It'll gain about 1 degree per 30-seconds. (In 5-minutes, it'll gain 10 degrees.)
Surely that's "close enough" to a coherent system that an additional fan could reverse that slide. But, it can't. Again, why?
I never really thought about it before AND I really couldn't have put the radiator/condenser much further apart w/o modifying their housing. But, it sounds like I should.
I think the engine (and compression) I'm running now is hotter than most. Higher compression with a smallish cam is not the norm. It builds a lot of cylinder pressure in the lower rpms -- where cooling is hardest (at least IMO).
Hardcore racers also tend to delete their A/C -- and wouldn't have any issue from it. In fact, neither would I -- if I took it out. But, I like it too much and I don't run for pinks. I run for red lights.
At this point, I'm not sure whether more cfms or a wider spacing of the radiator/condenser are called for. Maybe I should ask that question? But, I think I know the answer(s).
Some will blame the radiator and others the cam. Others the builder and even the tune. But the issue isn't present w/o the A/C running.
I've considered that the 23-yr-old condenser just won't "breath" as well as new. IOW, it won't let enough air through to the radiator. With the bigger demands of a high-compression 383, that may be true. If you blow hard enough, that could be fixed. A bigger fan may just fix it. I know of a 3k cfm unit that's supposed to be a quiet as stock. And, the price it right -- though I'd have to do some modifications. No problem...been there, done that.
As pointed out in this thread, an electric waterpump could be the solution. It circulates water better at idle. If water speed is the issue, then I have to wonder about opening up my thermostat for better flow. The 3 oval holes on the back could be enlarged. Maybe that would be enough -- and I should try it? Hmmm.... It's a thought.
But, maybe the least expensive option is that radiator-to-condenser gap. I think it just might be a "biggey". Until SunCr mentioned it, I never really thought about how much "condenser-ejected" air might cool down even with an extra 1/2-1" of spacing. I was thinking 1/2 or 1 1/2", there right next to each other. How much could it cool off?
That's the big question for everyone and I'm glad desperateaudio got me thinking about it. Not necessarily because that's what I'm gonna do next, but I think it really might be a big consideration.
Maybe one of our thermo-engineering gurus might pop in and address the formula for this subject. I think it would be interesting.
So, consider this yourselves when looking into this modification. It might just be more important than you think.
(And, I still wish we could have seen some pics showing alternative ideas for mounting within the housing.)
And now...back to your regularly scheduled programming!
Well now its been several weeks since the new rad install and although she is running cooler I agree that in traffic at a stand still with a hot motor that has been running strong for a period of time prior to the stand still the car still gets hot, albeit not as hot as previous tothe rad replacement but certainly up into the low 220's.
I am sure at a stand still an electric WP would move water better and you would likely get s few degrees less heat from that but I doubt it would get you a 10 or 15 degree reduction but I may be wrong. Also I agree the condensor in ceratinly causing issues regardless of if the AC is on or not solely by the fact it impedes air flow a considerable amount. I have not gotten around to fixing my AC system yet so I cannot say what heat is created there by that system but I am sure it would considerable.
I feel that before I get the AC system fixed I will likely add either a tranny cooler or a bigger oil pan and possibly both over this winter to try and bring the temps in the engine down a few more degrees, as well as help the tranny by reducing heat there. Certainly cannot hurt!
Further I have insulated my floors and tunnel but heat still makes its way into the cockpit at a good volume as these cars just run hot. I am giving great consideration to putting more heat reflectors into the tunnel itself to see if that abates the heat intrusion. My reasoning on this is that I would then consider removing my AC as I am not a fan in general and I am sure the cooling system will only benefit from not having the condensor in the line.
I will also considering moving the condensor to another location but the thinking on that is still on going.
Generally when I drive my car hard its on the highway or on a back country road early in the morning when I feel I can use the road similar to a road course. I avoid traffic or driving it when I know traffic is going to be a big part of the likely outcome.
Last edited by desperateaudio; 09-09-2012 at 12:06 PM.
09-09-2012, 12:11 PM
#293
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In general I agree 215 to 220 is a good high point not to exceed if you can help it. My previous post of the low 220's came about after the 2nd puller fan came on at 230 and brought the temps down to 220... 223 or so and kept them there even if I stood dead still in traffic on a hot day on the roadway.
09-10-2012, 12:58 AM
#294
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Have any of you installed the dual fan setup on an 84-87 I got the dewitts radiator and I also got the side by side fan setup for the later model but Im gonna have to customize things to make it fit the brackets are not a direct fit
09-11-2012, 12:52 AM
#295
Race Director
Thread Starter
Further I have insulated my floors and tunnel but heat still makes its way into the cockpit at a good volume as these cars just run hot. I am giving great consideration to putting more heat reflectors into the tunnel itself to see if that abates the heat intrusion. My reasoning on this is that I would then consider removing my AC as I am not a fan in general and I am sure the cooling system will only benefit from not having the condensor in the line.
I will also considering moving the condensor to another location but the thinking on that is still on going.
I will also considering moving the condensor to another location but the thinking on that is still on going.
I wonder if tilting the condenser outward at the bottom is a possibility? IOW, so air can get under (bypass) it and go straight thru the radiator. I know a bit can go around the sides...but it's not enough.
Another thought is that any 2-row unit may be harder to pull air thru. It's thicker anyway. Maybe that's why so many "radiator-upgraders" also end up looking to fan upgrades afterwards? Or maybe it's the issue with the closer condenser-to-radiator gap?
Last edited by GREGGPENN; 09-11-2012 at 09:23 AM.
08-05-2014, 12:25 AM
#296
I have a stock radiator in my 88 convert. and of course as the L-98 will do, it runs hot. I did some checking on radiators trying to figure out which radiator to use. I live in Az where ambient temps hit 117-120 and pavement temp about 150 so there is nothing but heat out here. Due to financial reasons I have to wait until this fall before replacing my rad. so presently my driving is somewhat limited. I have talked to Tom DeWitt about my situation and I think that's the route to go for me. He makes all of his own in house. I am afraid of anything that comes out of China anymore. Just MHO!!!
Tommy
Tommy
06-05-2016, 11:37 AM
#297
Radiator Needed - Quick Ques on Champion Radiator
Hi Gregg,
I know this post is old so I'm not sure if your still following this or not but hopefully either yourself, or one of the other members who installed a Champion radiator in a C4 will reply to this. I have a 92 Corvette LT1 & need to replace my factory radiator due to a crack/leak on 1 of the end tanks. I have spent almost a week researching an option while my car just sits & am leaning towards the Champion radiator; I just have a few quick questions regarding the fit/install of the Champion radiator if you don't mind answering. My car is completely stock and the radiator is only being replaced due to the leak & I am torn between installing another AC Delco radiator with the plastic tanks or the Champion 2-row aluminum radiator like you installed. I'm sure OEM would work for me as I probably won't have the car by the time the tank cracks again, however, if I am going to replace it I want to go with the best option for the money & also with the possibility of some power enhancements in the near future/nothing big though. I see when you installed your Champion radiator you had to do some modifications, which, I am ok with having to cut the shroud and rubber mounts to make it fit. I already looked up specs/dimensions and see just a slight difference in overall size of the radiator vs the OEM unit. From what I found it appears as though all hose connections are basically in the same locations & both radiators have a 1-3/8" inlet port. My questions on the Champion radiator are as follows:
1. Once you fitted the Champion radiator in place, did all the existing hoses just connect right up to the radiator or are any of the hose connection ports different in size? The spec sheets I pulled off the web say the outlet hose connection on the OEM radiator is 1-11/16" (also found outlet size listed as 1-3/4" on a different site). The Champion radiator spec sheet says the outlet hose connection is 1-5/8" O.D. Compared to the 1-11/16" OD on the OEM radiator, the Champion's port is only 1/16 of an inch smaller then the OEM so I'm guessing hose size should be ok but just want to verify.
2. Goes along with ques 1 regarding the rest of the hose connections / just want to verify that my existing hoses will fit right onto the radiator and that I don't need to "adapt" the hoses and/or cut them to fit.
3. My car is an automatic, do I need to specify this when ordering the radiator? ALso, regarding the transmission oil cooler connections on the radiator; the OEM spec sheet shows the trans oil cooler is 11-1/2" 3-plate and the specs on the Champion radiator trans cooler reads as 1/2 X 20 straight thread, G 1/4. This maybe a stupid question but what is the difference in the two, if any? I'm assuming it's the same size and thread just worded differently by the two manufacturers. Can you verify this and/or explain the difference, if any?
4. In your opinion, is it even worth the trouble modifying the mounts & shroud to install the Champion radiator rather then just installing a factory replacement w/the plastic tank ends that would just be a direct swap? As I mentioned the car is all stock currently. In a couple years if I cannot afford to upgrade to a newer model Corvette then I plan on rebuilding the motor, boring it out w/forged Pistons, etc. If done, my goal would be to increase horsepower by at least 100hp & approx increase torque by 100, give or take (maybe add a small nitrous setup as well). I do like the idea of using an aluminum radiator espically for the price (figure if I do increase power I'll need to upgrade to an aluminum radiator anyways) & idle temp is an issue for me currently as it is for many C4 owners, but if it's going to be more trouble than it's worth I'll just put an OEM replacement in. I'm just looking for another opinion other than my own. I think it's worth the extra install time as the Champion radiator is actually less money then the AC Delco replacement radiator & that an aluminum radiator would be better for the car vs the stock radiator w/the plastic end tanks that from what I hear are known to leak. Also, if I end up increasing hp/torque the Champion radiator will keep me covered as it's rated for around 500hp per the manufacturers spec sheet. Any thoughts/comments on this?
I know this is a long shot as this thread is about 4 years old now since last used, but by chance maybe yourself and/or another user who also installed a Champion radiator are still following this thread and see my post I really need your help! I am stuck at the moment & am missing out on some good weather w/the car parked so any/all information that can be provided is more than welcomed!
Thanks,
Steve
I know this post is old so I'm not sure if your still following this or not but hopefully either yourself, or one of the other members who installed a Champion radiator in a C4 will reply to this. I have a 92 Corvette LT1 & need to replace my factory radiator due to a crack/leak on 1 of the end tanks. I have spent almost a week researching an option while my car just sits & am leaning towards the Champion radiator; I just have a few quick questions regarding the fit/install of the Champion radiator if you don't mind answering. My car is completely stock and the radiator is only being replaced due to the leak & I am torn between installing another AC Delco radiator with the plastic tanks or the Champion 2-row aluminum radiator like you installed. I'm sure OEM would work for me as I probably won't have the car by the time the tank cracks again, however, if I am going to replace it I want to go with the best option for the money & also with the possibility of some power enhancements in the near future/nothing big though. I see when you installed your Champion radiator you had to do some modifications, which, I am ok with having to cut the shroud and rubber mounts to make it fit. I already looked up specs/dimensions and see just a slight difference in overall size of the radiator vs the OEM unit. From what I found it appears as though all hose connections are basically in the same locations & both radiators have a 1-3/8" inlet port. My questions on the Champion radiator are as follows:
1. Once you fitted the Champion radiator in place, did all the existing hoses just connect right up to the radiator or are any of the hose connection ports different in size? The spec sheets I pulled off the web say the outlet hose connection on the OEM radiator is 1-11/16" (also found outlet size listed as 1-3/4" on a different site). The Champion radiator spec sheet says the outlet hose connection is 1-5/8" O.D. Compared to the 1-11/16" OD on the OEM radiator, the Champion's port is only 1/16 of an inch smaller then the OEM so I'm guessing hose size should be ok but just want to verify.
2. Goes along with ques 1 regarding the rest of the hose connections / just want to verify that my existing hoses will fit right onto the radiator and that I don't need to "adapt" the hoses and/or cut them to fit.
3. My car is an automatic, do I need to specify this when ordering the radiator? ALso, regarding the transmission oil cooler connections on the radiator; the OEM spec sheet shows the trans oil cooler is 11-1/2" 3-plate and the specs on the Champion radiator trans cooler reads as 1/2 X 20 straight thread, G 1/4. This maybe a stupid question but what is the difference in the two, if any? I'm assuming it's the same size and thread just worded differently by the two manufacturers. Can you verify this and/or explain the difference, if any?
4. In your opinion, is it even worth the trouble modifying the mounts & shroud to install the Champion radiator rather then just installing a factory replacement w/the plastic tank ends that would just be a direct swap? As I mentioned the car is all stock currently. In a couple years if I cannot afford to upgrade to a newer model Corvette then I plan on rebuilding the motor, boring it out w/forged Pistons, etc. If done, my goal would be to increase horsepower by at least 100hp & approx increase torque by 100, give or take (maybe add a small nitrous setup as well). I do like the idea of using an aluminum radiator espically for the price (figure if I do increase power I'll need to upgrade to an aluminum radiator anyways) & idle temp is an issue for me currently as it is for many C4 owners, but if it's going to be more trouble than it's worth I'll just put an OEM replacement in. I'm just looking for another opinion other than my own. I think it's worth the extra install time as the Champion radiator is actually less money then the AC Delco replacement radiator & that an aluminum radiator would be better for the car vs the stock radiator w/the plastic end tanks that from what I hear are known to leak. Also, if I end up increasing hp/torque the Champion radiator will keep me covered as it's rated for around 500hp per the manufacturers spec sheet. Any thoughts/comments on this?
I know this is a long shot as this thread is about 4 years old now since last used, but by chance maybe yourself and/or another user who also installed a Champion radiator are still following this thread and see my post I really need your help! I am stuck at the moment & am missing out on some good weather w/the car parked so any/all information that can be provided is more than welcomed!
Thanks,
Steve
06-06-2016, 01:34 PM
#298
Team Owner
Member Since: Sep 2003
Location: Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction.
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St. Jude '03-'04-'05-'06-'07-'08-'09-'10-'11-'12-'13-'14-'15-'16-'17-'18-‘19-'20-'21-'22-'23-'24
A radiator is a radiator. Yours may need some modifications to fit as Greg has indicated.
Since the champion is a Chinese product you may run into mm vs decimal dimension differences.
If this worries you spend the extra money for a DeWitts if you must.
Since the champion is a Chinese product you may run into mm vs decimal dimension differences.
If this worries you spend the extra money for a DeWitts if you must.
06-06-2016, 03:49 PM
#299
Team Owner
Member Since: Oct 2004
Location: altered state
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St. Jude Donor '05
Support whats left of American companies 
$500 for a radiator isnt exactly affordable but when the time comes my truck is getting a Dewitts if they even make one for it.
More we spend over there the less jobs we have here.
$500 for a radiator isnt exactly affordable but when the time comes my truck is getting a Dewitts if they even make one for it.
More we spend over there the less jobs we have here.
Last edited by cv67; 06-06-2016 at 03:52 PM.
05-13-2017, 01:08 PM
#300
Advanced
Champion Radiator
I finally decided I couldn't postpone a new radiator any longer. With the 100-deg temps, my 383 wanted to run up too high [temps] with the A/C on. So, I started looking around at the radiator options.
After calling all the [two 1" row] budget radiator options I found three options out there: Silla, ECP, and Champion.
The Silla option is sold through several retailers with various badging. More importantly, is the thinnest of the 2-row cores. It's too thin to have two 1" rows like I was considering. From most retailers, this radiator typically sells in the $140-$150 range. (The Silla might also be marketed as "Muscle Road" and "Genesis". Pics make them look the same to me.)
Silla-Muscle Road
Champion just came out with a new option, the EC829. However, it's badged with the "American Eagle" brand. Maybe there's a separate arm of the company that deals with Chinese manufacturing. According to Champion, this radiator is designed in the US and made in China. It's a 2-row double-1" core radiator that's currently selling in the $170-$180 range. (This is the one I bought and installed.)
EngineeringCoolingProducts also sells a double 1" row radiator under the model number ECP829. The owner of this company would not provide phone contact information and mis-represented the differences between his radiator and the Champion line. Plus, he charges about $40 more for his radiators. ($209 + s/h) And, he adds shipping. He said the Champion radiators were painted silver as a sealing step for their cheap welds. Because I ended up with the Champion (AE) unit, I know this isn't true. He also said his hose necks were longer. When you compare the pics, you'll see it's either not true or insignificant. Between the higher cost and unwillingness to provide phone contact info, I decided against this option. I couldn't identify a single advantage for the higher price/risk.
With the exception of the American Eagle, I am reposting radiator pics from web pages.
So, again, I purchased the American Eagle. It's cost was in the middle, but it was the least expensive two 1" row radiator out there. Champion appears to be a very large, well-known radiator company. That helped in my decision making process. BTW...I also asked them about their 3-row radiator -- which has the same physical dimensions as the two row unit. Because of space limitation in the front of our Corvettes, their 3-row model could not be expanded beyond the 2-row dimensions. As such, Champion recommended I save my money and purchase the 2-row unit as it's cooling would likely equal the 3-row unit.
So...first things first:
Here's a comparison of stock vs American Eagle (Champion) EC829:
In the pics above, you can see a 2-row radiator is much wider than stock. You can also see it's a bit shorter. Neither difference inhibits installation. But, you must make some minor alterations.
There are four mounting "feet" that look like this. Two sit underneath and two sit on top. (Notice the magic marker for later reference)
With the OEM radiator, there are rails that sit in these rubber feet:
With the aftermarket radiator there are no rails...
Also, because of the extra thickness of the aftermarket radiator, the A/C condensor must move forward a bit. Overall, there is a 5.5" front-to-read space for the radiator and condenser to sit. The combined thickness of the radiator and condensor are about 4.5".
For reasons you'd see when installing this unit, you want the radiator as far back as possible. This provides best access to the petcock and hose tubes. I did not mind letting the radiator sit against the radiator "cabinet". However, I wanted space between the radiator and condensor plus space between the condenser and front of "cabinet". By trimming the feet as marked, rubber separates the radiator and condenser. Rubber also separates the condenser with the front of the "cabinet". Modification of the rubber mounting feet provide sole control over desired mounting positions. (If you refer back to the pic of the feet, I cut out the areas marked with an "X" to alter where the radiator and condenser sit.) After cutting those areas out, you end up with this...
The cuts were designed so the condenser gets moved forward from stock location. The amount removed from the curved end of the feet is the amount moved forward. You'll also see a small "rib" used to separate the condenser and radiator. That's to prevent them from vibrating/banging against each other.
With the bottom feet in position, I set the radiator and condensor in place...
Finally, I set the top rubber feet in position, I test fitted the shroud. I soon discovered the cap would not turn correctly due to interference with the shroud. I used a saber saw and file to modify the shroud and allow the cap to turn....
The cap is not screwed on in the picture above, but it's placed to demonstrate where contact would occur. When the job was complete, the feet and the modifications to the neck were the only changes required to install a much bigger radiator in the factory space.
With great haste, I filled it (with green propoylene glycol and distilled water). I drove it around the block to see the result. As before, the engine quickly rose to temp. After the thermostat opened, it stayed in the mid 190's. When I ran it hard, it rose temporarily to 203...then fell right back to 195. I took it home and listened for the fans. The front fan was running. Because it's set to 195, I'll have to see if it ever shuts off! But, my idle temp problem appears cured. With the OEM unit, temps rose at idle (apparently w/o a ceiling). With this American Eagle unit, they rose a bit more slowly. Then, when the rear fan kicked on, the temps dropped back down. YEAH!!! With the OEM radiator, this didn't happen.
With the OEM radiator and a 383, I could not let the car sit and idle very long. Within a few minutes, it would hit 230 and keep climbing. Those aren't temps I can accept with 10.25:1SCR/8.25:1DCR compression. My target temps are 180-205. With the new radiator, my range was 195-208.
I still need to confirm if I stay below 210 with a longer run on a hot day with the A/C running. One of these days, I'll probably go back and buy another 180-stat. (Either my stat is defective (too high) or my guages are off. That's because I bought a 180-stat. It's never run in the 180's). Though I purchased a (Robert Shaw) Mr.Gasket hi-flow style, I'm not convinced it's fully open at 180. Maybe I need to run a poll or try a 160-stat JUST to see if I can get temps in the 180's. (Not sure how I'll proceed on that yet...195-208 is acceptable. But, I'd probably reprogram my front fan to come on around 203.
Figuring out the actual temp vs the display will be another step of the process. I'll see if scans match the display (so I know what the ECM is "seeing".)
After calling all the [two 1" row] budget radiator options I found three options out there: Silla, ECP, and Champion.
The Silla option is sold through several retailers with various badging. More importantly, is the thinnest of the 2-row cores. It's too thin to have two 1" rows like I was considering. From most retailers, this radiator typically sells in the $140-$150 range. (The Silla might also be marketed as "Muscle Road" and "Genesis". Pics make them look the same to me.)
Silla-Muscle Road
Champion just came out with a new option, the EC829. However, it's badged with the "American Eagle" brand. Maybe there's a separate arm of the company that deals with Chinese manufacturing. According to Champion, this radiator is designed in the US and made in China. It's a 2-row double-1" core radiator that's currently selling in the $170-$180 range. (This is the one I bought and installed.)
EngineeringCoolingProducts also sells a double 1" row radiator under the model number ECP829. The owner of this company would not provide phone contact information and mis-represented the differences between his radiator and the Champion line. Plus, he charges about $40 more for his radiators. ($209 + s/h) And, he adds shipping. He said the Champion radiators were painted silver as a sealing step for their cheap welds. Because I ended up with the Champion (AE) unit, I know this isn't true. He also said his hose necks were longer. When you compare the pics, you'll see it's either not true or insignificant. Between the higher cost and unwillingness to provide phone contact info, I decided against this option. I couldn't identify a single advantage for the higher price/risk.
With the exception of the American Eagle, I am reposting radiator pics from web pages.
So, again, I purchased the American Eagle. It's cost was in the middle, but it was the least expensive two 1" row radiator out there. Champion appears to be a very large, well-known radiator company. That helped in my decision making process. BTW...I also asked them about their 3-row radiator -- which has the same physical dimensions as the two row unit. Because of space limitation in the front of our Corvettes, their 3-row model could not be expanded beyond the 2-row dimensions. As such, Champion recommended I save my money and purchase the 2-row unit as it's cooling would likely equal the 3-row unit.
So...first things first:
Here's a comparison of stock vs American Eagle (Champion) EC829:
In the pics above, you can see a 2-row radiator is much wider than stock. You can also see it's a bit shorter. Neither difference inhibits installation. But, you must make some minor alterations.
There are four mounting "feet" that look like this. Two sit underneath and two sit on top. (Notice the magic marker for later reference)
With the OEM radiator, there are rails that sit in these rubber feet:
With the aftermarket radiator there are no rails...
Also, because of the extra thickness of the aftermarket radiator, the A/C condensor must move forward a bit. Overall, there is a 5.5" front-to-read space for the radiator and condenser to sit. The combined thickness of the radiator and condensor are about 4.5".
For reasons you'd see when installing this unit, you want the radiator as far back as possible. This provides best access to the petcock and hose tubes. I did not mind letting the radiator sit against the radiator "cabinet". However, I wanted space between the radiator and condensor plus space between the condenser and front of "cabinet". By trimming the feet as marked, rubber separates the radiator and condenser. Rubber also separates the condenser with the front of the "cabinet". Modification of the rubber mounting feet provide sole control over desired mounting positions. (If you refer back to the pic of the feet, I cut out the areas marked with an "X" to alter where the radiator and condenser sit.) After cutting those areas out, you end up with this...
The cuts were designed so the condenser gets moved forward from stock location. The amount removed from the curved end of the feet is the amount moved forward. You'll also see a small "rib" used to separate the condenser and radiator. That's to prevent them from vibrating/banging against each other.
With the bottom feet in position, I set the radiator and condensor in place...
Finally, I set the top rubber feet in position, I test fitted the shroud. I soon discovered the cap would not turn correctly due to interference with the shroud. I used a saber saw and file to modify the shroud and allow the cap to turn....
The cap is not screwed on in the picture above, but it's placed to demonstrate where contact would occur. When the job was complete, the feet and the modifications to the neck were the only changes required to install a much bigger radiator in the factory space.
With great haste, I filled it (with green propoylene glycol and distilled water). I drove it around the block to see the result. As before, the engine quickly rose to temp. After the thermostat opened, it stayed in the mid 190's. When I ran it hard, it rose temporarily to 203...then fell right back to 195. I took it home and listened for the fans. The front fan was running. Because it's set to 195, I'll have to see if it ever shuts off! But, my idle temp problem appears cured. With the OEM unit, temps rose at idle (apparently w/o a ceiling). With this American Eagle unit, they rose a bit more slowly. Then, when the rear fan kicked on, the temps dropped back down. YEAH!!! With the OEM radiator, this didn't happen.
With the OEM radiator and a 383, I could not let the car sit and idle very long. Within a few minutes, it would hit 230 and keep climbing. Those aren't temps I can accept with 10.25:1SCR/8.25:1DCR compression. My target temps are 180-205. With the new radiator, my range was 195-208.
I still need to confirm if I stay below 210 with a longer run on a hot day with the A/C running. One of these days, I'll probably go back and buy another 180-stat. (Either my stat is defective (too high) or my guages are off. That's because I bought a 180-stat. It's never run in the 180's). Though I purchased a (Robert Shaw) Mr.Gasket hi-flow style, I'm not convinced it's fully open at 180. Maybe I need to run a poll or try a 160-stat JUST to see if I can get temps in the 180's. (Not sure how I'll proceed on that yet...195-208 is acceptable. But, I'd probably reprogram my front fan to come on around 203.
Figuring out the actual temp vs the display will be another step of the process. I'll see if scans match the display (so I know what the ECM is "seeing".)
