ValourUnbound

It's winter and thus it's time to work in the garage because it's raining. My current problem revolves around the starter.
I could explain it in words, but I have something better. A video. More of an audio clip, since nothing really happens in the video.

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In this video the car does not start, but that is because a low battery. I bought a battery tender and now it does start. The chatter is still present on both cold and warm starts. I picked up a new battery just in case, but now it only starts faster and still makes that noise.

The FSM indicates that I should check the starter motor electrical connection. I'd love too but I cannot find it. Is it on the top of the starter, and if so, is it accessible without removing the starter? I have the car on stands ready to go but I would prefer not to remove something if it isn't the problem (I've had issues in the past with removing perfectly functioning components and breaking them on installation [rust and corrosion sometimes hold things together]).

Tl;Dr:
Can I access the starter motor wire without removing the starter?
Is there anything else I should check?

84 4+3

IIRC dropping the starter is pretty easy. Had to lower it to get the plate off the bellhousing for the oil pan to clear when I dropped it. I think if you use a mirror you can do it, it should be almost on top. Check the wires like you said. I think there is a distribution block somewhere as well so check that. It would appear to me that you have either a voltage drop issue or a failing starter solenoid. You're on the right track in my opinion. Personally I'd just drop the starter if you can't do it. Wasn't too bad if memory serves.

81c3

I would first make sure the + cable at the starter is clean and tight. Battery sounds like its supplying voltage... If you know all the connections and grounds are tight, I would then suspect the starter itself.

ValourUnbound

Exactly my problem! Where is the hot wire? Is it on the top of the starter? Meaning I'd have to go under the car (easy) and get a mirror to see it (harder)?

84 4+3

You may be able to get a wrench on it from the top depending. I honestly don't remember but you may... You should be able to see the wire from the top running across though. Also the smaller Ignition wire could be checked as well but I doubt that is the problem.

ValourUnbound

Alright I'll give it a try.
I think I'll also jack the car up one more notch and see if that gives me enough room to bend my elbow.
I will report back!

81c3

The + battery cable leads to the hot post on the starter solenoid. On the solenoid there is also the wire that leads to the S terminal, purple I think, which is only hot when the key is in the start position. I would bet its one of the two that might be loose.

If you go dinking around in there with a wrench, please remove the battery cables at the battery side or youll be welding with your wrench if you short the + cable.

I would just drop the starter, clean it up and have a close look at everything.... You can also have it tested free at any of your local chain auto parts houses.

Tom400CFI

The problem is that the starter isn't getting enough power from the battery. That is for 1 of 2 reasons;
1. The battery is low
2. the power isn't making it to the starter (bad continuity through the wires.

If the battery has been confirmed GOOD, then...

This^ But it's not going to be the little wire. It is the big one. The big one connects the battery to the solenoid, the solenoid connects that, to the starter drive motor. Here is how it's put together in your car, basically;




I'd start by making things easy on my self; I'd check the connections on the battery first...THEN move to the more difficult to check, starter.


.

WVZR-1

OP - if you've supplied power to the starter with a known good battery and the clatter is just faster I'd say you're likely needing to remove the starter. On an '84 you need to pay particular attention to everything that you remove from the starter posts.

On the larger post where the + cable from the battery goes there's also several (3 I believe) fusible links that supply power to nearly the entire car. You need to pay attention to what you remove from where and be sure they go back there. All should have a separate ring terminal.

Remove the starter once you confirm the larger battery cable to the starter is secure and the clatter is still present. If there an OE label on the starter I'd say you just repair yours and avoid an auto parts reman that's been built maybe a dozen times.

The 10MT starter is a quite straight forward "refresh' if yours is original still.

Solenoid and starter wiring should be similar to this

http://www.delcoremy.com/Documents/S...RTING-MOTORS-(

ValourUnbound

Thanks for all the replies

I was eventually able to get it out, so I took it to NAPA who told me that me + terminal was loose. So I tightened the bolt, stuck everything back in and tested it.
WVZR-1: thanks for the tip about the fusible links. I saw those when putting it back together and was concerned(as I didn't remember them), but thanks to you I was able to put them back on without worrying about starting a fire.

To test it, I pulled the FP fuse, because it's late and I didn't want to wake the neighborhood. It cranked correctly and without chattering, so that loose terminal was the cause.
However, I now have a new problem. It didn't stop cranking when I pulled the key out. It only stopped when I disconnected the battery. I am going to try it again in the morning with the FP fuse and see how that goes.

ValourUnbound

Well it's working now. Sort of.

I ended up swapping the entire starter/solenoid assembly. I had played with the solenoid on the old one a few times and it always seemed to stick. I also couldn't figure out a good way to bench test it. While I could have applied 12V to the S terminal, removing it would release it as I know it opens correctly when power is removed. Which means I would need to provide 12V to the motor as well and look for shorts. Between strapping it down and sourcing a battery to test it, this wasn't happening. At the end of the day, replacement solenoids were $25. A "new" starter was $43. I had the starter already so I stuck it in, and now it starts great. Quicker than before, no clicking, no sticking. As usual, there is a new problem now. Code 42. At first I thought it was because of the FP fuse I had removed, but I stuck it back in, reset the code and it came back on start up.

Before I go into that, I have a nother question. Should I return the Declo Remy starter I have for the core fee? Or have it rebuilt myself and return the NAPA one I bought. Where would I even go to do that? I suppose I could do it myself but if the solenoid is $25 I'm assuming the rest of the refresh parts would add up to a lot more than $43. Any thoughts on that would be appreciated. I'll edit this with the model number of the old one when I'm home from work, in case that makes a difference.

Back to code 42. I've looked at the FSM procedure and it involves lots of jumpering. At one point I found a thread on here that suggests the knock sensor could be the problem. Considering the knock sensor is near the starter, I'm going to start there. Any idea on what I should look for? AFAIK, it's a one wire part, and code 42 is an open/ground. I guess I should check the wire to make sure the insulation is all present and maybe consider replacing it if it's missing. Any other ideas? I'm not opposed to working through the FSM flowchart but I figured I should look where I was messing around before starting it.

WVZR-1

If the starter you look off could be verified as to being original 1998400, 1998435 or 1998557 I'd just sacrifice the core and keep the original. If it appears to be a replacement then maybe you 'toss a coin'. Parts for the 10MT should be everywhere. If you actually had a bad solenoid you do maybe just brushes, bushings and check the fork, plunger etc along with the switch.

The original starter would have value to an NCRS type doing a restoration.

Here's a parts list and an image. Typically you'd do 3,4,5,6,25,31 & 32 for a tune-up.

ValourUnbound

The number that's on mine is: 1109437
http://www.delcoremy.com/find-a-part...etails/1109437

I can't tell if it's newer or what. The part number seems to precede the ones you've linked (10MT100 vs 10MT101) but I can't be sure if that really means anything. It's certainly been rebuilt before so it's probably not the one that came with the car.

Only thing I've found online so far is it being installed in tractors. But that ebay listing looked funny, the crank opening was in the wrong place.

WVZR-1

What part# did NAPA invoice you for. I believe that NAPA now has maybe 3 levels of service and 2 brands. maybe more. Regardless I guess you just use the old as a core but maybe retain it for a while. It shouldn't have been but $10 - $17

81c3

Check to see if you accidentally broke the wire or connector to the knock sensor while pulling the starter out.

ValourUnbound

76016. Looks like NAPA Pro Series Electrical.

That's the plan, hopefully I'll get to it tomorrow.

WVZR-1

That's off of an invoice, the box label or a label on the starter?

The 1109437 that you mentioned was on the old was just a "visual/physical" match to what the car should have had. Internally is it and does it offer same cranking specifications.

Take the 3 numbers that I gave you to the same NAPA store and have them use that as a reference and let them look. The 1109437 in a NAPA reference refer to very different 10MT specifications. The 1109437 is a LOW TORQUE SPEC and any of the 3 I mentioned are all HIGH TORQUE. I don't even see a 76016 in a 'national' NAPA PRO reference.

ValourUnbound

76016 is what my invoice from Napa said. Box says the same. When I searched I found https://www.napaonline.com/en/p/NAE76016

It's entirely possible that a PO put the wrong starter in.

ValourUnbound

I checked that yesterday and it appears that the knock sensor is plugged in, not shorted to ground and not damaged. However that doesn't confirm that there isn't an open. For that, I will need to find the other end of the wire. I will check the FSM for that shortly, but some hints would be appreciated (the FSM does not always map nicely to reality, I've found).

WVZR-1

I'd think that the CODE 42 is most likely NOT the knock sensor or related and I'd do the actual diagnostics for the trouble code. It's an EST code so ... Could it be? I'd think unlikely.

Did you do anything with NAPA for maybe a correct starter?