View Poll Results: Would you be interested in a bulletproof IRS for the C4, assuming had a need?
Yes, i would be interested
25
67.57%
No, I'd rather just put a straight axle in
3
8.11%
Maybe, especially if it were available individually
5
13.51%
Only if it were cheaper than a straight axle
4
10.81%
Voters: 37. You may not vote on this poll
A truly Bolt in Bulletproof IRS, yes or no?
#21
Team Owner
Thread Starter
So maybe the solution is an aftermarket C beam?
#22
Burning Brakes
It would be way easier to just cast in provisions to reuse your factory C-beam. If you're starting a bolt-in center section from scratch, that would be the best option. Adding in the cost of an aftermarket C-beam when cost is going to be your biggest selling point is moving in the opposite direction.
#23
You're even more skeptical than you initially let on. Another attempt to have a conversation around the 'bolt in' features.
I'll be watchin' ........................................ ...........
I likely wouldn't need more than a set of dimensional prints for the Hammerhead to determine how best to adapt it. They would need to be very detailed. Snapshots prove nothing!!!!!!
Last edited by WVZR-1; 01-14-2018 at 01:08 PM.
#24
Team Owner
Thread Starter
It would be way easier to just cast in provisions to reuse your factory C-beam. If you're starting a bolt-in center section from scratch, that would be the best option. Adding in the cost of an aftermarket C-beam when cost is going to be your biggest selling point is moving in the opposite direction.
The following users liked this post:
yedister (07-06-2018)
#25
Race Director
The Hammerhead raw casting is made to fit multiple applications. The snout height was a compromise toward that. Making it fit multiple applications is the only way to make something like that cost effective. To make one specific to the C4 would easily double the cost of an already costly part. Using a spacer for the C beam is not unsound by any stretch of the imagination. If you were terribly concerned about it from a structural standpoint, you could pin the spacer or tig weld it in place. When people say that no one wants to make parts for these cars, it’s easy to see why.
The following users liked this post:
yedister (07-06-2018)
#26
Burning Brakes
https://www.streetshopinc.com/transm...ferential.html
Here is a boltin C4 rearend complete unit. Its well beyond my limited budget.
Here is a boltin C4 rearend complete unit. Its well beyond my limited budget.
#27
Le Mans Master
https://www.streetshopinc.com/transm...ferential.html
Here is a boltin C4 rearend complete unit. Its well beyond my limited budget.
Here is a boltin C4 rearend complete unit. Its well beyond my limited budget.
#28
Team Owner
Thread Starter
I don’t understand that pricing at all. It’s nowhere near what I’ve been quoted on the hammerhead stuff. And you can fill it with whatever you want.
#29
Le Mans Master
I've been thru a bunch of this over the years. My biggest issue now is wearing out the spicer u-joints. I now can pretty much do one side in 30 min or less. I keep 6-8 in stock. I usually ad 2 whenever I make a summit order. So far cost wise to build a 44 that you already have...
Trutrac posi...$900
Ring and pinion..$3-400
Install bearing and seal kit $170
2 new bearing hubs to have broached to 31 spline $400
Summers brothers outer billet spindles: $1200 (including broaching)
Denny's steel halfshafts: $650
So your at roughly $3700. Then if you don't have a 44 to start with your looking at $800-$2000 more. Then if you have to pay someone your looking at another $5-1000 in labor.
I almost pulled the trigger twice on a solid axle, I gave a deposit on the one Jessie (spelling) was doing but then I saw one installed and quickly changed my mind and got a refund.
Then I was trying to contact Carrol's back and forth and he took forever to get back to me with prices and options, so I had no faith in giving him 8-9g for his 12 bolt kit.
I think if you could do one of these hammer head setups hub to hub, "bolt on" with out hacking up the car snd be able to add abs rings for around 4-5g tops they would sell a ton. 5g just for that center section is way high, then you'll need the outer spindles, halfshafts ect....
Trutrac posi...$900
Ring and pinion..$3-400
Install bearing and seal kit $170
2 new bearing hubs to have broached to 31 spline $400
Summers brothers outer billet spindles: $1200 (including broaching)
Denny's steel halfshafts: $650
So your at roughly $3700. Then if you don't have a 44 to start with your looking at $800-$2000 more. Then if you have to pay someone your looking at another $5-1000 in labor.
I almost pulled the trigger twice on a solid axle, I gave a deposit on the one Jessie (spelling) was doing but then I saw one installed and quickly changed my mind and got a refund.
Then I was trying to contact Carrol's back and forth and he took forever to get back to me with prices and options, so I had no faith in giving him 8-9g for his 12 bolt kit.
I think if you could do one of these hammer head setups hub to hub, "bolt on" with out hacking up the car snd be able to add abs rings for around 4-5g tops they would sell a ton. 5g just for that center section is way high, then you'll need the outer spindles, halfshafts ect....
Last edited by RichS; 01-15-2018 at 02:38 PM.
#30
Team Owner
Thread Starter
I've been thru a bunch of this over the years. My biggest issue now is wearing out the spicer u-joints. I now can pretty much do one side in 30 min or less. I keep 6-8 in stock. I usually ad 2 whenever I make a summit order. So far cost wise to build a 44 that you already have...
Trutrac posi...$900
Ring and pinion..$3-400
Install bearing and seal kit $170
2 new bearing hubs to have broached to 31 spline $400
Summers brothers outer billet spindles: $1200 (including broaching)
Denny's steel halfshafts: $650
So your at roughly $3700. Then if you don't have a 44 to start with your looking at $800-$2000 more. Then if you have to pay someone your looking at another $5-1000 in labor.
I almost pulled the trigger twice on a solid axle, I gave a deposit on the one Jessie (spelling) was doing but then I saw one installed and quickly changed my mind and got a refund.
Then I was trying to contact Carrol's back and forth and he took forever to get back to me with prices and options, so I had no faith in giving him 8-9g for his 12 bolt kit.
I think if you could do one of these hammer head setups hub to hub, "bolt on" with out hacking up the car snd be able to add abs rings for around 4-5g tops they would sell a ton. 5g just for that center section is way high, then you'll need the outer spindles, halfshafts ect....
Trutrac posi...$900
Ring and pinion..$3-400
Install bearing and seal kit $170
2 new bearing hubs to have broached to 31 spline $400
Summers brothers outer billet spindles: $1200 (including broaching)
Denny's steel halfshafts: $650
So your at roughly $3700. Then if you don't have a 44 to start with your looking at $800-$2000 more. Then if you have to pay someone your looking at another $5-1000 in labor.
I almost pulled the trigger twice on a solid axle, I gave a deposit on the one Jessie (spelling) was doing but then I saw one installed and quickly changed my mind and got a refund.
Then I was trying to contact Carrol's back and forth and he took forever to get back to me with prices and options, so I had no faith in giving him 8-9g for his 12 bolt kit.
I think if you could do one of these hammer head setups hub to hub, "bolt on" with out hacking up the car snd be able to add abs rings for around 4-5g tops they would sell a ton. 5g just for that center section is way high, then you'll need the outer spindles, halfshafts ect....
#31
#32
Le Mans Master
#33
Team Owner
Thread Starter
Case and inner axles under$2500. Obviously you can put whatever gears/ posi you want. Outer stuff is tbd.
As for the question about it being bolt in, it was designed for D44 cover and C beam, using a D36 c beam makes it less “bolt in”
As for the question about it being bolt in, it was designed for D44 cover and C beam, using a D36 c beam makes it less “bolt in”
Last edited by vetteman9368; 01-16-2018 at 09:58 AM.
#34
*** Center of short axle to housing rear edge would also work.
I believe it can be adapted but 'bolt-in' is maybe a stretch.
Hypoid height/differential I've never measured on the Super 44 but I understand it and I see no mention of it anywhere in the HammerHead information you've mentioned. Short axle retention is done how? I know what's hinted in your images but that doesn't answer questions.
Dimensions are a 'tell all' and also mentioning what gear sets and actual differentials.
The only install in a C4 that I've seen no finished snapshots of looked to leave things 'unknown'. Most of those snapshots went away with PhotoBucket lock down.
The other aspect of this is that they actually offer different alloys for the original design housing, lighter aluminum and then nodular. I don't believe 'bullet-proof' has been established for other than 'some' builds.
The DriveShaft Shop seems to want you to deal direct with EM/HammerHead and I thought that maybe unusual.
Like RichS mentioned regarding an 'alternative' - once he saw an offering by someone he wasted no time asking for his deposit back.
Last edited by WVZR-1; 01-16-2018 at 11:06 AM.
#35
Platinum Supporting Vendor
I don't think the market will support it. There is already an upgrade that is very close. We were contacted to possibly finish it but you are talking about a setup that is close to 10k when finished. We elected not to proceed because the C4 market will not support that. There was an aftermarket C4 D44 that was as close to bullet proof as you could get. We were selling the housing for $1500 and then you had to build the diff or have us build. The final cost on the diff was about 3K. We sold a handful of those, so you are not going to find a company that will spend 100 grand on developing new tooling to make a improved IRS that will sell for less than 3k. Not enough C4's to warrant it.
#36
Team Owner
Thread Starter
Just because the D44 cover bolts on doesn't necessarily cover 'bolt in'. The center to center dimension of the mounting bores at pinion is important, the positioning of those to rear edge of housing, hypoid height/differential, center of short-axle to mounting center***(front to rear) of the cover bushings to chassis as well as the center of short axle to cover mount bushing height. Compromising any of these results in very likely ineffective drive-line angles to include half-shaft angle. There's been no mention of direct bolt-on of the camber brackets either.
*** Center of short axle to housing rear edge would also work.
I believe it can be adapted but 'bolt-in' is maybe a stretch.
Hypoid height/differential I've never measured on the Super 44 but I understand it and I see no mention of it anywhere in the HammerHead information you've mentioned. Short axle retention is done how? I know what's hinted in your images but that doesn't answer questions.
Dimensions are a 'tell all' and also mentioning what gear sets and actual differentials.
The only install in a C4 that I've seen no finished snapshots of looked to leave things 'unknown'. Most of those snapshots went away with PhotoBucket lock down.
The other aspect of this is that they actually offer different alloys for the original design housing, lighter aluminum and then nodular. I don't believe 'bullet-proof' has been established for other than 'some' builds.
The DriveShaft Shop seems to want you to deal direct with EM/HammerHead and I thought that maybe unusual.
Like RichS mentioned regarding an 'alternative' - once he saw an offering by someone he wasted no time asking for his deposit back.
*** Center of short axle to housing rear edge would also work.
I believe it can be adapted but 'bolt-in' is maybe a stretch.
Hypoid height/differential I've never measured on the Super 44 but I understand it and I see no mention of it anywhere in the HammerHead information you've mentioned. Short axle retention is done how? I know what's hinted in your images but that doesn't answer questions.
Dimensions are a 'tell all' and also mentioning what gear sets and actual differentials.
The only install in a C4 that I've seen no finished snapshots of looked to leave things 'unknown'. Most of those snapshots went away with PhotoBucket lock down.
The other aspect of this is that they actually offer different alloys for the original design housing, lighter aluminum and then nodular. I don't believe 'bullet-proof' has been established for other than 'some' builds.
The DriveShaft Shop seems to want you to deal direct with EM/HammerHead and I thought that maybe unusual.
Like RichS mentioned regarding an 'alternative' - once he saw an offering by someone he wasted no time asking for his deposit back.
I’m not in this business anymore as my means of making a living. I’m just a racer/gear head with some fab skills looking to offer an alternative to like minded corvette owners and try and keep the cost down. If I can do that and cover my costs and buy a few extra parts for my projects, I’ll be happy.
#37
Team Owner
Thread Starter
I don't think the market will support it. There is already an upgrade that is very close. We were contacted to possibly finish it but you are talking about a setup that is close to 10k when finished. We elected not to proceed because the C4 market will not support that. There was an aftermarket C4 D44 that was as close to bullet proof as you could get. We were selling the housing for $1500 and then you had to build the diff or have us build. The final cost on the diff was about 3K. We sold a handful of those, so you are not going to find a company that will spend 100 grand on developing new tooling to make a improved IRS that will sell for less than 3k. Not enough C4's to warrant it.
#38
Le Mans Master
Member Since: Oct 2004
Location: Everett WA
Posts: 7,690
Received 477 Likes
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353 Posts
C4 of Year Finalist (appearance mods) 2019
1) What do you feel would be the (Ball Park ROM) selling price of the finished product , "assembly" or perhaps "kit" is a better description that you are contemplating offering to the market place. (What items would be included?)
2) How many units (assemblies?) (kits?) would you envision having to sell each year for say a 5 year period in order for there to be an adequate Market to enable the price point that you are envisioning.
You've stated that you're not looking to earn your retirement by selling these just do a bit better than breakeven so we're not taking about a lot of markup beyond what the manufacturer is going to charge you so that you can act as the distributor. I'm just trying to get an idea of what you would consider a "reasonable price" and how many units per year you feel you can sell.... or rather need to sell to attain that low price.
#39
Burning Brakes
I vote someone makes a kit to bolt in a Ford 8.8 in place of a Dana 36.
Widely available. Cheap. Strong. There are 'batwings' available for the RX7s that bolt to the 8.8 cover, one for the corvette shouldn't be that difficult. The C-beam would be the only real task here. The 8.8 has mounting points up front, and its thinner than the D36/D44 in that area so a spacer to fill the gap between the differential and the C-beam shouldn't be out of the question.
$800 kit, source your own 8.8?
Widely available. Cheap. Strong. There are 'batwings' available for the RX7s that bolt to the 8.8 cover, one for the corvette shouldn't be that difficult. The C-beam would be the only real task here. The 8.8 has mounting points up front, and its thinner than the D36/D44 in that area so a spacer to fill the gap between the differential and the C-beam shouldn't be out of the question.
$800 kit, source your own 8.8?
#40
Le Mans Master
..... Does the case and inner axles price include the gears/posi ? .....