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It should be a 2.59 unless your car is a Z51 or otherwise had the "performance axle ratio." Upping that to 3.07 or 3.33 all by itself would make a real difference in how your car accelerates.
So the cam will make a real difference in how the car sounds at idle. But if sound is the only reason you would replace the cam, I would advise you to ride in some C4 automatics that have a similar cam installed first. You may decide that the downsides just aren't worth it. I addition to a loss of a bit of off-idle grunt, you'll have to deal with reprogramming, worse in-town fuel mileage, etc. OTOH, you could just do the headers and exhaust right now and avoid all the other mods, even including the tune (if you get AIR-compatible headers with cats and can make the downstream O2 sensors connect). Combine just the exhaust with a steeper rear gear, and you will have a better sounding car that is noticeably faster, for a whole lot less money and time/hassle than doing the cam. You can also add the cam later, if you have already done those things. It's just a question of how far you want to go with it all.
yeah thats it.. sorry couldnt remember.. all I know is that the spec says its the lowest of them all. ugh
My thought is, my lt1 1996 exhaust is pretty good from a performance standpoint.
If I buy a header and have a shop weld it to my existing exhaust where the only unwelded connection point is the cats back how will it sound?
My thought is the cats likely suck up SOME sound. I got under my car last night and looked; the exhaust is quite good.. I cannot believe the time GM took on it.
I do not like a popping open sounding exhaust so an x pipe or the existing res chamber are in my future anyway.
Will I find a shop who can do this? the only hard part is the drivers side which will require a O ring gasket type connection.. but I cant imagine its rocket science.
I live in a state with no inspections. I looked at the header "systems" with cats and they wont bolt up to the stocker because they appear far too long.
My thought is, my lt1 1996 exhaust is pretty good from a performance standpoint.
If I buy a header and have a shop weld it to my existing exhaust where the only unwelded connection point is the cats back how will it sound?
My thought is the cats likely suck up SOME sound. I got under my car last night and looked; the exhaust is quite good.. I cannot believe the time GM took on it.
I do not like a popping open sounding exhaust so an x pipe or the existing res chamber are in my future anyway.
Will I find a shop who can do this? the only hard part is the drivers side which will require a O ring gasket type connection.. but I cant imagine its rocket science.
I live in a state with no inspections. I looked at the header "systems" with cats and they wont bolt up to the stocker because they appear far too long.
thoughts?
The cats on your stock C4 are way up close to the factory manifolds. You'll have to relocate or eliminate them altogether. I'm not sure that there is room between the collectors of long-tube headers and the center resonator to fit cats. Hopefully someone else here can chime in that's done this.
Yes, the cats do quiet things a little bit. It would be louder without them.
The cats on your stock C4 are way up close to the factory manifolds. You'll have to relocate or eliminate them altogether. I'm not sure that there is room between the collectors of long-tube headers and the center resonator to fit cats. Hopefully someone else here can chime in that's done this.
Yes, the cats do quiet things a little bit. It would be louder without them.
Getting cats between lt header and stock pipes would be impossible I think. the lt header on one side would be so close to the pipe; perhaps 12" from it at best.
Im planning on no cats and will put up with any protest from environmentalists.
Id really like to use my stock setup for several reasons.. 1 of which is I have no place to store it. Its huge because its all welded together.
Getting cats between lt header and stock pipes would be impossible I think. the lt header on one side would be so close to the pipe; perhaps 12" from it at best.
Im planning on no cats and will put up with any protest from environmentalists.
Id really like to use my stock setup for several reasons.. 1 of which is I have no place to store it. Its huge because its all welded together.
Okay, that is feasible, I believe. For a 1996, though, you will need to use Jet DST tuning software to turn off the rear O2 sensors, and maybe the AIR test (assuming you even plan to get headers with AIR hookups). You can buy the tuning package and do this yourself, if you want. This part of tuning is easy. You shouldn't need to change any actual running parameters with just headers.
Thanks this is helpful. I dont mean to sound mean but this is the difference between an armchair quarterback and the real deal.
I cant help but assume you did more right off the bat though than just do your headers? Surely you changed your exhaust downstream?
I just cant seem to find anyone who left the stock exhaust in place and did the cats.. or left the stock exhaust alone and did LT headers.. but cant help but wonder what those to might sound like.
I did a lot of reading last night about exhaust systems and power and now am scared to death to touch mine which is 100% factory with no rust on it.
that being said, yesterday, in a cabin fever moment, I started her up with the garage doors shut. its sounded like a soccer mom mini van. IT HAS TO GO..
Im scared to death to mess with my unmolested 73k miles 96 but life is short. Im going get a few quotes on the hot cam install.. perhaps today whilst "working".
A few questions:
If headers are the key to the sound; how do I choose a set?
How do I choose a header back exhaust that works well with a cam?
What would the result be if I ran my stock exhaust be with headers, and perhaps no cats and a cam? Would it be too quiet?
How driveable is that car in the video I posted? Would I need to mess with the torque converter??
Would low end torque be hurt badly? Should I abandon this and go straight for rear end gear for now?
Anyone know where I can get a tune for a 96? what is involved? Is that a physical chip or a laptop upload?
thanks
1) I want to make sure that I did not inadvertently confuse you. Other than the long tube headers and RT cats (that came with the customized header package from Stainless Works) I did nothing else to the exhaust.
If you look at this picture below you can see several things. First off this is not my car. This is the C4 of a fellow who worked at stainless works at the time that that a bunch of us did a group buy from them. He sent me this pic of his vette to show me what the installation would look like.
So you can see that where the "collector Pipe" is at the end of the headers is where your stock cats would go. So there is NO room for them with long tube headers. Then right behind the collector pipe is the RT Cat. The cats sit right next to the trans drain pan. Behind each cat you see a custom length tube that then welds up to your stock system just ahead of the central resonator. So, everything behind those silvery pipes is your stock LT1 dual exhaust. And to me it really sounds good.
As I recall SW wanted to know if my car was an auto or a 6sp because those pipes that attach to the cats are pre-cut to specific lengths depending on the trans layout. That was another reason that I went with their product at the time.
2) Upon further reading I see that your vette came with the 2.59 rear ratio. I want to tell you that from my experience the most cost effective, most significant increase, to all round performance that you can get on a "bang-for-the-buck" basis ... is to have the 2.59 ratio ring & pinion swapped out for a stock 3.07 ratio. From 30 mph to 90 mph it will be like going from a V6 to a V8.
Okay, that is feasible, I believe. For a 1996, though, you will need to use Jet DST tuning software to turn off the rear O2 sensors, and maybe the AIR test (assuming you even plan to get headers with AIR hookups). You can buy the tuning package and do this yourself, if you want. This part of tuning is easy. You shouldn't need to change any actual running parameters with just headers.
Will the car go closed loop with out the rear o2s? Ive been trying to understand all that.. otherwise, my plan is to weld bungs into the piece that will go from the headers to the stock exhaust. Not sure of they are heated but I presume they are and if so then will be no issue.
I dont want to run open loop. I just think its a bad idea in general.
I suppose, if need be I could cut into the stock exhaust. I just know one day, if this car is cared for someone if not me will regret not having a stock exhaust.
1) I want to make sure that I did not inadvertently confuse you. Other than the long tube headers and RT cats (that came with the customized header package from Stainless Works) I did nothing else to the exhaust.
If you look at this picture below you can see several things. First off this is not my car. This is the C4 of a fellow who worked at stainless works at the time that that a bunch of us did a group buy from them. He sent me this pic of his vette to show me what the installation would look like.
So you can see that where the "collector Pipe" is at the end of the headers is where your stock cats would go. So there is NO room for them with long tube headers. Then right behind the collector pipe is the RT Cat. The cats sit right next to the trans drain pan. Behind each cat you see a custom length tube that then welds up to your stock system just ahead of the central resonator. So, everything behind those silvery pipes is your stock LT1 dual exhaust. And to me it really sounds good.
As I recall SW wanted to know if my car was an auto or a 6sp because those pipes that attach to the cats are pre-cut to specific lengths depending on the trans layout. That was another reason that I went with their product at the time.
2) Upon further reading I see that your vette came with the 2.59 rear ratio. I want to tell you that from my experience the most cost effective, most significant increase, to all round performance that you can get on a "bang-for-the-buck" basis ... is to have the 2.59 ratio ring & pinion swapped out for a stock 3.07 ratio. From 30 mph to 90 mph it will be like going from a V6 to a V8.
This is great but my 96 has two different connections to the cats.. once is a slip connection, just two pipes slipped and a brand clamp on it. and then the other is one of those donut type connections with three bolts.. I will take a few photos and post..
So, I doubt anyone makes anything turn key.. but I will let you comment when I post the photos..
And re:the rear end.. well.. that will likely be m #2 mod.. it was a toss up between headers and that for me. I need to first get the thing on jack stands so I can check the ratio myself.. who knows, maybe gm missed a code or something . Everything Ive read on this says I should shoot way over a 3.07 if I dont plan to be on the freeway all the time. This would turn my 4 speed into a much closer ratio gearbox.
PS thanks for this photo.. really helps me understand where the headers will wind up..
Last edited by barchetta1; 01-10-2018 at 07:34 PM.
I would love to buy some american made headers. But man.. $1500 for a set of headers?? what happened that they should cost this much? They are just headers. You make a jig, you buy mandrel bend tools and a tig welder then you build them. If you do them well and people love them, well then you sell lots of them.
EDIT: these are the connections I spoke of. Both are different and I guess its going to require customization. Cant help but wonder if this is the case why not just buy the "obx" stuff.
Last edited by barchetta1; 01-10-2018 at 08:51 PM.
I hear ya. When I bought them 12 years ago they cost $1,150 on a group buy (you don't see that being done too often on the C4 forum any more).
So in a dozen years the cost of .... the pipe they buy to make the headers probably has gone up as well as what they pay the people who weld and fabricate. I'm sure the cost for rent of the building as well as the cost to insure the facility and the people who work there not to mention the cost of utilities and waste disposal go up.
The costs are not all "one-time" costs.
Don't mean to preach .... spent 40 years helping to manage small and medium sized manufacturing companies.
If you look at this picture below you can see several things. First off this is not my car. This is the C4 of a fellow who worked at stainless works at the time that that a bunch of us did a group buy from them. He sent me this pic of his vette to show me what the installation would look like...
So you can see that where the "collector Pipe" is at the end of the headers is where your stock cats would go. So there is NO room for them with long tube headers. Then right behind the collector pipe is the RT Cat. The cats sit right next to the trans drain pan. Behind each cat you see a custom length tube that then welds up to your stock system just ahead of the central resonator. So, everything behind those silvery pipes is your stock LT1 dual exhaust. And to me it really sounds good.
Well, there you go. It can be done. But barchetta1, it won't be done using the stock cats or connections. If you ditch all that and do a setup like Mr. Peabody's, you're in business. They used slip fits for the cats instead of a typical 3-bolt collector flange. I think either would work. My first call would be to Stainless works to see if they can still sell you this whole setup. Maybe they have the specs laying around and can but the proper pieces together for you. At worst, you get the headers and two RT cats and get a local guy to fab it with mandrel-bent tubing between the cats and the resonator inlets. It wouldn't be cheap, but it would work well and sound good.
Will the car go closed loop with out the rear o2s? Ive been trying to understand all that.. otherwise, my plan is to weld bungs into the piece that will go from the headers to the stock exhaust. Not sure of they are heated but I presume they are and if so then will be no issue.
Yes, it will run in closed loop without the rear sensors. And yes, you definitely want your car to work in closed loop except for cold-startup and WOT, just as it does now. Those after-cat sensors do not have anything to do with fuel mixture parameters or any other closed-loop engine management. They are only there to allow the computer to test that the cats (and maybe the AIR system - I forget) are functioning properly - self-diagnosis of the emissions system, if you will. It's an OBD2-only thing. Before 96, there were no after-cat O2 sensors on these cars. My car has cats but no after-cat sensors and works very well.
HOWEVER, if you just delete those sensors and/or delete the cats without any changes to the PCM calibrations, you will get a check-engine light and a trouble code telling you your cats are bad. Even if you don't have emissions inspections, you don't want to drive around like that. And nobody else would ever buy the car from you in that conditions. That's where the tuning software comes in. You can turn that diagnostic test off, so it won't even check the inputs from those rear O2 sensors. That will prevent the trouble code and CEL. That's what you'd want to do.
If you end up with a setup like Peabody's, you might even be able to get O2 sensors behind the cats that would work. The question is whether or not the cats would be close enough to the heads to make the diagnostics happy. The further downstream the cats are, the quicker they "light off" and reach full operating efficiency. So even if you go through the effort and expense to install the after-cat sensors, I can't guarantee they'll work.
Well, there you go. It can be done. But barchetta1, it won't be done using the stock cats or connections. If you ditch all that and do a setup like Mr. Peabody's, you're in business. They used slip fits for the cats instead of a typical 3-bolt collector flange. I think either would work. My first call would be to Stainless works to see if they can still sell you this whole setup. Maybe they have the specs laying around and can but the proper pieces together for you. At worst, you get the headers and two RT cats and get a local guy to fab it with mandrel-bent tubing between the cats and the resonator inlets. It wouldn't be cheap, but it would work well and sound good.
Yes, it will run in closed loop without the rear sensors. And yes, you definitely want your car to work in closed loop except for cold-startup and WOT, just as it does now. Those after-cat sensors do not have anything to do with fuel mixture parameters or any other closed-loop engine management. They are only there to allow the computer to test that the cats (and maybe the AIR system - I forget) are functioning properly - self-diagnosis of the emissions system, if you will. It's an OBD2-only thing. Before 96, there were no after-cat O2 sensors on these cars. My car has cats but no after-cat sensors and works very well.
HOWEVER, if you just delete those sensors and/or delete the cats without any changes to the PCM calibrations, you will get a check-engine light and a trouble code telling you your cats are bad. Even if you don't have emissions inspections, you don't want to drive around like that. And nobody else would ever buy the car from you in that conditions. That's where the tuning software comes in. You can turn that diagnostic test off, so it won't even check the inputs from those rear O2 sensors. That will prevent the trouble code and CEL. That's what you'd want to do.
If you end up with a setup like Peabody's, you might even be able to get O2 sensors behind the cats that would work. The question is whether or not the cats would be close enough to the heads to make the diagnostics happy. The further downstream the cats are, the quicker they "light off" and reach full operating efficiency. So even if you go through the effort and expense to install the after-cat sensors, I can't guarantee they'll work.
Sounds like considering the state I live in that the most economical way to go is to dump the cats and downstream o2s.
I would love to buy some american made headers. But man.. $1500 for a set of headers?? what happened that they should cost this much? They are just headers. You make a jig, you buy mandrel bend tools and a tig welder then you build them. If you do them well and people love them, well then you sell lots of them.
EDIT: these are the connections I spoke of. Both are different and I guess its going to require customization. Cant help but wonder if this is the case why not just buy the "obx" stuff.
LOL $1500? That’s cheap. ARH’s for my Mustang were $2500 by the time I had the Jet Hot coated and shipping.
I would check with TPIS....I bought a couple of long tube ceramic coated headers for my car no where near those prices, but I know they have raised their prices in the last few years. They are a great C4 supplier for headers as they fit very well, an important component when choosing headers for these cars.
I would check with TPIS....I bought a couple of long tube ceramic coated headers for my car no where near those prices, but I know they have raised their prices in the last few years. They are a great C4 supplier for headers as they fit very well, an important component when choosing headers for these cars.
They dont seem to offer headers for the lt1 anymore. I suppose i could call next week. Im not paying $1600 for headers. Im not paying $1200, or $1000 for headers. The prices are out of control. I may forgo them or just go with obx and hope they last. they are 16g 304 stainless so I dont know why they would not last.
Headers are more than just a few pipes welded together....at least well made ones are anyway. Equal tube length is very important, tube size and collector length and placement....Thats why shorty headers are almost not worth the money... the power you get from headers is from the tube length and collectors.... Remember the real reason to buy headers is for power gains. Sound is a by product of that.... There are few bolt ons that can gain you the hp/tq that headers do..... you get what you pay for.
They dont seem to offer headers for the lt1 anymore. I suppose i could call next week. Im not paying $1600 for headers. Im not paying $1200, or $1000 for headers. The prices are out of control. I may forgo them or just go with obx and hope they last. they are 16g 304 stainless so I dont know why they would not last.
Wow, just looked at their website and it appears you are correct. It also appears they no longer supply AFR heads and now Dart heads......interesting......
I would still call them; my experience with them is to call and speak to Jim. Hopefully he is still there.
01-08-2018, 02:07 PM
