why 2" headers for LSx, but not SBC/ LTx... ?
11-29-2012, 02:59 PM
#21
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Co-winner 2020 C4 of the Year - Modified
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St. Jude Donor '09-'10-'11-'12-'13-'14-'15-'16-'17-'18-'19-'20
11-29-2012, 03:09 PM
#22
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St. Jude Donor '05
I've seen posts where vendors come in announcing some new part (or idea) for the C4.
But as soon as a potential price gets out, everyone jumps all over it saying it is way too expensive.
But as soon as a potential price gets out, everyone jumps all over it saying it is way too expensive.
Very very true!!
There is still a group of owners that will pay money for good product but they are scarce....then there is the group that will tear upholstery off the pizza parlor chair ad fix their sport seat
Im working on a few pieces for the C4 that should be out in 6 mos or less and no they wont be cheap. But they will be 100% usa made great stuff. I refuse to support communism
I suspect I wont be selling a ton of them but dont care.
11-29-2012, 03:30 PM
#23
Race Director
Thread Starter
[QUOTE=dizwiz24;1582445605]What a lot of these speed shops dont understand is that (in theory) simply bolting on some AFR comp ported heads erases most performance difference between the LTx/ SBC and an LSx (save for the LS7 - which has impressive displacement, titanium rods, etc).
Not true at all. Take a LT1 stock block, put a set of AFR heads and a cam that most would consider streetable, with supporting mods, ie, tune headers etc. You will be hard pressed to get much more then 380rwhp. Then you have to deal with a stock crank, pistons, rods, that are not going to last long reving above 6200-6300 rpms.
As said earlier, its easy to get a stock shortblock LS1 with the same street manors of the equivlent LT motor in the 450hp range. Heck, Alvin at pcmforless had one, very mild, and I think it was around 450 rwhp.
My eventual build is this:
-AFR 195 comp ported heads on a 383 LTx pushing around 10.0:1 compresssion.
-D1 blower pushing around 16 psi boost
-100% methanol injection.
-ARH 1 3/4" to 1 7/8" stepped headers (tsk tsk) and 3" exhaust w/ x-pipe.
-mild cam (ie. 224/232 .580ish lift 114 LSA)
Id like to show equivalent performance as a C6 owner, with the same setup (like an ECS or A&A), on a D1 boosted / mild cam / stock-head LS3 w/ long tube headers running similar boost.
Not true at all. Take a LT1 stock block, put a set of AFR heads and a cam that most would consider streetable, with supporting mods, ie, tune headers etc. You will be hard pressed to get much more then 380rwhp. Then you have to deal with a stock crank, pistons, rods, that are not going to last long reving above 6200-6300 rpms.
As said earlier, its easy to get a stock shortblock LS1 with the same street manors of the equivlent LT motor in the 450hp range. Heck, Alvin at pcmforless had one, very mild, and I think it was around 450 rwhp.
My eventual build is this:
-AFR 195 comp ported heads on a 383 LTx pushing around 10.0:1 compresssion.
-D1 blower pushing around 16 psi boost
-100% methanol injection.
-ARH 1 3/4" to 1 7/8" stepped headers (tsk tsk) and 3" exhaust w/ x-pipe.
-mild cam (ie. 224/232 .580ish lift 114 LSA)
Id like to show equivalent performance as a C6 owner, with the same setup (like an ECS or A&A), on a D1 boosted / mild cam / stock-head LS3 w/ long tube headers running similar boost.
Ok, here in the drag section today, is something that is simular in build to what you are doing . 08 street car, bored and stroked and a turbo running 20lbs boost. On his first time out with the car he ran 155mph. I dont believe you will ever see that kind of power out of a LT series car.
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/drag...-turbo-c6.html
One last proof, go look at the LTx shoot outs and look at the LSx shoot outs. There is a big difference in what they are running.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=dizwiz24;1582445605]What a lot of these speed shops dont understand is that (in theory) simply bolting on some AFR comp ported heads erases most performance difference between the LTx/ SBC and an LSx (save for the LS7 - which has impressive displacement, titanium rods, etc).
Not true at all. Take a LT1 stock block, put a set of AFR heads and a cam that most would consider streetable, with supporting mods, ie, tune headers etc. You will be hard pressed to get much more then 380rwhp. Then you have to deal with a stock crank, pistons, rods, that are not going to last long reving above 6200-6300 rpms.
As said earlier, its easy to get a stock shortblock LS1 with the same street manors of the equivlent LT motor in the 450hp range. Heck, Alvin at pcmforless had one, very mild, and I think it was around 450 rwhp.
My eventual build is this:
-AFR 195 comp ported heads on a 383 LTx pushing around 10.0:1 compresssion.
-D1 blower pushing around 16 psi boost
-100% methanol injection.
-ARH 1 3/4" to 1 7/8" stepped headers (tsk tsk) and 3" exhaust w/ x-pipe.
-mild cam (ie. 224/232 .580ish lift 114 LSA)
Id like to show equivalent performance as a C6 owner, with the same setup (like an ECS or A&A), on a D1 boosted / mild cam / stock-head LS3 w/ long tube headers running similar boost.
Not true at all. Take a LT1 stock block, put a set of AFR heads and a cam that most would consider streetable, with supporting mods, ie, tune headers etc. You will be hard pressed to get much more then 380rwhp. Then you have to deal with a stock crank, pistons, rods, that are not going to last long reving above 6200-6300 rpms.
As said earlier, its easy to get a stock shortblock LS1 with the same street manors of the equivlent LT motor in the 450hp range. Heck, Alvin at pcmforless had one, very mild, and I think it was around 450 rwhp.
My eventual build is this:
-AFR 195 comp ported heads on a 383 LTx pushing around 10.0:1 compresssion.
-D1 blower pushing around 16 psi boost
-100% methanol injection.
-ARH 1 3/4" to 1 7/8" stepped headers (tsk tsk) and 3" exhaust w/ x-pipe.
-mild cam (ie. 224/232 .580ish lift 114 LSA)
Id like to show equivalent performance as a C6 owner, with the same setup (like an ECS or A&A), on a D1 boosted / mild cam / stock-head LS3 w/ long tube headers running similar boost.
Ok, here in the drag section today, is something that is simular in build to what you are doing . 08 street car, bored and stroked and a turbo running 20lbs boost. On his first time out with the car he ran 155mph. I dont believe you will ever see that kind of power out of a LT series car.
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/drag...-turbo-c6.html
One last proof, go look at the LTx shoot outs and look at the LSx shoot outs. There is a big difference in what they are running.[/QUOTE]
The reason so many LSx shootouts generate higher performance again boils down to:
Aftermarket support
You are acting like there is some internal evil demon inside the c4 that prevents it from being fast, no matter how much money you are willing to throw at it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpP20NFmk3c
I find it funny that so many c4 owners have jumped into this thread to bash their own car (nope. its not capable, not as good, newer cars are better...etc. ...)
Again its because of aftermarket support.
I took a welding class in hopes to make simple parts for my own car (ie. supercharger brackets) - since the aftermarket dropped the ball for us.
I might as well have posted this in corvette forum off-topic.
We'll have to agree to disagree.
11-29-2012, 03:41 PM
#24
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St. Jude Donor '05
I dont think anyones bashing them just saying it the way it really is.
Unless you are a true C4 enthusiast they are arent the most popular vette
They dont have the c3 coke bottle shape, the mod potential of the LSx etc.
They were made during some tough times, EFI wasnt perfected and we all know the C4s even with their charms and pluses had their demons most the problem threads you see these cars had brand new esp the TPI cars. The good thing is they are cheap to buy and have fun with.
A mfr has to say, pay for a run of 100-1000+ pcs at a time to resell after initial design R and D patent, molds, any rights, etc. It is friggin expensive!
May have to sell all of the first run or more just to break even, at that point hes gotta ask himself if its really worth it or sell to a crowd that he KNOWS will buy em all.
Unless you are a true C4 enthusiast they are arent the most popular vette
They dont have the c3 coke bottle shape, the mod potential of the LSx etc.
They were made during some tough times, EFI wasnt perfected and we all know the C4s even with their charms and pluses had their demons most the problem threads you see these cars had brand new esp the TPI cars. The good thing is they are cheap to buy and have fun with.
A mfr has to say, pay for a run of 100-1000+ pcs at a time to resell after initial design R and D patent, molds, any rights, etc. It is friggin expensive!
May have to sell all of the first run or more just to break even, at that point hes gotta ask himself if its really worth it or sell to a crowd that he KNOWS will buy em all.
11-29-2012, 04:14 PM
#25
Le Mans Master
You are acting like there is some internal evil demon inside the c4 that prevents it from being fast, no matter how much money you are willing to throw at it.
Not true, but the key is, not many people are willing to "throw money at the C4 and not care how much" to make it fast.
Again, that is the reason no company, trying to make a profit, is willing to R&D a C4.
I find it funny that so many c4 owners have jumped into this thread to bash their own car
Again, not true, I like my C4, but I live in a reality that it is never going to make the power of a LS given the same mods.
I just got done having a 385LT4 built for my 93, AFR heads, ross pistons, all forged bottom end, etc. I will be very happy if it made 425rwhp. Thats it.
Now its at the tuner , A very reputable tuner, and he has had it for over 2 weeks . Because of the outdated computer, trying to get a romulator? to work etc. It takes much more time and is very limited as to what can be tuned etc. compared to a LS. Notice how everybody tunes LS motors, cause they are easy, espically compared to a C4.
Again, Im not saying this to bash the C4, I like it, just stating the facts.
Not true, but the key is, not many people are willing to "throw money at the C4 and not care how much" to make it fast.
Again, that is the reason no company, trying to make a profit, is willing to R&D a C4.
I find it funny that so many c4 owners have jumped into this thread to bash their own car
Again, not true, I like my C4, but I live in a reality that it is never going to make the power of a LS given the same mods.
I just got done having a 385LT4 built for my 93, AFR heads, ross pistons, all forged bottom end, etc. I will be very happy if it made 425rwhp. Thats it.
Now its at the tuner , A very reputable tuner, and he has had it for over 2 weeks . Because of the outdated computer, trying to get a romulator? to work etc. It takes much more time and is very limited as to what can be tuned etc. compared to a LS. Notice how everybody tunes LS motors, cause they are easy, espically compared to a C4.
Again, Im not saying this to bash the C4, I like it, just stating the facts.
11-29-2012, 05:55 PM
#26
Le Mans Master
When you get over 700rwhp, there is a need for 2" headers. I gained almost 3mph with a 2" primary and 3.5" collector over 1.75" 3" collector headers. And they can be made to fit our cars very good. My new 2" primary headers fit better than my old Lingenfelter headers, and the spark plugs are easier to get to than before. But they were hand built headers.
Jim, no disrespect intended to your post, but it appears to me the LT series is different .
1. on the 2 center exhaust, there are only 2 bolts, not a third like you have.
2. When I measure my old heads, the bolt holes are 3.9 in. center to center. This leaves less then 3.6 in between the edges of the holes for the pipes to fit. It would be really hard to put 2, 2in pipes in that space with out oblonging it alot.
Here are some pictures that may help.
1&3/4 Exotic Muscle Headers
Picture of the center ports of my AFR heads, (compliments of Jim
)
11-29-2012, 06:06 PM
#27
Race Director
Thread Starter
You are acting like there is some internal evil demon inside the c4 that prevents it from being fast, no matter how much money you are willing to throw at it.
Not true, but the key is, not many people are willing to "throw money at the C4 and not care how much" to make it fast.
Again, that is the reason no company, trying to make a profit, is willing to R&D a C4.
I find it funny that so many c4 owners have jumped into this thread to bash their own car
Again, not true, I like my C4, but I live in a reality that it is never going to make the power of a LS given the same mods.
I just got done having a 385LT4 built for my 93, AFR heads, ross pistons, all forged bottom end, etc. I will be very happy if it made 425rwhp. Thats it.
Now its at the tuner , A very reputable tuner, and he has had it for over 2 weeks . Because of the outdated computer, trying to get a romulator? to work etc. It takes much more time and is very limited as to what can be tuned etc. compared to a LS. Notice how everybody tunes LS motors, cause they are easy, espically compared to a C4.
Again, Im not saying this to bash the C4, I like it, just stating the facts.
Not true, but the key is, not many people are willing to "throw money at the C4 and not care how much" to make it fast.
Again, that is the reason no company, trying to make a profit, is willing to R&D a C4.
I find it funny that so many c4 owners have jumped into this thread to bash their own car
Again, not true, I like my C4, but I live in a reality that it is never going to make the power of a LS given the same mods.
I just got done having a 385LT4 built for my 93, AFR heads, ross pistons, all forged bottom end, etc. I will be very happy if it made 425rwhp. Thats it.
Now its at the tuner , A very reputable tuner, and he has had it for over 2 weeks . Because of the outdated computer, trying to get a romulator? to work etc. It takes much more time and is very limited as to what can be tuned etc. compared to a LS. Notice how everybody tunes LS motors, cause they are easy, espically compared to a C4.
Again, Im not saying this to bash the C4, I like it, just stating the facts.
I guess what I want to figure out is:
What makes the c4 slower (after mods) than a c5 /6 lsx based car.
The conclusion I come to is a lack of aftermarket support.
Specifically, brackets& turbo headers, and all kinds of supporting mods for forced induction technology. This includes crazy stuff like 'waste gates' that limit boost psi in lower gears (for traction) only to allow more boost in higher gears (when traction is less an issue). No-lift-while-shift-solenoids for safe drag race powershifting, etc.
and dont forget 1 7/8 or 2" headers are common place (not an expensive one-off item). vs. 1 3/4" the best we can do
I already know theres so much available for c5/6 and its comparitively cheap.
In fact, you heard a vendor come onto this thread and give his opinion of the c4. I thought it was sad, but he's running a business. I think he has so much business as it is, no need to spend time on the c4. I know he needs to make a living.
So lets brainstorm on what makes the LSx better:
In the old days people here would say LSx heads are so much better'. The LSx has better 'heads' and 'intake'.
However, AFR stepped up to the plate and came up with AFR195 comp ported eliminator 1039's that flow as much as LS3 heads. Yes, I know you can get even more flow with aftermarket LSx castings. But its pretty amazing that one vendor (AFR) stepped up to the plate for us.
I do wish someone had a matching composite intake that would allow cathedral ports and not heat-soak (by being plastic vs. metal).
I will also agree the LSx has a better computer. However, we can put in a FAST, megasquirt, DFI, etc.
Ok, also people can sleeve the motor and get many more cubic inches (think LS7) out of it than I can (I think Ive heard of people making expensive 402 ltx with custom pistons, but thats the theoretical max).
I know that most people here wont spend the money on a c4. However I will and I wish I had more options.
I dont ever want a c5/6 (ie. I wasnt dreaming about owning a c5/6 back in '91 when I was on the verge of getting my drivers license). A c4was what I dreamt about and I dont have those kinds of 'feelings' for cars anymore (ie. the best car now is the one for which there is no payment).
Last edited by dizwiz24; 11-29-2012 at 06:10 PM.
11-29-2012, 06:50 PM
#28
Race Director
Jim, no disrespect intended to your post, but it appears to me the LT series is different .
1. on the 2 center exhaust, there are only 2 bolts, not a third like you have.
2. When I measure my old heads, the bolt holes are 3.9 in. center to center. This leaves less then 3.6 in between the edges of the holes for the pipes to fit. It would be really hard to put 2, 2in pipes in that space with out oblonging it alot.
Here are some pictures that may help.
1&3/4 Exotic Muscle Headers
Picture of the center ports of my AFR heads, (compliments of Jim)
1. on the 2 center exhaust, there are only 2 bolts, not a third like you have.
2. When I measure my old heads, the bolt holes are 3.9 in. center to center. This leaves less then 3.6 in between the edges of the holes for the pipes to fit. It would be really hard to put 2, 2in pipes in that space with out oblonging it alot.
Here are some pictures that may help.
1&3/4 Exotic Muscle Headers
Picture of the center ports of my AFR heads, (compliments of Jim
)
11-29-2012, 06:57 PM
#29
Le Mans Master
[QUOTE=dizwiz24;1582447669]No-lift-while-shift-solenoids for safe drag race powershifting, etc.
If you do a search, im pretty sure lcvette came up with this. From memory, he worked a way to cut ignition, when the clutch was on the floor. He kept the "petal to the metal" and eliminated turbo lag between gears.
If you do a search, im pretty sure lcvette came up with this. From memory, he worked a way to cut ignition, when the clutch was on the floor. He kept the "petal to the metal" and eliminated turbo lag between gears.
11-29-2012, 06:59 PM
#30
Melting Slicks
Exactly. The adapter flange uses countersunk bolts and gives you a different bolt pattern. Without the adapter flange the tubes would be on top of the header bolts, and it wouldn't bolt to the head.
11-29-2012, 07:17 PM
#31
Le Mans Master
11-29-2012, 07:20 PM
#32
Le Mans Master
Willie, I read right over that and missed your point.
I see it now.
11-29-2012, 08:50 PM
#33
Melting Slicks
I got approached for a fully built LT1 396 Shortblock $6000 than add heads supporting mods what another $5000. What make 450rwhp on motor with no street manners.
Soon Ill be a solid axle 700rwhp LSx Maggie SC vette.
Either way I will be way more impresses with a LTx build that makes 1000 rwhp than LSx. Because you can only count them on one hand. But for sake of the conversation the LS is superior in any way you cut it. Part for part match you cant out do a LS. Impossible. That's why I upgraded my c4 to a LSx and increased my modification possibles.
Its just a spirited debate. I have no hard feelings for LTx people or LSx people. Stay stock trim or go modern technology. Either way riding down the road is a C4. And the level we're talking it would be one sweet vette.
11-29-2012, 09:34 PM
#34
Race Director
Thread Starter
No I got smart and put a LSx motor in and now I'm capable of running on a stock LSx motor ($3000 Drop in) what a head and cam LT1 motor can do ($6000+) And Yes Ive been down both roads. Am I bashing the LT1 motor maybe but I got a tattoo of a C4 on my leg and two C4s in my garage.
I got approached for a fully built LT1 396 Shortblock $6000 than add heads supporting mods what another $5000. What make 450rwhp on motor with no street manners.
Soon Ill be a solid axle 700rwhp LSx Maggie SC vette.
Either way I will be way more impresses with a LTx build that makes 1000 rwhp than LSx. Because you can only count them on one hand. But for sake of the conversation the LS is superior in any way you cut it. Part for part match you cant out do a LS. Impossible. That's why I upgraded my c4 to a LSx and increased my modification possibles.
Its just a spirited debate. I have no hard feelings for LTx people or LSx people. Stay stock trim or go modern technology. Either way riding down the road is a C4. And the level we're talking it would be one sweet vette.
I got approached for a fully built LT1 396 Shortblock $6000 than add heads supporting mods what another $5000. What make 450rwhp on motor with no street manners.
Soon Ill be a solid axle 700rwhp LSx Maggie SC vette.
Either way I will be way more impresses with a LTx build that makes 1000 rwhp than LSx. Because you can only count them on one hand. But for sake of the conversation the LS is superior in any way you cut it. Part for part match you cant out do a LS. Impossible. That's why I upgraded my c4 to a LSx and increased my modification possibles.
Its just a spirited debate. I have no hard feelings for LTx people or LSx people. Stay stock trim or go modern technology. Either way riding down the road is a C4. And the level we're talking it would be one sweet vette.
Why is an lsx better than an ltx ?
2" headers (the point of this post) are going to be too big for just about any ltx or lsx n/a build short of a 502 crate motor.
Start shoving (forcing) air through it w/ turbos or supercharger and you need the big headers.
I want a big header option available for ltx. I don't believe it to be as bad a motor as others here do (or the lsx to be as great as everyone here does).
Last edited by dizwiz24; 11-29-2012 at 09:41 PM.
11-29-2012, 10:02 PM
#35
Melting Slicks
DIZ mentioned max cubes for a LTX. As far as max cubes on a LTX, you can build a 409 (408.2) 4.030 bore x 4.00 stroke. I have done several. Or a 421LTX with a 4.030 bore and a 4.125 stroke. But that is pushing it to the limit, and not recommended.
11-29-2012, 10:26 PM
#36
Safety Car
Dizwiz24, I like the passion. However, the fact is time and technology has moved on. They are still great cars and in their own time great cars technology wise. A well built LTx Corvette will get respect even if it isn't the fastest thing out there. Its different. Your Corvette is different. Take satisfaction in that your making big power following the less taken road. Kinda like the LT5 guys. Big power and VERY unique platform.
Fast LSx stuff is a dime a dozen. The aftermarket is huge because the engine is a SBC. The LTx is a bit of a black sheep now. Not produced long enough to be classic like the Gen 1, not new enough like the Gen 3/4 and now 5 to have a huge aftermarket.
Let us state some more facts: The LTx program was a HUGE stepping stone from the old TPI L98 engine. The excellent torque monsters they are. From the LTx program it was realized and pursued that more was possible. This lead to the LSx, the LTx was a stepping stone. Without it the LSx would NOT be the engine it is.
Also, Dizwiz, you can get built anything you want to. Bring money.
I know my STOCK (drive line/engine wise) LT1/ZF6 running at the drag strip has surprised more than few people of how good it does run. They had nothing but positive things to say. Many of them have newer Corvettes, but remember fondly the broad torque band and fun they had with the car. My best is a 13.38@105 (street tires). More in it, with a better driver I think 13.2's all day. Compared to LOTS of modern machinery that is NOT slow. Not fast but still plenty quick and darn respectable for 20 year old machinery.
Enjoy your build and run the poop out of it when its done.
11-29-2012, 11:12 PM
#37
Melting Slicks
Ok this nice spirited talk explain to me what I'm asking:
Why is an lsx better than an ltx ?
Lighter, more cubes, endless aftermarket(along with 2 inch headers), Tuning, Fuel economy, Hp, or Tq. Also cheaper per HP. Name ONE thing why the LTx is better. Like last poster said best thing it did was provide a stepping stone.
2" headers (the point of this post) are going to be too big for just about any ltx or lsx n/a build short of a 502 crate motor.
2inch primaries are crazy big. I think anything under 1000 will be ok without them. Back pressure is needed. To big of headers wont help they might hurt. In a supercharger application you are better off but 2 inch is huge.
http://ls1tech.com/forums/generation...xperience.html
Start shoving (forcing) air through it w/ turbos or supercharger and you need the big headers.
Push as much air as you want the throttle body necks that down for you. You might get 1000 cfm out of a ltx....Lsx get 1500 cfm.
True how big is this turbo ?
I want a big header option available for ltx. I don't believe it to be as bad a motor as others here do (or the lsx to be as great as everyone here does).
No not a bad motor just weak in the areas of ignition (optispark) Raise your hand if you haven't changed one of those yet. Heat soak is horrible. Tuning can be done but not to the level of a LSx. Lack of aftermarket.
Why is an lsx better than an ltx ?
Lighter, more cubes, endless aftermarket(along with 2 inch headers), Tuning, Fuel economy, Hp, or Tq. Also cheaper per HP. Name ONE thing why the LTx is better. Like last poster said best thing it did was provide a stepping stone.
2" headers (the point of this post) are going to be too big for just about any ltx or lsx n/a build short of a 502 crate motor.
2inch primaries are crazy big. I think anything under 1000 will be ok without them. Back pressure is needed. To big of headers wont help they might hurt. In a supercharger application you are better off but 2 inch is huge.
http://ls1tech.com/forums/generation...xperience.html
Start shoving (forcing) air through it w/ turbos or supercharger and you need the big headers.
Push as much air as you want the throttle body necks that down for you. You might get 1000 cfm out of a ltx....Lsx get 1500 cfm.
True how big is this turbo ?
I want a big header option available for ltx. I don't believe it to be as bad a motor as others here do (or the lsx to be as great as everyone here does).
No not a bad motor just weak in the areas of ignition (optispark) Raise your hand if you haven't changed one of those yet. Heat soak is horrible. Tuning can be done but not to the level of a LSx. Lack of aftermarket.
It sucks but thats the way of things.
Last edited by fc_soldier; 11-29-2012 at 11:16 PM.
11-30-2012, 09:16 AM
#38
Race Director
Thread Starter
1. iron block - better for applications > 700 rwhp. block flex of aluminum can become an issue.
Also, I believe if you get an f-body 2-bolt main block and 'splay' the mains its going to be 1000+ rwhp capable mains.
2. Im told there is an extra head bolt per cylinder around the ltx blocks. Though Ive never looked at an LSx - heads off, so I cant tell you if this hold true.
3. AS&M monoblade... you cant tell me with this monster, the throttle body is a restriction.AS&M monoblade (i have one - for bigger builds)...claims a flow of 1300 cfm
4. optispark - its fragile, but once vents and stuff are added it becomes better and will reliably light the spark to rpms > 7000.
5. computer it sucks, but it can be replaced. Aftermarket tuners (with the exception of Alvin) dont have any clue what they are doing and I have better luck tuning my 93 with ostrich, tunerproRT then any so-called tuner.
6. Finally. the ace-in-the-hole.. are sheet metal intakes (still EFI, not carb). These arent cheap, but Ive read (on the f-body site) where guys have added 80 rwhp higher rpm power with one of these on forced induction LTx builds. I think Hogan? Is the name of the company that makes them. Custom item, very expensive (about $2k). But can you imagine how cheap they'd be if it was an LSx part?
Ideally the aftermarket (someone like AFR) would come up with a head/composite intake COMBO for SBC/LTx that mimic'd the cathedral ports of LSx..... Might need a hood with a cowl to clear it. The aftermarket could do it, but chooses not to.
My goals are forced induction. Id like to think that shoving air down the throat of a well set-up LTx or SBC motor is going to negate most of the N/A flow advantages of an LSx (cathedral port, narrow valve angle, composite intake, etc.). However, I cant deny the facts that there are so many LSx motors putting down insane power ! What I question is if those same modern power-adders were put on to an LTx or SBC would the difference really be that great.
But back to it again: Why is the LSx better:
The aftermarket
Again, I invite anyone reading this thread to go back and read a response from a big name vendor on here about what they think about the c4.
Also, I believe if you get an f-body 2-bolt main block and 'splay' the mains its going to be 1000+ rwhp capable mains.
2. Im told there is an extra head bolt per cylinder around the ltx blocks. Though Ive never looked at an LSx - heads off, so I cant tell you if this hold true.
3. AS&M monoblade... you cant tell me with this monster, the throttle body is a restriction.AS&M monoblade (i have one - for bigger builds)...claims a flow of 1300 cfm
4. optispark - its fragile, but once vents and stuff are added it becomes better and will reliably light the spark to rpms > 7000.
5. computer it sucks, but it can be replaced. Aftermarket tuners (with the exception of Alvin) dont have any clue what they are doing and I have better luck tuning my 93 with ostrich, tunerproRT then any so-called tuner.
6. Finally. the ace-in-the-hole.. are sheet metal intakes (still EFI, not carb). These arent cheap, but Ive read (on the f-body site) where guys have added 80 rwhp higher rpm power with one of these on forced induction LTx builds. I think Hogan? Is the name of the company that makes them. Custom item, very expensive (about $2k). But can you imagine how cheap they'd be if it was an LSx part?
Ideally the aftermarket (someone like AFR) would come up with a head/composite intake COMBO for SBC/LTx that mimic'd the cathedral ports of LSx..... Might need a hood with a cowl to clear it. The aftermarket could do it, but chooses not to.
My goals are forced induction. Id like to think that shoving air down the throat of a well set-up LTx or SBC motor is going to negate most of the N/A flow advantages of an LSx (cathedral port, narrow valve angle, composite intake, etc.). However, I cant deny the facts that there are so many LSx motors putting down insane power ! What I question is if those same modern power-adders were put on to an LTx or SBC would the difference really be that great.
But back to it again: Why is the LSx better:
The aftermarket
Again, I invite anyone reading this thread to go back and read a response from a big name vendor on here about what they think about the c4.
Last edited by dizwiz24; 11-30-2012 at 09:26 AM.
11-30-2012, 09:30 AM
#39
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St. Jude Donor '05
You can crank up the boost with that header
Splaying a Gen1/2 sbc makes it stronger but take a look at the crossbolted mains and the webbing underneath an LSx sometime. HUGE difference.
LSx doesnt even use the cathedral port head anymore far as I know.
You dont have the 2 middle cyls close....nice straight shot at the valve (lSX) cant do that with the Gen 1. About all you can do is use offset rocker aarms, lifters, weld the pinch etc etc. Nothing wrong with it.
Thing is you cant put 1000 hp to the ground. Ive driven TT C5s and sure big dyno # but they are worthless under 80mph they start to pull then just spin...fun for about a minute- How often can you run from 80 up without going to jail?
Nice bragging rights but still....just for showboating I think.
The LSx tech just gets even better check out the new LT1...unreal potential. But look at the price tag of admission and fixing one....dig deep
How much do you really need? 450rwhp?500?
Gen 1 sbc are capable of huge power just be happy with it.
Splaying a Gen1/2 sbc makes it stronger but take a look at the crossbolted mains and the webbing underneath an LSx sometime. HUGE difference.
LSx doesnt even use the cathedral port head anymore far as I know.
You dont have the 2 middle cyls close....nice straight shot at the valve (lSX) cant do that with the Gen 1. About all you can do is use offset rocker aarms, lifters, weld the pinch etc etc. Nothing wrong with it.
Thing is you cant put 1000 hp to the ground. Ive driven TT C5s and sure big dyno # but they are worthless under 80mph they start to pull then just spin...fun for about a minute- How often can you run from 80 up without going to jail?
Nice bragging rights but still....just for showboating I think.
The LSx tech just gets even better check out the new LT1...unreal potential. But look at the price tag of admission and fixing one....dig deep
How much do you really need? 450rwhp?500?
Gen 1 sbc are capable of huge power just be happy with it.
11-30-2012, 09:36 AM
#40
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St. Jude Donor '05
Diz you wanna blow an LSx guys mind,
get the right block (you can use a few different ones) and build an SB2.2 forget the LTx stuff
Major cubes stupid rpm 750hp NA is a breeze. LSX what heads?
They make rediculous power, if I had the $ thats what Id be doing.
(but they are by no means cheap but still)
They wont know what to think when you pop the hood nor figure out what it is
NOW add about 10-12 lbs boost.You will smoke everything you see even those litrebikes guaranteed
get the right block (you can use a few different ones) and build an SB2.2 forget the LTx stuff
Major cubes stupid rpm 750hp NA is a breeze. LSX what heads?
They make rediculous power, if I had the $ thats what Id be doing.
(but they are by no means cheap but still)
They wont know what to think when you pop the hood nor figure out what it is
NOW add about 10-12 lbs boost.You will smoke everything you see even those litrebikes guaranteed
Last edited by cv67; 11-30-2012 at 09:44 AM.
