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View Poll Results: Would you be interested in a bulletproof IRS for the C4, assuming had a need?
Yes, i would be interested 22 68.75%
No, I'd rather just put a straight axle in 2 6.25%
Maybe, especially if it were available individually 4 12.50%
Only if it were cheaper than a straight axle 4 12.50%
Voters: 32. You may not vote on this poll

A truly Bolt in Bulletproof IRS, yes or no?

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Old 01-14-2018, 01:46 PM   #21
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So maybe the solution is an aftermarket C beam?
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Old 01-14-2018, 01:58 PM   #22
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It would be way easier to just cast in provisions to reuse your factory C-beam. If you're starting a bolt-in center section from scratch, that would be the best option. Adding in the cost of an aftermarket C-beam when cost is going to be your biggest selling point is moving in the opposite direction.
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Old 01-14-2018, 02:03 PM   #23
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That’s not correct. It is bolt in. As for the spacers, I’d prefer having some adjustment to account for the flex of the factory C beam. But I’m done trying to convince you. I’ll just get it all put together and prove it.
I doubt the "it is bolt-in" comment - your comment "I prefer having some adjustment" is only an attempted conversation around what I mentioned.

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So maybe the solution is an aftermarket C beam?
You're even more skeptical than you initially let on. Another attempt to have a conversation around the 'bolt in' features.


I'll be watchin' ........................................ ...........


I likely wouldn't need more than a set of dimensional prints for the Hammerhead to determine how best to adapt it. They would need to be very detailed. Snapshots prove nothing!!!!!!

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Old 01-14-2018, 02:04 PM   #24
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It would be way easier to just cast in provisions to reuse your factory C-beam. If you're starting a bolt-in center section from scratch, that would be the best option. Adding in the cost of an aftermarket C-beam when cost is going to be your biggest selling point is moving in the opposite direction.
The Hammerhead raw casting is made to fit multiple applications. The snout height was a compromise toward that. Making it fit multiple applications is the only way to make something like that cost effective. To make one specific to the C4 would easily double the cost of an already costly part. Using a spacer for the C beam is not unsound by any stretch of the imagination. If you were terribly concerned about it from a structural standpoint, you could pin the spacer or tig weld it in place. When people say that no one wants to make parts for these cars, itís easy to see why.
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Old 01-14-2018, 03:01 PM   #25
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The Hammerhead raw casting is made to fit multiple applications. The snout height was a compromise toward that. Making it fit multiple applications is the only way to make something like that cost effective. To make one specific to the C4 would easily double the cost of an already costly part. Using a spacer for the C beam is not unsound by any stretch of the imagination. If you were terribly concerned about it from a structural standpoint, you could pin the spacer or tig weld it in place. When people say that no one wants to make parts for these cars, itís easy to see why.
Kudos to you for trying to create a product that could help strengthen the weak point of most C4s out there. I say most because I already have a 12 bolt. When I had a 44, I broke pretty much every part in there on different occasions plus twisted halfshafts and a broken spindle.
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Old 01-14-2018, 03:04 PM   #26
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https://www.streetshopinc.com/transm...ferential.html

Here is a boltin C4 rearend complete unit. Its well beyond my limited budget.
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Old 01-14-2018, 10:06 PM   #27
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https://www.streetshopinc.com/transm...ferential.html

Here is a boltin C4 rearend complete unit. Its well beyond my limited budget.
..... At $4500 just for the center section it has already equaled the cost of a Bolt-in Strange 12 bolt live axle ... I would pass .....
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Old 01-14-2018, 11:21 PM   #28
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..... At $4500 just for the center section it has already equaled the cost of a Bolt-in Strange 12 bolt live axle ... I would pass .....
I donít understand that pricing at all. Itís nowhere near what Iíve been quoted on the hammerhead stuff. And you can fill it with whatever you want.
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Old 01-15-2018, 03:35 PM   #29
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I've been thru a bunch of this over the years. My biggest issue now is wearing out the spicer u-joints. I now can pretty much do one side in 30 min or less. I keep 6-8 in stock. I usually ad 2 whenever I make a summit order. So far cost wise to build a 44 that you already have...

Trutrac posi...$900
Ring and pinion..$3-400
Install bearing and seal kit $170
2 new bearing hubs to have broached to 31 spline $400
Summers brothers outer billet spindles: $1200 (including broaching)
Denny's steel halfshafts: $650

So your at roughly $3700. Then if you don't have a 44 to start with your looking at $800-$2000 more. Then if you have to pay someone your looking at another $5-1000 in labor.

I almost pulled the trigger twice on a solid axle, I gave a deposit on the one Jessie (spelling) was doing but then I saw one installed and quickly changed my mind and got a refund.

Then I was trying to contact Carrol's back and forth and he took forever to get back to me with prices and options, so I had no faith in giving him 8-9g for his 12 bolt kit.

I think if you could do one of these hammer head setups hub to hub, "bolt on" with out hacking up the car snd be able to add abs rings for around 4-5g tops they would sell a ton. 5g just for that center section is way high, then you'll need the outer spindles, halfshafts ect....

Last edited by RichS; 01-15-2018 at 03:38 PM.
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Old 01-15-2018, 10:26 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by RichS View Post
I've been thru a bunch of this over the years. My biggest issue now is wearing out the spicer u-joints. I now can pretty much do one side in 30 min or less. I keep 6-8 in stock. I usually ad 2 whenever I make a summit order. So far cost wise to build a 44 that you already have...

Trutrac posi...$900
Ring and pinion..$3-400
Install bearing and seal kit $170
2 new bearing hubs to have broached to 31 spline $400
Summers brothers outer billet spindles: $1200 (including broaching)
Denny's steel halfshafts: $650

So your at roughly $3700. Then if you don't have a 44 to start with your looking at $800-$2000 more. Then if you have to pay someone your looking at another $5-1000 in labor.

I almost pulled the trigger twice on a solid axle, I gave a deposit on the one Jessie (spelling) was doing but then I saw one installed and quickly changed my mind and got a refund.

Then I was trying to contact Carrol's back and forth and he took forever to get back to me with prices and options, so I had no faith in giving him 8-9g for his 12 bolt kit.

I think if you could do one of these hammer head setups hub to hub, "bolt on" with out hacking up the car snd be able to add abs rings for around 4-5g tops they would sell a ton. 5g just for that center section is way high, then you'll need the outer spindles, halfshafts ect....
The center section is not going to be $5k. I have no idea what those guys are doing (catering to checkbook hot rod crowd would be my guess)
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Old 01-16-2018, 05:58 AM   #31
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I have no idea what those guys are doing
Really? You believe there's a cheap 'bullet-proof' approach to this?

You've not offered up a dimensional print of the housing yet so even the 'bolt-in' feature is still questionable.
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Old 01-16-2018, 09:25 AM   #32
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The center section is not going to be $5k. I have no idea what those guys are doing (catering to checkbook hot rod crowd would be my guess)
..... So how about posting up some prices ? .....
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Old 01-16-2018, 10:52 AM   #33
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..... So how about posting up some prices ? .....
Case and inner axles under$2500. Obviously you can put whatever gears/ posi you want. Outer stuff is tbd.

As for the question about it being bolt in, it was designed for D44 cover and C beam, using a D36 c beam makes it less “bolt in”

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Old 01-16-2018, 11:50 AM   #34
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As for the question about it being bolt in, it was designed for D44 cover and C beam, using a D36 c beam makes it less “bolt in”
Just because the D44 cover bolts on doesn't necessarily cover 'bolt in'. The center to center dimension of the mounting bores at pinion is important, the positioning of those to rear edge of housing, hypoid height/differential, center of short-axle to mounting center***(front to rear) of the cover bushings to chassis as well as the center of short axle to cover mount bushing height. Compromising any of these results in very likely ineffective drive-line angles to include half-shaft angle. There's been no mention of direct bolt-on of the camber brackets either.

*** Center of short axle to housing rear edge would also work.

I believe it can be adapted but 'bolt-in' is maybe a stretch.

Hypoid height/differential I've never measured on the Super 44 but I understand it and I see no mention of it anywhere in the HammerHead information you've mentioned. Short axle retention is done how? I know what's hinted in your images but that doesn't answer questions.

Dimensions are a 'tell all' and also mentioning what gear sets and actual differentials.

The only install in a C4 that I've seen no finished snapshots of looked to leave things 'unknown'. Most of those snapshots went away with PhotoBucket lock down.

The other aspect of this is that they actually offer different alloys for the original design housing, lighter aluminum and then nodular. I don't believe 'bullet-proof' has been established for other than 'some' builds.

The DriveShaft Shop seems to want you to deal direct with EM/HammerHead and I thought that maybe unusual.

Like RichS mentioned regarding an 'alternative' - once he saw an offering by someone he wasted no time asking for his deposit back.

Last edited by WVZR-1; 01-16-2018 at 12:06 PM.
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Old 01-16-2018, 12:09 PM   #35
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I can say, with 100% certainty, that your statement about no one being interested is wrong. If the market is there, it can be done. And I think it can be done cost effectively.
I don't think the market will support it. There is already an upgrade that is very close. We were contacted to possibly finish it but you are talking about a setup that is close to 10k when finished. We elected not to proceed because the C4 market will not support that. There was an aftermarket C4 D44 that was as close to bullet proof as you could get. We were selling the housing for $1500 and then you had to build the diff or have us build. The final cost on the diff was about 3K. We sold a handful of those, so you are not going to find a company that will spend 100 grand on developing new tooling to make a improved IRS that will sell for less than 3k. Not enough C4's to warrant it.
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Old 01-16-2018, 07:34 PM   #36
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Just because the D44 cover bolts on doesn't necessarily cover 'bolt in'. The center to center dimension of the mounting bores at pinion is important, the positioning of those to rear edge of housing, hypoid height/differential, center of short-axle to mounting center***(front to rear) of the cover bushings to chassis as well as the center of short axle to cover mount bushing height. Compromising any of these results in very likely ineffective drive-line angles to include half-shaft angle. There's been no mention of direct bolt-on of the camber brackets either.

*** Center of short axle to housing rear edge would also work.

I believe it can be adapted but 'bolt-in' is maybe a stretch.

Hypoid height/differential I've never measured on the Super 44 but I understand it and I see no mention of it anywhere in the HammerHead information you've mentioned. Short axle retention is done how? I know what's hinted in your images but that doesn't answer questions.

Dimensions are a 'tell all' and also mentioning what gear sets and actual differentials.

The only install in a C4 that I've seen no finished snapshots of looked to leave things 'unknown'. Most of those snapshots went away with PhotoBucket lock down.

The other aspect of this is that they actually offer different alloys for the original design housing, lighter aluminum and then nodular. I don't believe 'bullet-proof' has been established for other than 'some' builds.

The DriveShaft Shop seems to want you to deal direct with EM/HammerHead and I thought that maybe unusual.

Like RichS mentioned regarding an 'alternative' - once he saw an offering by someone he wasted no time asking for his deposit back.
Iíll try to address your questions as best I can. I donít work for not have any affiliation with Hammerhead as ide from knowing the owner. I donít own the drawings, so therefore I canít provide dimensions. The inner axles are retained similar to a Big ford conventional axle or a ďc-clip eliminator. There is a pressed on bearing retained by a plate. Which to be 100% honest isnít even necessary in a C4 and once the half shafts are in, they canít come out unless something brakes. Our drag race C3 has run without inner axle retention for almost 40 years, both with the stock irs and a tomís Setup. As for gears/diffs available. Itís pretty much the full catalog of GM 12 bolt Parts. The hammerhead is NOT a D 44. The alloy question, Iíll look into. I think we have two different definitions of bolt in. Iíve been around racing and the automotive aftermarket for over 20 years, bolt in to me means you donít have to hack up the car, and you donít have to do any fabrication. I think youíre defining it as simple Parts swapping, which is fine but certainly not the standard in the aftermarket. The hammerhead is a multi use housing no doubt, my intent is to take it and work some of the C4 specific kinks out and complete the package with whatever else may need to be done (outer axle/hub, possibly aftermarket batwing and c-beam.

Iím not in this business anymore as my means of making a living. Iím just a racer/gear head with some fab skills looking to offer an alternative to like minded corvette owners and try and keep the cost down. If I can do that and cover my costs and buy a few extra parts for my projects, Iíll be happy.
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Old 01-16-2018, 07:38 PM   #37
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I don't think the market will support it. There is already an upgrade that is very close. We were contacted to possibly finish it but you are talking about a setup that is close to 10k when finished. We elected not to proceed because the C4 market will not support that. There was an aftermarket C4 D44 that was as close to bullet proof as you could get. We were selling the housing for $1500 and then you had to build the diff or have us build. The final cost on the diff was about 3K. We sold a handful of those, so you are not going to find a company that will spend 100 grand on developing new tooling to make a improved IRS that will sell for less than 3k. Not enough C4's to warrant it.
No disrespect at all, but I donít think your business model is the avenue for this. Itís certainly low volume by your standards, and is directed more toward hardcore racing. $10k is ludicrous for this. As for there not being enough C4ís, I think youíre very wrong. They are great racing platforms with a little work, roadrace/autocross or drag racing.
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Old 01-16-2018, 09:23 PM   #38
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I can say, with 100% certainty, that your statement about no one being interested is wrong. If the market is there, it can be done. And I think it can be done cost effectively.
OK as you yourself stated; no disrespect is intended here. I've been involved in the financial management of several small to midsize manufacturing companies over the past 40 years including 15 years at one that did it's own in-house aluminum casting. I'm wondering if you could give us a little more information on two things:

1) What do you feel would be the (Ball Park ROM) selling price of the finished product , "assembly" or perhaps "kit" is a better description that you are contemplating offering to the market place. (What items would be included?)

2) How many units (assemblies?) (kits?) would you envision having to sell each year for say a 5 year period in order for there to be an adequate Market to enable the price point that you are envisioning.


You've stated that you're not looking to earn your retirement by selling these just do a bit better than breakeven so we're not taking about a lot of markup beyond what the manufacturer is going to charge you so that you can act as the distributor. I'm just trying to get an idea of what you would consider a "reasonable price" and how many units per year you feel you can sell.... or rather need to sell to attain that low price.
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Old 01-16-2018, 09:32 PM   #39
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I vote someone makes a kit to bolt in a Ford 8.8 in place of a Dana 36.

Widely available. Cheap. Strong. There are 'batwings' available for the RX7s that bolt to the 8.8 cover, one for the corvette shouldn't be that difficult. The C-beam would be the only real task here. The 8.8 has mounting points up front, and its thinner than the D36/D44 in that area so a spacer to fill the gap between the differential and the C-beam shouldn't be out of the question.

$800 kit, source your own 8.8?
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Old 01-16-2018, 09:48 PM   #40
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Case and inner axles under$2500. Obviously you can put whatever gears/ posi you want. Outer stuff is tbd.

As for the question about it being bolt in, it was designed for D44 cover and C beam, using a D36 c beam makes it less ďbolt inĒ
..... Does the case and inner axles price include the gears/posi ? .....
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