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2020 Corvette of the Year Finalist (appearance mods)
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Originally Posted by MatthewMiller
From light to light in either your car or mine is most likely traction limited. It is in my car, anyway, with tires that have grip along the lines of Sumitomos. First gear is silly at any rpm, and second will blow the tires away most of the time, too.
Do you have stock gearing? I do, and my car at stock redline (6400rpm) is good for 109mph in third gear.
Autocross runs are almost always done in second gear, with no shifting. As such, they tend to emphasize flexible engine performance with wide power bands. Again, even with BFG Rival S tires, I usually can't use WOT coming out of corners in second gear. If I had a TPI intake, it would just be harder to manage traction at low rpms. OTOH, the ability to pull hard to near redline is helpful for the faster parts of courses. I spent years racing at TPI-equipped 92 Camaro in a stock class. If I had ever moved to a class that allowed different intakes, a short-runner intake is the first mod I would have done! And in my experience, whatever is good for autocross runs is also good for street driving: the most flexible engine possible, that requires the least shifting to get good performance.
Well. 109mph isn't what I'd consider "ideal" for a street car. I'm thinking 80-85...MAYBE 90mph for passing on the hwy? Anything above that would invite the type of citations that would be costly in several ways.
My gearing is stock @ 3.33. That's not "bad" enough to swap higher IMO. At least, haven't felt it a priority. If you consider 90mph the top-end "requirement" for my 3rd gear (ZF6), maybe it will make sense why I was thinking a mega-ported TPI would pull the hardest for the practical limitations I set for myself/car.
In reality, my top-end landed lower than I hoped. That's one reason I might try the HSR. Before I do that, I need to pull the sidepipes and see how that dynos out. It might just be my exhaust.
Regarding the auto-crosser who tried an HSR then went back, it probably did have to do with the class he wanted to race in. With a TPI, he was probably able to race in 300rwhp class? (350ci with a hotcam). Obviously a largetube intake is still an intake swap so I'm not sure it had to do with the kind/number of modifications? That's why I'm thinking it had more to do with hp. IIRC, he won quite often in the lower hp class that the TPI would allow. With the HSR, competition was a lot higher.
I am not going to get all involved in this discussion but a ZZ4 cam would help you with torque down low. To do what you want which is maximize low end power you need to get cylinder filling at low RPM to do that you need to close the intake valve earlier to build more dynamic compression. (The ZZ4 cam will do that) That being said you also want to open the valve fast to get air into the engine as soon as you can to maximize your power and torque output. You need to get the opening and closing points of the stock cam and pick a cam that closes the intake valve sooner or that same as stock but opens and closes it much faster then stock to allow as much air to enter the engine as possible. That means you need to look at overall duration and .05 duration and lift and installed CL to determine a cam that will accomplish your goals. The stock cam has slow lazy ramps that are designed to be easy on the valve train with no audible valve train noise. This does hurt down low torque production since no compression can be built until the valve if fully closed. Talk to a cam designer to have them help you since you do not have all of the necessary information on any of the stock cams to determine your opening and closing points. You need to study these numbers to pick a cam that will boost low end power yet still pick up the mid range torque that you desire. The numbers you have listed for cam specs are to generic to help you identify something that will accomplish your goal.
FYI, there is a very rare superram intake that was designed for LT1 engines, that would also help you.
I am adding on to this post because I am not sure if you noticed the comment on the superam intake for the LT1. I have attached a older post where this intake was discussed with good results. https://www.camaroz28.com/forums/lt1...lbs-tq-381876/ I believe this intake or a standard superram intake for the SBC (which is easier to find) could be easily adapted to fit on an LT1 and do what you are looking for.
I am adding on to this post because I am not sure if you noticed the comment on the superam intake for the LT1. I have attached a older post where this intake was discussed with good results. https://www.camaroz28.com/forums/lt1...lbs-tq-381876/ I believe this intake or a standard superram intake for the SBC (which is easier to find) could be easily adapted to fit on an LT1 and do what you are looking for.
Thank you so much for your suggestion. I will consider it as I am still learning about the upsides and downsides to using a TPI intake or even the Super Ram intake.
I have a nagging feeling about my LT1 intake, OR TPIS miniram copy. This intake IS optimized for higher end RPM performance, yet is it still worth it to find an intake that is optimized for the RPM band that I am trying to achieve? I keep bouncing back and fourth between my stock LT1 and how to use a TPI intake, to port it out fully to expand it's airflow and torque curve YET taking away from the off idle torque. I know this is an elaborate "balancing" game of components, so my head is spinning on how best to pursue this.
The TPI intake with it's artificial "supercharger effect" from 2000 to 3000 RPM and then power drop off at 4000 RPM has me wondering about fuel efficiency as well. It is a headache when I think about it and look things up and still find myself with more questions to ask and plenty of pissed of guys on this forum.
Last edited by Phoenix'97; 11-17-2017 at 08:52 AM.
2020 Corvette of the Year Finalist (appearance mods)
C4 of Year Winner (appearance mods) 2019
Originally Posted by bjankuski
I am adding on to this post because I am not sure if you noticed the comment on the superam intake for the LT1. I have attached a older post where this intake was discussed with good results. https://www.camaroz28.com/forums/lt1...lbs-tq-381876/ I believe this intake or a standard superram intake for the SBC (which is easier to find) could be easily adapted to fit on an LT1 and do what you are looking for.
It's been mentioned to him Brian. Then he posted about preferring longtube, then that nothing would fit under his TransAm hood, then that it might, then that he wanted low torque so much that high-rpm torque didn't matter, then that he wants an HSR like powerband (in this thread).
When he wanted an LT1 longtube intake, I pointed him to a recent sale auction listing for one that didn't seem to sell. Do you think he attempted to see if it was still for sale? NO
He just wants to talk and talk and talk .... and does so in circles. He sounds coherent for a couple of days, then drugs must intervene.
At the earliest stages of conversation, I pleaded for him to revisit his goals and what he wanted. Take some time and drive a few cars (from TPI to LSx)....then decide FOR SURE what he wants. Do you think he did that? You should have SURE he was about a TPI -- while IGNORING the eBay unit. You should have read how he complained that he'd NEVER be able to find another...while ignoring THAT one.
He's got the intensity and focus of a 3-yr-old learning about the world. And... his project window went from 2...to 3 yrs. I think it's fine when someone wants to learn...or just talk. This guy doesn't seem honest about it. Plus, he's living in multiple forums and playing issues/facts against each other. Not what I'd consider .... especially for someone without near-term, realistic intentions to build.
It's been mentioned to him Brian. Then he posted about preferring longtube, then that nothing would fit under his TransAm hood, then that it might, then that he wanted low torque so much that high-rpm torque didn't matter, then that he wants an HSR like powerband (in this thread).
When he wanted an LT1 longtube intake, I pointed him to a recent sale auction listing for one that didn't seem to sell. Do you think he attempted to see if it was still for sale? NO
He just wants to talk and talk and talk .... and does so in circles. He sounds coherent for a couple of days, then drugs must intervene.
At the earliest stages of conversation, I pleaded for him to revisit his goals and what he wanted. Take some time and drive a few cars (from TPI to LSx)....then decide FOR SURE what he wants. Do you think he did that? You should have SURE he was about a TPI -- while IGNORING the eBay unit. You should have read how he complained that he'd NEVER be able to find another...while ignoring THAT one.
He's got the intensity and focus of a 3-yr-old learning about the world. And... his project window went from 2...to 3 yrs. I think it's fine when someone wants to learn...or just talk. This guy doesn't seem honest about it. Plus, he's living in multiple forums and playing issues/facts against each other. Not what I'd consider .... especially for someone without near-term, realistic intentions to build.
What point don't you understand about researching and soul searching and trying to figure out what I want to do with my LT1, DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND? You don't need to keep on commenting if you honestly feel that I am pulling your chain!
With regards to that intake you mentioned, I am not going to throw down $1000+ dollars on something when I need that money for college and while I am unemployed. That would be a smart investment on my end so soon into this on-off research I am doing in my spare time or when I need a break from school work.
What point is there for me to drive in a TPI motor car and an LS motor car when I am focused on improving my LT1 motor car and I want it to behave like a TPI motor? I told you, engine swapping is out of the question and I would rather dump money on modifying the block that I already have and that my PCM and wiring already exist for in my car.
When I have guys pushing me away from pursuing a TPI intake, yeah, you will find me with circular comments! Just when I thought I should keep my LT1 intake, I find some reason to consider an intake that will help me capitalize on my shifted torque curve which is why I should not give up on the TPI intake. Furthermore, I don't do drugs and I don't even drink anymore. So knock off the b.s. Greg. Your comment here is quite misleading and strays from my actual comments in this thread and my other two. Are you the one intoxicated on something?
I am going to need those three years or whenever to research diligently and understand the lingo in order to piece together a collection of parts for my LT1 motor that will help give me the performance that I am seeking. I can't thank GrumpyVette enough for his website.
2020 Corvette of the Year Finalist (appearance mods)
C4 of Year Winner (appearance mods) 2019
Originally Posted by Phoenix'97
What point don't you understand about researching and soul searching and trying to figure out what I want to do with my LT1, DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND? You don't need to keep on commenting if you honestly feel that I am pulling your chain!
With regards to that intake you mentioned, I am not going to throw down $1000+ dollars on something when I need that money for college and while I am unemployed. That would be a smart investment on my end so soon into this on-off research I am doing in my spare time or when I need a break from school work.
Then push yourself away from the forum and concentrate on school...or get a job to start finding parts when you DO come across them. I didn't buy stuff to build mine overnight either.
Originally Posted by Phoenix'97
What point is there for me to drive in a TPI motor car and an LS motor car when I am focused on improving my LT1 motor car and I want it to behave like a TPI motor? I told you, engine swapping is out of the question and I would rather dump money on modifying the block that I already have and that my PCM and wiring already exist for in my car.
Nothing wrong with modifying a car how you want. Your posts go from serious/focused to all over the map. And NOT in a way that can be explained with confusion. Remember ONE OF THE FIRST THINGS I SAID WAS TO DETERMINE YOUR GOALS....Yet you said NO....I KNOW what I'm doing.
B.S. Dude...you don't have a clue yet.
Driving cars helps you understand how different intakes, technologies, and cars FOCUSED on various RPMs perform. That's a no-brainer I think any "college student" should be able to understand. With more focus on learning, maybe you'll "get there" some day.
Originally Posted by Phoenix'97
When I have guys pushing me away from pursuing a TPI intake, yeah, you will find me with circular comments! Just when I thought I should keep my LT1 intake, I find some reason to consider an intake that will help me capitalize on my shifted torque curve which is why I should not give up on the TPI intake.
Well go back and look at the HSR build you JUST said you WANTED YOURS to look like. (I'll give you a hint it's on the last page. I'll give you ANOTHER hint...If you made a mistake, You made ZERO effort to correct it.)
Originally Posted by Phoenix'97
Furthermore, I don't do drugs and I don't even drink anymore.
Congrats on your first day of being sober! Welcome back!!!!
I am NOT the only one that things you are all over the map. They SAY one of every four people has a mental issue. Look around...if the other seem normal.....
Originally Posted by Phoenix'97
So knock off the b.s. Greg.
Like I said....1 in 4. Look around!
Originally Posted by Phoenix'97
Your comment here is quite misleading and strays from my actual comments in this thread and my other two. Are you the one intoxicated on something?
I am going to need those three years or whenever to research diligently and understand the lingo in order to piece together a collection of parts for my LT1 motor that will help give me the performance that I am seeking. I can't thank GrumpyVette enough for his website.
I think you've thanked grumpy 3 or 4 times by now. How come every time we MAKE you grumpy, you THANK him? Eh....I guess it makes sense!
FWIW guy (who should be studying more for good grades), I recently dated a woman who needed some cold-hard sit-down "discussions" to learn better relationship skills. I tried and tried and tried to explain how some VERY bad parenting affected SOME of her social skills. Finally, I gave up. Then....I found something from Bill Murray that explained my frustration with her.
Last edited by GREGGPENN; 11-17-2017 at 11:38 PM.
Reason: fixed a sentence
GREGGPENN, after this comment, you seriously are calling me, "all over the map"? My goals should be very clear for a daily driver that I wish to shift it's torque production from higher RPM to lower RPM with the emphasis of this torque starting from idle and pushing it as far as 5000 RPM. With a custom grind camshaft based on the ZZ4, working in tandem with a TPI intake with TPIS/AS&M big runners, and possibly extrude honed, with Dart Pro1 180cc heads, custom long tube headers built to emphasize low RPM torque production, and using my factory 3.42 rear axle ratio, I should have myself a build that gives me the SOTP feel I desire while making for an excellent and "L98 feeling" fun motor.
Originally Posted by GREGGPENN
Remember ONE OF THE FIRST THINGS I SAID WAS TO DETERMINE YOUR GOALS....Yet you said NO....I KNOW what I'm doing.
I never said this, Gregg. Your mind is foggy.
Originally Posted by GREGGPENN
Driving cars helps you understand how different intakes, technologies, and cars FOCUSED on various RPMs perform. That's a no-brainer I think any "college student" should be able to understand. With more focus on learning, maybe you'll "get there" some day.
I don't need to drive different cars to realize that I want immediate torque and SOTP feel when I mash down the accelerator on my car and open up the throttle, full! Everything points to wanting to make my LT1 behave like an L98 and without the need for a stroker. I have a ballpark idea on what I need to do.
Originally Posted by GREGGPENN
Well go back and look at the HSR build you JUST said you WANTED YOURS to look like. (I'll give you a hint it's on the last page. I'll give you ANOTHER hint...If you made a mistake, You made ZERO effort to correct it.)
Dude, I want my torque line above the HP line as long as possible before it plummets somewhere around 4500 to 5000 RPM. This was what I meant. I have compared the HSR torque curve against the extrude honed and big runner TPI and I favor the second torque graph.
I DID MAKE AN EFFORT TO CORRECT MY MISTAKE BY ADMITTING I SCREWED UP ON POSTING THAT GRAPH! I was at campus and "taking a break from school work" by quickly google searching for ZZ4 motor or ZZ4 camshaft torque curves and that graph was what popped up. What can I say? Nothing, because your goal now is to totally try to discredit me and I still can't figure out what the hell for! Lost business of some kind in my efforts? Making aware to the readers the options they have that don't revolve around high horsepower power production?
Originally Posted by GREGGPENN
I think you've thanked grumpy 3 or 4 times by now. How come every time we MAKE you grumpy, you THANK him? Eh....I guess it makes sense! :cheers
God this comment is stupid... Where did the serious Gregg go, the guy who knew everything about the TPI intake and was giving me advice? Your an *** now, and with comments such as this, leaning towards dumb as well, unless that is the alcohol talking!
Originally Posted by GREGGPENN
FWIW guy (who should be studying more for good grades), I recently dated a woman who needed some cold-hard sit-down "discussions" to learn better relationship skills. I tried and tried and tried to explain how some VERY bad parenting affected SOME of her social skills. Finally, I gave up. Then....I found something from Bill Murray that explained my frustration with her.
What the hell does this have to do with this thread? Dude, are you drunk or on some form of drugs? Or is it mental in terms of intelligence?
Still planning on the "deep snow" driving with your l98/lt1 car ?
I am driving her right now and we are long overdue for a major snow storm. I can always take a picture of her when the snow is deep and I am driving from campus.
You always burn more fuel in the cold, I am not sure tuning can help this fact and you spend more time idling in city traffic and your motor needs to work harder to propel your iced up and snow covered car in deep snow. And, I throw weights in the back of my hatchback so I burn a little more fuel. This is where the stroker motor may be a bad idea and why a regular change of camshaft with higher lift and shorter duration will balance my power with fuel efficiency. Again, I need to talk with the camshaft maker and I need to do my research and fine tune my knowledge of how the camshaft works for what my goal is.
How are we back to your tpi intake discussion? The L31 cam is designed for torque. Truck only application. It's designed for The Vortec head which is a non reverse cooling LT1 based head. You need focus on your intake once it's done, then you can order a custom cam specifically for you application. I think your l98 tpi LT1 intake discussion needs to stop. There are 2 extensive threads you started about your quest for a lt1tpi engine.
How are we back to your tpi intake discussion? The L31 cam is designed for torque. Truck only application. It's designed for The Vortec head which is a non reverse cooling LT1 based head. You need focus on your intake once it's done, then you can order a custom cam specifically for you application. I think your l98 tpi LT1 intake discussion needs to stop. There are 2 extensive threads you started about your quest for a lt1tpi engine.
1. claims to be in school
2. claims to have owned this car 10 years
3. claims to have been laughed off other forums
4. claims to drive car in winter
5. claims to want less power
6. claims to want LTR intake on hit lt1 motor
7. claims to plan on buying super fuels
8. claim people are picking on him
9. claims UI checks
[b]Dude, I want my torque line above the HP line as long as possible before it plummets somewhere around 4500 to 5000 RPM.
Bwaaaahaaaahaaaa! Torque and hp are always and only ever equal at 5252rpm. This is always the crossover point: torque is always higher than hp before 5252rpm, and hp is always higher than torque after 5252rpm. It is a mathematical requirement, by definition of "horsepower." You don't understand how any of this works!
2020 Corvette of the Year Finalist (appearance mods)
C4 of Year Winner (appearance mods) 2019
Originally Posted by Phoenix'97
God this comment is stupid... Where did the serious Gregg go, the guy who knew everything about the TPI intake and was giving me advice? Your an *** now, and with comments such as this, leaning towards dumb as well, unless that is the alcohol talking! .... What the hell does this have to do with this thread? Dude, are you drunk or on some form of drugs? Or is it mental in terms of intelligence?
Nope...sitting in a old folks home just crapping my pants.
Since you haven't taken any of my other suggestions seriously, try THIS one: Assuming you really want to know "where the serious Gregg went".
Read back through your last three threads and tell us how you managed to alienate multiple people in each thread. It will be a learning experience for you. We can call it a college assignment. No...extra credit.
Since you have three years, no pressure on completion date either.
Good luck!
PS. I'll add to Polo's list...
Originally Posted by pologreen1
1. claims to be in school
2. claims to have owned this car 10 years
3. claims to have been laughed off other forums
4. claims to drive car in winter
5. claims to want less power
6. claims to want LTR intake on hit lt1 motor
7. claims to plan on buying super fuels
8. claim people are picking on him
9. claims UI checks
Wants to CHOKE motor at 3k rpms then REALLY CHOKE it by 4500.
Wants maximum torque UNTIL 4500 rpms.
Worried about mpg (cost) but wants to use expensive high octane fuel.
Will save fuel by programming for less use during decel.
Can't modify/cut hood...but maybe he can after all.
Thinks cutting down and modifying TPI (in addition to his hood) is better idea than a stroker kit.
Wants to cut down TPI even though LONG TUBES is what he wants for TORQUE!!!
Believes "snow float" on fat tires is best approach to winter.
Too cheap to buy beater for snow but willing to modify custom intake to fit under hood.
Doesn't think a stroker is a good idea -- even though INSTANT torque is his goal. Why? (cost, mileage, safety, etc...)
Doesn't like gears to create overall bump in torque because it'll make him drive in higher rpms
HATES high rpms
Wants better performance in 6th gear on hwy and FOR SURE doesn't want to hurt hwy efficiency
Trolls for cam to meet these requirements then asks another forum to explain why WE are feeding HIM bullshit with L31 stump puller cam.
Wants to ask us multiple questions per day but can't take the time to post correct, valid graphs/link to support conversation.
That's all I can think of RIGHT OFF THE TOP OF MY HEAD!!!
Care to amend ANYTHING you've said?
Last edited by GREGGPENN; 11-18-2017 at 12:16 AM.
Reason: Forgot the MOST important goal....6th gear!!!
2020 Corvette of the Year Finalist (appearance mods)
C4 of Year Winner (appearance mods) 2019
Originally Posted by MatthewMiller
Bwaaaahaaaahaaaa! Torque and hp are always and only ever equal at 5252rpm. This is always the crossover point: torque is always higher than hp before 5252rpm, and hp is always higher than torque after 5252rpm. It is a mathematical requirement, by definition of "horsepower." You don't understand how any of this works!
Geez put a supercharger on it that spools up quick and runs out of air at 5k rpm and call it a day. You will have more torque than you know what to do with it all.
Nope...sitting in a old folks home just crapping my pants.
Since you haven't taken any of my other suggestions seriously, try THIS one: Assuming you really want to know "where the serious Gregg went".
Read back through your last three threads and tell us how you managed to alienate multiple people in each thread. It will be a learning experience for you. We can call it a college assignment. No...extra credit.
Since you have three years, no pressure on completion date either.
Good luck!
PS. I'll add to Polo's list...
Wants to CHOKE motor at 3k rpms then REALLY CHOKE it by 4500.
Wants maximum torque UNTIL 4500 rpms.
Worried about mpg (cost) but wants to use expensive high octane fuel.
Will save fuel by programming for less use during decel.
Can't modify/cut hood...but maybe he can after all.
Thinks cutting down and modifying TPI (in addition to his hood) is better idea than a stroker kit.
Wants to cut down TPI even though LONG TUBES is what he wants for TORQUE!!!
Believes "snow float" on fat tires is best approach to winter.
Too cheap to buy beater for snow but willing to modify custom intake to fit under hood.
Doesn't think a stroker is a good idea -- even though INSTANT torque is his goal. Why? (cost, mileage, safety, etc...)
Doesn't like gears to create overall bump in torque because it'll make him drive in higher rpms
HATES high rpms
Wants better performance in 6th gear on hwy and FOR SURE doesn't want to hurt hwy efficiency
Trolls for cam to meet these requirements then asks another forum to explain why WE are feeding HIM bullshit with L31 stump puller cam.
Wants to ask us multiple questions per day but can't take the time to post correct, valid graphs/link to support conversation.
That's all I can think of RIGHT OFF THE TOP OF MY HEAD!!!
Care to amend ANYTHING you've said?
I hate to read through all of it again to ind out if the part about lowering the engine to make the intake fit was his idea or someone else...
Maybe he can write a summary of what he has learned from his last 3-4 threads here about his lt1 build.
What is the other forum? I feel like I am missing out on something. It's like a tv show character you find funny you want to see their other works.
Did anybody mention the l98 cam specs or l98 motor swap to him?
Last edited by pologreen1; 11-18-2017 at 06:41 PM.
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11-17-2017, 01:06 AM
