ol,RJ

haha, I'm just in one of those silly, been burning proms for 8hrs, type moods :crazy: :smash:
anyway, let me say that for this newbie. prom burning is something that requires a lot of time and trial/error. "edit" "and research, research, research"
I started out this afternoon from scratch with a fresh bin. I figure OK I'll start with the inj. PW vs batt voltage to try and lean out my idle, took out 10% hmm no improvement.
20% hmm little improvement.
So I figure I better see what this is doing to some higher RPM's.
I go to 1500rpm and hold it steady, ouch, this is lean way lean.

so its back to the bin I had been playing around with in the begining, where I had changed the MAF tables (me bad) and gotten 128BLM's.
messed with this one for the rest of the night.
hmm, idles pretty good for this megga cam, take it to 1500rpm little rich, 1800rpm little rich. OK I think we can take a test drive.

steady cruise, hmm not too bad, slighty lean BLM's 140.
but if I give it gas its lean spike city.
undo some of the crazy stuff I'd done to the MAF table (oh they would hate me on thirdgen) surely this will help right? nope, got worse. :eek: :crazy:
ok clearly I've missed something, more research time, what I need is carb style pump shot. well what do you know the thirdgen DYI prom has a thread going that mentions LV8 accel enrich factor vs deltaLV8, seems like what I'm looking for.
I sure hope so.
too late to wake neighbors now will have to wait till Sunday.
(hmm, did I eat today? well at least I have beer)


[Modified by ol,RJ, 2:32 AM 6/30/2002]

0ski_dwn_it

ol, RJ,

Sounds like one of my days. :lol: You are correct it takes mega time to get a chip right.

Here is what I try to do.

1. Get all BLMs at 128 using Injector PW. I would not recommend messing with the MAF, it changes everything by whatever factor you adjust them too! And speaking for my mind, it can't keep everything straight. Maybe your is equivalent to a super computer???? You will be suprised at how close you can get to 128 with just the IPW. I have my 219 cam at 128 in most every cell, except idle with that method.

2. Get rid of all knock and run the LEAST amount of timing consistant with performance.

3. Go to the MAF tables for final adjustment to get 128 at idle. Follow the instructions in my "new trick" post. It will get them almost right on first try. Then repeat procedure to fine tune them right to 128.

Just out of curiousity. How are you tuning the AFR? With a WB or just the O2?

This was kinda of generic instructions, but there is a lot to be said in those few sentences.

:cheers:

ol,RJ

good nights sleep seems to have helped :yesnod:
when I first started playing around I tried a experiment: a 400ci motor is roughly 1/7 bigger than the stock 350, so I changed all the MAF tables down by 1/7 of their value just to see what happened, BLMs at idle were 128.. of couse they were off as rpms went up..
I've since went back to stock on the MAF table everywhere except at idle (table #1) where its still slightly rich BLM 122.
I've got alot of reversion, with the stock MAF tables it was flowing 15-17 gms at idle (975rpm idle), so I think some MAF adjustment has to be done. (but I can always change it back).

ski,
to answer your questions,
1. If my mind is like any computer, its a old Apple that people can't get upgrades for :lol: I will try some Inj PW changes (changes the whole thing rich, lean)
2. I've already worked the adv timing tables over alot. I did find out one useful thing for engines that surge alot at Idle. my timing was jumping around alot due to the idle going up and down, I changed the advance in those rpms and loads to all be within a deg of one another (total). this helped steady the idle some. (the jumping timing was adding to the problem).
3. I got your "new trick" printed out, along with 100 or so pages of other stuff from the web on prom burning.....
4. no wide band at the moment, just the O2.
thanks for responding
RJ

update:
I returned the MAF to normal, adjusted PW to get Idle good (finally) but now I have a big problem with tip in. goes way lean (grand canyon on the graph) and I'm at 7.2 pulse width? wth?

0ski_dwn_it

With the tip in problem adjust the accel enrich vs LV8. I had to add tons to my setup and it is still a little bit evident. It did however turn my 20' burnouts into 40'ers! :D

I also noticed on the WB that the WOT gets pretty messed up from adding the AE vs lv8. So you may need to tame them down a bit too.

One other tid bit I thought I would pass along. This is the toughest thing for me to do. Is when messing with ANY fuel applications. You have to drive the car for a while to let things adjust. Otherwise you don't get accurate results. I did that at the track a few times before realizing what I had done. With the timing. I think you see the results instantly, but they have an effect on the fuel as well. Not really sure how long it takes, but I ussually drive various way, fast slow, gunning it, idle. I even shut the car off a few times. Then I make my conclusions. If you have it narrowed down to an exact time let me know. Its a real PITA. I want the changes NOW!

Hope you get it. :cheers:

ol,RJ

I did notice the idle takes quite awhile to compensate and settle down on the INT and BLM, I don't have any idea about how long. (I'd guess 10min after going to closed loop)
today I'm going to test another theory.
I've made a bypass for the MAF itself, this should let about 1/7 more air flow thru while letting the MAF see the same values as the stock 350ci (well thats the theory anyway). got to find some proper size hose to make it work.
If it doesn't I can go back to stock.
I did some comparing and it seems the bin I had been using with the mod'd MAF tables is alittle better at tip-in, oh its still got a lean spike but its not nearly as wide a spike as this last chip (that has stock MAF tables).

I really haven't tested much WOT yet, I want to get the cruise/part throttle closer or at least alittle rich before doing alot of driving.

btw: thanks for the tips, its really hard to know what to adjust for some of the problems that pop up, I could spend hours doing search's for that kind of info on thridgen. :cheers:
RJ

ol,RJ

update:
I got the MAF bypass all hooked up :D and started testing.
only lowered the diacom readings from 14 to 12gms when warmed up.
it did look promising, the tip in problem was gone while rev'ing in neutral (but it was rich, BLM 112 @ idle).
did a few adjustments on the bin and went for a drive, not too bad....
Now comes the let down :(
I did a WOT run in 1st gear (parking lot). pulled pretty good to 4800 then fell on its face :U
I did more testing but to shorten the story, problem with the bypass is: once it max's out at 254-255 the air flow must get unstable or something because the reading would drop (even though the rpms are still climbing). when that happens the LV8 takes a nosedive, which lowers the injector PW and we all know what happens next :eek: :U

so that ends my experiments,
going to take out the bypass and put the stock hose back on. then get the prom where it works as good as I can.
But I've learned some things about my combo during all this:
1. the mini-ram and large cam likes a rich idle (when I put it to BLM128 it would surge more) I think I'll let it settle in at BLM 116 @idle for now.
2. the same thing for slow cruising, a little rich seems smoother and helps with the tip in (I think).
3. the mini-ram seems to run a little leaner on the front 4 cylinders than the back 4. (one more reason to run slightly rich)
4. GM didn't make the ECM prom combo very user friendly :lol:
but it can be done..

well I've got the rest of the week off and I'm going to try and get this thing sorted out, I have yet to be able to go to 6500rpm due to a lean condition above 5800rpm (where it should make good HP) correcting that is going to be one of the goals.
I'll keep you informed on the progress.
RJ

0ski_dwn_it

Youl will most likely need to go back to the MAF stock tables. Then for your lean problem, go to the wot ARF tables. Richen them up in the upper RPM range. I had to go quite a bit with my SR and your miniram will probably be even higher yet. I can take my SR to 6400 with no lean problems. I am at 12.2 AFR which needs leaned out a tad more.

You'll get it. Just stick with the basics.

ol,RJ

thanks ski,
I had some luck with it today, got the WOT better :D still need to go alittle more rich above 5500rpm but it getting closer.
now I have a dang code 33 (MAF high) when cruising under 2000rpm.
crap
can this be fixed with tunercat? (6E)
I did a search on thirdgen but only thing I found was fixing it in HEX (way over my head).

oops, *never mind I found it in the constants*


[Modified by ol,RJ, 9:58 PM 7/2/2002]

drive it

Yup, it's nice to be able to get rid of that %$&*#code 33! I just changed mine to 125-it'll still set the code if there's a real problem, but that's the only fix with lotsa mods.
Do you have any way to get ahold of a wide band? Beg/borrow? You're to the point where it would be invaluable for tuning.......you'll see right away where it needs more "pump shot" and where you're at with WOT.
Especially with the miniram it could save you lot of time/effort to nail down the pump shot. I also found it invaluable to tune F/A at open loop.
I can always justify more tools....."but honey-look how much $ I'm saving ya by doin it myself! :lol:

0ski_dwn_it

Your getting there!

Drive it is right you need a WB to do it right. It makes life much, much easier! But I will say *at least for my car* craig moates software is almost dead nuts on for AFR. The only problem is the stock o2 does not react as fast as the WB. Plus at idle and cruise the WB is much better.

Please pay attention to the *s. For a different car it may be way off. I just have luck with the stuff that I don't need and really crappy luck with the stuff I do need! :lol:

Toys you have to love them.

Yesterday it was 90* and about 100% humidity and the fiance and baby came out to the gargage to bring me some ice cream. I was sitting on the wheel putting the front of the engine back together and the sweat was literally pouring off me. She said, "How could like doing something so much that consumes all your time and money?" I looked at her and said, " I like you too, don't I?" :lol: :lol:

ol,RJ

again thanks for the help guys, and if one of you want to send me your WBo2 I'll gladly use it :D .
tonight is test and tune night at a nearby dragstrip, I might head up there if things go well today (it would be a good place to ask about a dyno closer to home or possibly a WB02).

I think a wide band 02 would be cheaper than a girlfriend, but I'd rather have a girlfriend :crazy:

you guys know anything about the "LV8 accel. enrich Decay rate vs coolant"? I'm tinking this might be the rate that it drops out of the A.E. after a small rev or when you level off to cruise. (going to do a search) seems like I go too lean under those circumstances.

I'll try and get it to a dyno with a WBo2 for some fine tuning as soon as I can. right now though I still have a few drivabilty problems that need work. I don't need a WB to tell me it fell on its face :)


[Modified by ol,RJ, 12:21 AM 7/4/2002]


[Modified by ol,RJ, 12:24 AM 7/4/2002]

ol,RJ

Update, midnite 7-03-02:
well I didn't go to the dragstrip, wasn't close enough on the WOT to chance it. did get more comfortable with the adjustments and its getting closer all around (still a ways to go yet).
I'm suprised at how much I'm having to change the "PE%change to F/A vs RPM" in order to richen up the WOT especially in the 4800rpm and up area this 406 mini-ram loves gas!
I also found that I have to go in and rework the injector constant. turns out its richer than I thought at cruise, thats what I get for just holding it at RPM's in neutral .
another mistake I made was setting the "%TPS to enable PE vs rpm" too low, it was ingaged during light acceleration at cruise speeds (well it didn't stumble anyway, but dang hard on MPG) got that sorted out better now.
BTW: I'm still running the stock MAF tables, I'll make that the last thing I touch.

All in all a pretty good day.
I'm confident that I'll have it pretty well sorted out by the weekend
and I owe a big thanks to you guys (and the thridgen plus their search engine).
this prom burning is no small feat (at least not on a seriously mod'd motor) but it seems to get easier as you go (make that more understandable).
RJ

0ski_dwn_it

Glad to see your getting it.

The AE vs coolant should not be the one your after. That from the name will be just as you said, a correction for the temp your coolant is at. Once you reach operating temp that should be pretty much constant. Now AE vs RPM will be always changing with your driving. That is the one you may want to focus in on. But if your WAY lean or Rich in your operating temp you may want to play with the coolant one to give you more latitude with your RPM adjustments. You can only go to a certain point I think its .99. If you need to go more than that bump up the AE in the coolant range your in then you will have a bit more room in the RPM for fine tuning.

Hope you understood all that! :D

ol,RJ

I think I understand, its a multiplier, like the injector constant or such it changes all the values.

I didn't get to do much today, being the 4th and all.
got the WOT pretty good (I see what you mean about the stock O2, its a little different one run to the next) got it in the 875-902mv range another identical run was 898-940mv range. I think thats close enough for now.
I've started reworking the main spark advance now. seems to need more at cruising speed (I had taken alot out because the APYP seems to have way too much advance in it). seems like I'm getting some extra advance (above whats in the table) sometimes? I've got the WOT advance at 0, and its only happening at part throttle or idle. do you think it has anything to do with the fact that I'm using a 1989 bin in a 86 vette?

other than that I've got a good handle on the Idle and WOT, now I need to work on the part throttle drivability, I'm hoping that more advance at low load will help.

on a side note the IPW is 7.4 at 6000rpm so I think I'll be safe on the duty cycle.
RJ


[Modified by ol,RJ, 11:01 PM 7/4/2002]

0ski_dwn_it

Yep, yep , yep, and yep!

You are headed in the right direction.

Rule of thumb is the less air flow the more advance you will need. So yes at cruise type conditions you are flowing much less air than at WOT therefor your charge will not be as potent and you will need more advance.

You may want to disable your PE for mid throttle tuning. It will help you see what you need easier. Otherwise your PE will be kicking in and screwing up your testing. Then when your done tuning for cruise enable it again for the final result.

It took me a while to figure out, but don't worry about trying to tune for any rpm less than your stall speed. It will be an exercise in futility. Do not confuse this with idle tuning.

Good luck keep us posted.

drive it

I would leave the vs coolant temp tables alone-I've found -checking with the wide band-that once you get openloop , ae etc. where you want them, then the vs coolant temp tables are about spot on.

ol,RJ

thanks guys,
good idea about disabling the PE for the part throttle tuning ski, I'll try that.
I've got a ROD 6spd car so I guess I'll have to tune down alittle farther, highway cruising is in the 1700-2200rpm range.
I took a look at the coolant vs advance but since its 0 around my thermostat range I won't mess with it. the extra timing I see once and while must be a fluke or something.
hopefully I can make more progess today.
RJ

ol,RJ

had a pretty good day today.
did part throttle (turned the engagement of PE way up so it wouldn't kick in), this seems to be the hardest one yet.
I do think it turned out pretty well (for this cam anyway)
BLM's are in the 122 to 134 range mostly (the exception is in deceleration where it goes to 144 BLM).
seems like its slow to correct itself.
still seeing additional timing advance (above whats in the table) don't know where its coming from, must be some hidden somewhere for low LV8's.
had to add more AE, that helped part throttle accel alot. it did give me a rich spike at WOT but it also let me ingage PE at a higher rpm.

think I'll fix the lean spike and then drive it around for awhile. getting tired of the ECM in the floor and a laptop in the seat...
RJ

ol,RJ

well today (sat.) didn't go quite as planned.
I thought I was pretty close on fri. but today when I do a diacom run, its different? seems richer at idle and cruise but leaner at WOT. wth??
so I adjust some more on the WOT.
on my third run I take it to 6300rpm and hear a pop/slap/grinding sound :eek:
it goes away quickly and as I'm looking at the recorded data the idle changes, hmmm...... look at teh dash and see a red light next to a 11.4 volts on the charging system.. crap, toasted my alternator!
and I think it must have been on the way out while I was tuning it this week. (I remember seeing 14.1volts) the new alternator is running around 13.4 volts.
So I guess I'll spend some time sunday rechecking with diacom.
RJ

0ski_dwn_it

I had some battery problems not too long back. Man does it mess with the idle. THere is a Pulse width correction vs. Battery voltage. Because my car was primarily running off the alternator. Everytime I would rev the car the voltage would change. Therefore the pulse widths were always fighting the computer or rather the other way around. It would often result in a stall or near stall.

New battery and no more problems.

Good luck. At least it was an easy find and fix for you.