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Opinions/real world experience wanted: LS swap or L98 build

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Old 09-12-2017, 09:48 AM   #1
JasBass
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Default Opinions/real world experience wanted: LS swap or L98 build

Good morning Everyone,

Just like the title says, just want some real world opinions and experiences about building up the L98 or going with an LS swap. Looking for that mid to high 400s for HP and torque. Between all the costs and labor (for my area of the country) of building up the L98 and driving it out of the shop, it's cost comprabable to dropping in a new LS3 or one of the LS376 variants. What I really want from this post is feedback about living with these two build options on a day to day basis. Reliability, daily driving character, etc. Or if I should stick with the 355 in it and clean it up.

I'm restoring the car, and I'm reaching the point where I need to decide about the engine before I keep moving forward. Car is an 89 Z51 ZF6 coupe. More info in my bio about the car. I know this is a hot button issue, let's keep it clean. We all love these cars and we all love power!
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Old 09-12-2017, 10:28 AM   #2
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88 Bob has this project happening right now. It may even be completed. Lady time I was there, engine was installed and I think the tranny was too. He is a nice guy, send him a note.

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Old 09-12-2017, 10:31 AM   #3
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Drop in a crate motor? No fabrication for an LS, that way.

My (early) SBC rocks, but I love the LS in my C5!
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Old 09-12-2017, 01:23 PM   #4
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Can only speak for myself but my last project was an '89 firebird that I bought as a roller. I wasted so much money with building a 355 with vortec heads and later on a GM L31 crate engine when I wish I would've just done an lsx swap from the start. again I can only speak for myself but with the costs of machine work to build an engine doesn't make sense when guys are boosting stock high mile Ls engines and putting down impressive numbers while still getting better gas mileage. theres a reason so many ppl are doing ls swaps. But again only you can say how much fab/custom work you're comfortable with and able to do yourself.

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Old 09-12-2017, 01:43 PM   #5
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I prefer the old SBC, but if you want to go through the possible issues of the swap for good drivability with HP and MPG, then by all means go ahead with the LS engines.
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Old 09-12-2017, 04:49 PM   #6
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I have around 1000 miles on my LQ9 6.0L engine in my 85 corvette. I'm using stock 700R, stock 700R converter, LQ9 flexplate, old style motor mounts, shorty ebay headers, GM 2005 front accessory kit, holley front clearance oil pan, typhoon aftermarket intake, 103mm cable throttle body, ev6 42lbs injectors. I'm using the stock 85 vette rad, and fuel pump (60psi now). My car is a 2.73 car and I can lay down two rubber markers pretty much at will. Of course I'm still running the stock C4 16in wheels.

My vote is for the LS3 crate engine, as they work so nice but you will need an low clearance oil pan for it. I would also throw in a bigger camshaft than the stock LS3 cam, as the stock LS3 is pretty mild more for low emissions than for power. I'm not sure on what motor mounts you'll go with. If you can run the newer mounts use them. I've even heard you can drop in a LS engine with newer LS engine mounts into late C4 car, could be a rumor.

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Old 09-12-2017, 08:54 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whalepirot View Post
Drop in a crate motor? No fabrication for an LS, that way.

My (early) SBC rocks, but I love the LS in my C5!

I've thought about going the crate motor route. Then I start thinking about weight savings with the Aluminum LS block. The L98 mechanically is sound, just need to tidy up some of the ancillary equipment, so I would hate to just ditch it for a different SBC. I've yet to hear someone say they hate their LS...me included. I've got a 5.3 variant in my SUV and it's just a reliable beast.


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Originally Posted by armybyrd View Post
Can only speak for myself but my last project was an '89 firebird that I bought as a roller. I wasted so much money with building a 355 with vortec heads and later on a GM L31 crate engine when I wish I would've just done an lsx swap from the start. again I can only speak for myself but with the costs of machine work to build an engine doesn't make sense when guys are boosting stock high mile Ls engines and putting down impressive numbers while still getting better gas mileage. theres a reason so many ppl are doing ls swaps. But again only you can say how much fab/custom work you're comfortable with and able to do yourself.

LSX is something I highly considered, maybe even being overly macho and doing the LSx 454 (Tim the tool man Taylor grunt). Then I get into the detail fight of the weight of the iron block vs. the aluminum block, etc. It's hard to deny how cheap you can get a good LS and then have great aftermarket support and tuning options.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Holmen View Post
I have around 1000 miles on my LQ9 6.0L engine in my 85 corvette. I'm using stock 700R, stock 700R converter, LQ9 flexplate, old style motor mounts, shorty ebay headers, GM 2005 front accessory kit, holley front clearance oil pan, typhoon aftermarket intake, 103mm cable throttle body, ev6 42lbs injectors. I'm using the stock 85 vette rad, and fuel pump (60psi now). My car is a 2.73 car and I can lay down two rubber markers pretty much at will. Of course I'm still running the stock C4 16in wheels.

My vote is for the LS3 crate engine, as they work so nice but you will need an low clearance oil pan for it. I would also throw in a bigger camshaft than the stock LS3 cam, as the stock LS3 is pretty mild more for low emissions than for power. I'm not sure on what motor mounts you'll go with. If you can run the newer mounts use them. I've even heard you can drop in a LS engine with newer LS engine mounts into late C4 car, could be a rumor.

That's one hell of a set up you have man! I agree about the cam. I've been eyeballing the LS376/525 or 480. Or taking an old LS3 and dropping a decent cam in it. For motor mounts, just off the light research i've done, it looks like i'd be able to use the adapter plates from Hooker to match up the Ls block to the gen 1 mounts. Any truth to that?
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Old 09-12-2017, 09:40 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JasBass View Post
I've thought about going the crate motor route. Then I start thinking about weight savings with the Aluminum LS block. The L98 mechanically is sound, just need to tidy up some of the ancillary equipment, so I would hate to just ditch it for a different SBC. I've yet to hear someone say they hate their LS...me included. I've got a 5.3 variant in my SUV and it's just a reliable beast.





LSX is something I highly considered, maybe even being overly macho and doing the LSx 454 (Tim the tool man Taylor grunt). Then I get into the detail fight of the weight of the iron block vs. the aluminum block, etc. It's hard to deny how cheap you can get a good LS and then have great aftermarket support and tuning options.






That's one hell of a set up you have man! I agree about the cam. I've been eyeballing the LS376/525 or 480. Or taking an old LS3 and dropping a decent cam in it. For motor mounts, just off the light research i've done, it looks like i'd be able to use the adapter plates from Hooker to match up the Ls block to the gen 1 mounts. Any truth to that?

I'm using adapter plates and the stock L98 mounts.
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Old 09-12-2017, 10:03 PM   #9
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You could also take my LQ9 (0317 heads), add LS3cnc heads, LS3 intake manifold, add LS9 camshaft and LS3 rockers. You have a cheap skate 364/480HP engine. All which I have and going to install this winter.

The LS engine mounts are different than the SBC we use. Everyone uses the engine adapter plates and reuse the sbc motor mounts. Probably applies to the later C4 (none L98 engine, and more likely the LT engines).

My LQ9 stock at idle has more vacuum than your L98, throttle response is awesome. Surprises everyone on how fast a stock appearing early C4 is.

Post pictures on what ever you build. You can always add boost if you need more power down the road. I'm using the FAST ez LS kit. The install of this kit was super easy. I can tune the car very easy with out a computer, while driving. Very neat. You can add fuel down low, or lean out the engine. Add timing for various different speeds. I can list a pile of negative issues as well.

Of HP tuners/EFI Live programmers has more maps so makes for more tweaking if you run the stock ECM. Plus data recording.

My LQ9 (iron block) is around 100lbs lighter than my L98 engine.

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Old 09-13-2017, 12:43 AM   #10
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my thoughts are LS motors are awesome but inherently ugly, yes they can be made to look better but I like the TPI look, its always been unique looking, once you go LS motor, unless you are sentimental to a C4 (which I am) C5's are so inexpensive now, just get one
(will already be an LS)

I like my C4 (89 vert 6spd) and know that a dated platform and prefer
keeping it somewhat stock. (Mini ram, AFR heads,cam, headers,) LOL

used to be interesting to see LS motors swapped into early cars because of all the engineering involved , but now that there are basically kits to put one in anything, I'd rather make a real fast conventional small block.

just my opinions
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Old 09-13-2017, 10:09 AM   #11
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I still think they are ugly.

However theres a thread in C5 gen about engine compartments
Look up member ~Josh....thats how ones supposed to look..unreal!
A must see

A GM crate with a reasonable cam by itslef will haul azz.
Only drawback is they are quiet so youll need some tunes to overcome all the thumps squeaks and rattles
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Old 09-13-2017, 10:51 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JasBass View Post
Good morning Everyone,

Just like the title says, just want some real world opinions and experiences about building up the L98 or going with an LS swap. Looking for that mid to high 400s for HP and torque. Between all the costs and labor (for my area of the country) of building up the L98 and driving it out of the shop, it's cost comprabable to dropping in a new LS3 or one of the LS376 variants. What I really want from this post is feedback about living with these two build options on a day to day basis. Reliability, daily driving character, etc. Or if I should stick with the 355 in it and clean it up.

I'm restoring the car, and I'm reaching the point where I need to decide about the engine before I keep moving forward. Car is an 89 Z51 ZF6 coupe. More info in my bio about the car. I know this is a hot button issue, let's keep it clean. We all love these cars and we all love power!
Restoring a c4 and LS are not in the same group.

Sounds more like repairing and or modifying a C4.

1. Are you doing the work?
2. If not does the person doing the work understand how to fabricate (even if drop in)
3. Does the person know how to handle computers and wiring?

Please post the comparable prices that you expect in either of these projects and we can tell you what is real and what is hopes or ideas.

I can almost promise you it's not going to be what you thought.

Last edited by pologreen1; 09-13-2017 at 10:52 AM.
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Old 09-13-2017, 11:50 AM   #13
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just saw you wanted mid-high 400s hp and torque

it wont come from a 350 or an ls1

you need cubes, can be done with a Gen 1;start with 400+cubes make it easy.LS swaps are not easy or cheap....some have done it with coblled together junk yard stuff but you usually dont hear from them again once its running theres a reason why.

They are a good platform but they arent magic & they got their issues, too.
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Old 09-13-2017, 01:41 PM   #14
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I have tons of real world experience with GEN I SBC's. Very easy to meet or exceed your stated goals. Money wise, I guess it depends on who your dealing with.

I also have a bit of experience with LSX swaps....

They are cool little engines and have their advantages but don't think it's all advantages.....Here it is from my point of view.

It's super easy to drop and LSX into a C4 Vette and make it run/drive. It's a totally different level of work if you want to keep the AC and heat, cruise control ect... The accessory drive is totally different and could be a real PITA to fit one with everything on it in a C4 Vette due to the steering rack position.

LSX swap can be done pretty cheap with a junk yard engine and hacked up factory harness. Not so much with a new GM crate which, LS3 ($6,700) or the LS3/525 ($8400) and that is just for the bare engine... standalone harness and ECM is more money. You add a little complexity with the ZF6 trans but there is a swap FW/Clutch and bell housing available, it's just not cheap. Other option there is a T56 swap, which has it's own head aches if you want to stay 6spd manual.

People often over state the power capability of stock LS engines.... yea you can make a lot of power with them.... But seriously LS engines have cast cranks, PM rods and Hyper Pistons.... that crap will fail and often does.... People always quote the success stories but being in the racing engine business, I can tell you that there are 10 failures for every one that makes it. If you want a really powerful & reliable LS engine, you need to build one right... just like any other engine.

IF you are really serious, I have a customer that is upgrading his C4 Vette from daily driver to a more race oriented car and his current GEN I SBC engine can be bought pretty cheap.... 530+HP, 480+TQ, complete with dyno sheets, full build documentation.....
Will

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Old 09-13-2017, 02:35 PM   #15
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[QUOTE=Mike Holmen;1595559137] Post pictures on what ever you build.

Absolutely, I will. It'll be later this year/early next year before I hit the engine. Everything on this car needs to be touched, so i'm hitting the smaller stuff first. Cleaning up the wiring/replacing cracked connectors, the interior HVAC was a home for mice it looks like, so that and the firewall mat are coming out-cleaning and replacement for the mat, bushings, brake lines, de-funking 29 years of what looks like never cleaning the engine bay and under the car. I'll keep snapping pics along the way and start a thread when the fun stuff starts happening.

[QUOTE=zapc;1595559862] but I like the TPI look, its always been unique looking. I like my C4 (89 vert 6spd) and know that a dated platform and prefer keeping it somewhat stock. (Mini ram, AFR heads,cam, headers,) LOL

Lol, "somewhat stock". That's a nice setup man. And I totally get it, there is just something sexy about a TPI setup. I remember as a kid seeing these Vettes in mags and being totally in love with the TPI and early C4 Vettes. That's why I took the plunge and bought one. Some people laugh, but it literally was my childhood dream car and it started my love for cars.



[QUOTE=pologreen1;1595561448]Restoring a c4 and LS are not in the same group. Sounds more like repairing and or modifying a C4.

1. Are you doing the work?
2. If not does the person doing the work understand how to fabricate (even if drop in)
3. Does the person know how to handle computers and wiring?

My initial intent was to restore the car and keep things as they were. I've been doing most of the resto work, but as far as engine build/install, I absolutely will defer to a true professional. As I got into the car, perhaps I was a bit overwhelmed with everything that needed to be touched. Obviously 29 years of poor maintenance and poor work on the car that needs to be reversed and cleaned up. Entire interior needs to be redone as well, carpet, seats, etc. That's why the LS idea came to mind. Was thinking if I need to touch everything anyway, why not update. But then my gut is yelling at me that i'm ruining the character of the car, which I have to agree with. I didn't get exact quotes, just compiling parts estimates and talking to a few friends at shops on labor rates/estimates, etc. When I say comparable, I mean they came in around $1,300-$2,000 difference with the SBC buildup being on the lower end. As I get more serious i'll firm up costs and shoot them back here and see what you all think.


[QUOTE=rklessdriver;1595562538] Very easy to meet or exceed your stated goals. Money wise, I guess it depends on who your dealing with. IF you are really serious, I have a customer that is upgrading his C4 Vette from daily driver to a more race oriented car and his current GEN I SBC engine can be bought pretty cheap.... 530+HP, 480+TQ, complete with dyno sheets, full build documentation...


I really appreciate that feedback, truly. This is why I came to you all, so I could get this diversity in feedback. The ZF6 is in excellent shape, crisp and clean, love the feel. Plus the PO had just dropped a new clutch with only 2-3k miles on it. So I definitely have no intention of dumping the trans. That sounds like one hell of a SBC there. I appreciate the offer, but honestly, i'm too early in this process to accept.



I have to admit, at first I really did come into this post with the full intent of bagging the L98 and going LS and was looking for confirmation. But my heart and gut is telling me to stay SBC/TPI (or TPI variant) and keep that 80s vibe I fell in love with.
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Old 09-13-2017, 02:42 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rklessdriver View Post
I have tons of real world experience with GEN I SBC's. Very easy to meet or exceed your stated goals. Money wise, I guess it depends on who your dealing with.

I also have a bit of experience with LSX swaps....

They are cool little engines and have their advantages but don't think it's all advantages.....Here it is from my point of view.

It's super easy to drop and LSX into a C4 Vette and make it run/drive. It's a totally different level of work if you want to keep the AC and heat, cruise control ect... The accessory drive is totally different and could be a real PITA to fit one with everything on it in a C4 Vette due to the steering rack position.

LSX swap can be done pretty cheap with a junk yard engine and hacked up factory harness. Not so much with a new GM crate which, LS3 ($6,700) or the LS3/525 ($8400) and that is just for the bare engine... standalone harness and ECM is more money. You add a little complexity with the ZF6 trans but there is a swap FW/Clutch and bell housing available, it's just not cheap. Other option there is a T56 swap, which has it's own head aches if you want to stay 6spd manual.

People often over state the power capability of stock LS engines.... yea you can make a lot of power with them.... But seriously LS engines have cast cranks, PM rods and Hyper Pistons.... that crap will fail and often does.... People always quote the success stories but being in the racing engine business, I can tell you that there are 10 failures for every one that makes it. If you want a really powerful & reliable LS engine, you need to build one right... just like any other engine.

IF you are really serious, I have a customer that is upgrading his C4 Vette from daily driver to a more race oriented car and his current GEN I SBC engine can be bought pretty cheap.... 530+HP, 480+TQ, complete with dyno sheets, full build documentation.....
Will
Great advice here

Nothing wrong with keeping it Gen I

Steve

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Old 09-13-2017, 03:09 PM   #17
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You can get to your goals with a gen 1 stroker. The parts don't have to be exotic, either. A 383 with lower shelf products can actually come in under the cost (and headache) of swapping an LS motor in. The gen 1 architecture would mate up to the ZF without issue. ZF Doc and a few others on here have made LS motors hook up to a ZF but it's not a simple part order and you're done. I've seen the junkyard LS swaps in cars with upgrades to make the power but I agree with rklessdriver: those that didn't make the swap work aren't flocking to the internet to share stories about the failures.

If you're having a shop do the work for you, keep it simple: go gen 1.
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Old 09-13-2017, 03:42 PM   #18
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you love the 80s vibe, have a good zf want big tq down low

So build the biggest stroke SBC you can afford to ;383, 396 even a 406 put the best TPI system on it you can afford (FIRST, ported to death superram etc) there you go. Got the look, and power without big rpm which is expensive and unreliable keep your trans and rearend gear, go play. If you get the itch for more a short runner intake will unleash that real quick like.

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Old 09-13-2017, 05:38 PM   #19
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I've snooped around and gathered that you probably have to change the tone rings if you want to get the ABS to work, I could be wrong. Also, supposedly the FX3 I have could work without signal from the VSS but I hear mixed opinions on that. Not sure but people have said it might be difficult to get the electronics to work so if you have the Atari dash, you are lucky. If not, more fabbing to get gauges into the dash.

For what you want to make, I think it would be cheaper to make a stroker motor do that job than to shoehorn an LS motor in.
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Old 09-13-2017, 10:08 PM   #20
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JasBass, the holley LS motor mount adapters don't fit. I used motor mount adapters that had several different installation positions. I got them off eBay and same for the headers.

I thought that the LS swap was pretty easy and straight forward. Can easily be done in your garage.

The LQ9 block is rated for over 1000HP and same goes for the crank. The rods are around 600HP. I installed ARP2000 rod bolts into mine. I'm probably around the 360rwhp or 400 crank HP area with my car. Totally street friendly and gets better fuel mileage than the L98.

I prefer the look of the new LS vs the SBC engine, but honestly there isn't much difference between the two once you remove all the wires.
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