View Poll Results: Would you be interested in a bulletproof IRS for the C4, assuming had a need?
Yes, i would be interested
25
67.57%
No, I'd rather just put a straight axle in
3
8.11%
Maybe, especially if it were available individually
5
13.51%
Only if it were cheaper than a straight axle
4
10.81%
Voters: 37. You may not vote on this poll
A truly Bolt in Bulletproof IRS, yes or no?
01-16-2018, 11:25 PM
#41
Team Owner
Thread Starter
No, and it could be a bit cheaper than that. It’s hard to guess what people would want gear/diff wise. Some may want a 4.10 with a standard posi, others may want a wavetrac with a 4.56. Me, mine will have a lightweight spool and 4.88’s
01-17-2018, 10:10 AM
#43
I think we have two different definitions of bolt in. I’ve been around racing and the automotive aftermarket for over 20 years, bolt in to me means you don’t have to hack up the car, and you don’t have to do any fabrication. I think you’re defining it as simple Parts swapping, which is fine but certainly not the standard in the aftermarket. The hammerhead is a multi use housing no doubt, my intent is to take it and work some of the C4 specific kinks out and complete the package with whatever else may need to be done (outer axle/hub, possibly aftermarket batwing and c-beam.
Many posts ago I mentioned 'adaptable' and trust me I do 'get it'.
Now you've mentioned after-market cover and C-beam. You just keep talking around it.
The inner axles are retained similar to a Big ford conventional axle or a “c-clip eliminator. There is a pressed on bearing retained by a plate. Which to be 100% honest isn’t even necessary in a C4 and once the half shafts are in, they can’t come out unless something brakes.
I ain't trying to be argumentative about the thing but you need to supply substantially more information if you expect this to work.
01-17-2018, 12:35 PM
#44
Team Owner
Thread Starter
I came on here to discuss an idea and see what people thought. As I have more info and more parts in my hands I’ll post more information. You originally said that no one was interested in making one, and honestly from your responses I can see why. I will post another thread when I have something tangible as a whole to present and we’ll see if it’s feasibly. In the mean time, I’m not going to jump through your hoops just to satisfy whatever is going through your mind about this idea. Right now, it is an idea. It is a discussion of an avenue to go. I’m going to do it for my car, but my car isn’t the typical customer for this. My car will a drag car that’s street legal. One of my motivators for finding a much heavier duty version of the IRS was to fit a specific class for Hot Rod’s drag week.
My mention of an aftermarket batwing and C beam was strictly from a cost/availability stand point. It would not be a cast piece, it would be fabricated. But those parts are getting harder to come by and more expensive. Having an alternative there is not a bad idea. It had nothing at all to do with figment, no matter what you may suggest.
You’ve made it clear you have no interest in this idea, so I won’t waste any more of my time addressing you.
Joe Nova, the 8.8 is not a bad idea, however I doubt it would meet WVZR-1’s standard either. The 8.8 is a good piece however all of the existing applications of it and it’s adaptations are CV axle which presents some issues. It is definitely a lower cost, viable alternative, and not something I’ve ruled out.
My mention of an aftermarket batwing and C beam was strictly from a cost/availability stand point. It would not be a cast piece, it would be fabricated. But those parts are getting harder to come by and more expensive. Having an alternative there is not a bad idea. It had nothing at all to do with figment, no matter what you may suggest.
You’ve made it clear you have no interest in this idea, so I won’t waste any more of my time addressing you.
Joe Nova, the 8.8 is not a bad idea, however I doubt it would meet WVZR-1’s standard either. The 8.8 is a good piece however all of the existing applications of it and it’s adaptations are CV axle which presents some issues. It is definitely a lower cost, viable alternative, and not something I’ve ruled out.
Last edited by vetteman9368; 01-17-2018 at 12:38 PM.
01-17-2018, 01:02 PM
#45
Burning Brakes
The straight axle 8.8 in my Nova has a 31 spline TruTrac and Moser axles. Other than that its completely stock, and its taken close to 1000 HP for the last couple years.
I can get center sections all day for $100 at local junkyards. They're basically Ford's 12-bolt. The ring gear diameter is less than 2mm smaller and they use the exact same size pinion. Mounting provisions are already there to make a C-beam viable, and a batwing shouldn't be terribly difficult (see Miata example below). There are aftermarket pinion yokes, axles, and covers available. Ring gear options are cheap and VERY plentiful, as are carriers. All cheaper than the D44's comparable options. Making a kit to literally bolt one in shouldn't be a major task. You can get a limited slip, ring/pinion, rebuild kit, etc for $800 total.
I could probably swap in an IRS 8.8 ($100), fabricate a batwing ($125 with bushings) and C-beam adapter ($50), yoke ($100), Trutrac ($550), rebuild kit ($80), 3.55 ring/pinion ($125), for $1500 or less after dealing with driveshaft and axle length differences.
You want your cost effective options that appeals to everyone? There it is.
Want a tip? Stop focusing on offering an upgrade option for those that have a Dana 44. For way less than what they can purchase a new IRS for, they can upgrade that D44 to run 8s in the quarter. The D36 guys is where a majority of the market will be. A built 8.8 would be a very cost effective alternative to a D44 swap. Not to mention the D36 guys greatly outnumber the D44.
Go where the market is needed, not where you want it to be.
-900x600.jpg)
I can get center sections all day for $100 at local junkyards. They're basically Ford's 12-bolt. The ring gear diameter is less than 2mm smaller and they use the exact same size pinion. Mounting provisions are already there to make a C-beam viable, and a batwing shouldn't be terribly difficult (see Miata example below). There are aftermarket pinion yokes, axles, and covers available. Ring gear options are cheap and VERY plentiful, as are carriers. All cheaper than the D44's comparable options. Making a kit to literally bolt one in shouldn't be a major task. You can get a limited slip, ring/pinion, rebuild kit, etc for $800 total.
I could probably swap in an IRS 8.8 ($100), fabricate a batwing ($125 with bushings) and C-beam adapter ($50), yoke ($100), Trutrac ($550), rebuild kit ($80), 3.55 ring/pinion ($125), for $1500 or less after dealing with driveshaft and axle length differences.
You want your cost effective options that appeals to everyone? There it is.
Want a tip? Stop focusing on offering an upgrade option for those that have a Dana 44. For way less than what they can purchase a new IRS for, they can upgrade that D44 to run 8s in the quarter. The D36 guys is where a majority of the market will be. A built 8.8 would be a very cost effective alternative to a D44 swap. Not to mention the D36 guys greatly outnumber the D44.
Go where the market is needed, not where you want it to be.
Last edited by JoeNova; 01-17-2018 at 01:05 PM.
01-17-2018, 01:16 PM
#46
Safety Car
D36 guys is where a majority of the market will be.
If a "manufactured" batwing/cover could be produced, or a way to adapt Dana 36 batwings/covers then you really would have a winner !
All the folks that are searching for Dana 44 assemblies would then have a viable alternative.
All the folks that are searching for Dana 44 assemblies would then have a viable alternative.
Last edited by drcook; 01-17-2018 at 01:16 PM.
01-17-2018, 01:18 PM
#47
The simple Business answer is NO! I'll give 10 instant thoughts for your consideration.
1. An obsolete car
2. Inferior design
3. The value of the car is less than the parts you HOPE to sell
4. MOST people buy these things to drive as "corvettes" because they are cheap
5. A person generally dedicated enough to drag racing or powering a C4 knows enough to say the C4 is not the platform I will use (rare cases occur) and go with a car proven to be a good start
6. People mostly mod thees things with the basics, seem to rarely even modify them much anymore
7. Investment VS Return?
8. How are you giving people prices already if nothing has been set up or built?
9. Quality control?
10. Have you run a business before? Have you dealt with customer service? Have you dealt with being a small timer trying to get parts from larger manufacturers?
Not being a dick, but my possibly worthless thoughts on this are you have no where near thought this through enough to make a real plan of it.
My guess is that you might sell 20 units VERY optimistically (realistic 5-10) over a span of years / life time, now as the car gets older and c5's-c6's etc are available for easier building and racing that will be the ideal scenario. Too much of a gap between them and c4 to have people buy a c4 for performance.
know your audience and market. C4 owners are broke, cheap, or even looking for gas mileage.
This will hurt some, but only a fool will build a c4 for a race car these days. Anyone knowing about either racing or a c4 knows to keep looking.
1. An obsolete car
2. Inferior design
3. The value of the car is less than the parts you HOPE to sell
4. MOST people buy these things to drive as "corvettes" because they are cheap
5. A person generally dedicated enough to drag racing or powering a C4 knows enough to say the C4 is not the platform I will use (rare cases occur) and go with a car proven to be a good start
6. People mostly mod thees things with the basics, seem to rarely even modify them much anymore
7. Investment VS Return?
8. How are you giving people prices already if nothing has been set up or built?
9. Quality control?
10. Have you run a business before? Have you dealt with customer service? Have you dealt with being a small timer trying to get parts from larger manufacturers?
Not being a dick, but my possibly worthless thoughts on this are you have no where near thought this through enough to make a real plan of it.
My guess is that you might sell 20 units VERY optimistically (realistic 5-10) over a span of years / life time, now as the car gets older and c5's-c6's etc are available for easier building and racing that will be the ideal scenario. Too much of a gap between them and c4 to have people buy a c4 for performance.
know your audience and market. C4 owners are broke, cheap, or even looking for gas mileage.
This will hurt some, but only a fool will build a c4 for a race car these days. Anyone knowing about either racing or a c4 knows to keep looking.
Last edited by pologreen1; 01-17-2018 at 01:21 PM.
The following users liked this post:
yedister (07-06-2018)
01-17-2018, 02:08 PM
#48
Team Owner
Thread Starter
The simple Business answer is NO! I'll give 10 instant thoughts for your consideration.
1. An obsolete car
2. Inferior design
3. The value of the car is less than the parts you HOPE to sell
4. MOST people buy these things to drive as "corvettes" because they are cheap
5. A person generally dedicated enough to drag racing or powering a C4 knows enough to say the C4 is not the platform I will use (rare cases occur) and go with a car proven to be a good start
6. People mostly mod thees things with the basics, seem to rarely even modify them much anymore
7. Investment VS Return?
8. How are you giving people prices already if nothing has been set up or built?
9. Quality control?
10. Have you run a business before? Have you dealt with customer service? Have you dealt with being a small timer trying to get parts from larger manufacturers?
Not being a dick, but my possibly worthless thoughts on this are you have no where near thought this through enough to make a real plan of it.
My guess is that you might sell 20 units VERY optimistically (realistic 5-10) over a span of years / life time, now as the car gets older and c5's-c6's etc are available for easier building and racing that will be the ideal scenario. Too much of a gap between them and c4 to have people buy a c4 for performance.
know your audience and market. C4 owners are broke, cheap, or even looking for gas mileage.
This will hurt some, but only a fool will build a c4 for a race car these days. Anyone knowing about either racing or a c4 knows to keep looking.
1. An obsolete car
2. Inferior design
3. The value of the car is less than the parts you HOPE to sell
4. MOST people buy these things to drive as "corvettes" because they are cheap
5. A person generally dedicated enough to drag racing or powering a C4 knows enough to say the C4 is not the platform I will use (rare cases occur) and go with a car proven to be a good start
6. People mostly mod thees things with the basics, seem to rarely even modify them much anymore
7. Investment VS Return?
8. How are you giving people prices already if nothing has been set up or built?
9. Quality control?
10. Have you run a business before? Have you dealt with customer service? Have you dealt with being a small timer trying to get parts from larger manufacturers?
Not being a dick, but my possibly worthless thoughts on this are you have no where near thought this through enough to make a real plan of it.
My guess is that you might sell 20 units VERY optimistically (realistic 5-10) over a span of years / life time, now as the car gets older and c5's-c6's etc are available for easier building and racing that will be the ideal scenario. Too much of a gap between them and c4 to have people buy a c4 for performance.
know your audience and market. C4 owners are broke, cheap, or even looking for gas mileage.
This will hurt some, but only a fool will build a c4 for a race car these days. Anyone knowing about either racing or a c4 knows to keep looking.
But I’m over this ****. I’ll do my own thing with my car and if anyone asks how I did it I’ll give them your little top 10 list.
01-17-2018, 04:03 PM
#49
OP - that's an excellent decision. Do one and come back with your thoughts, what you'd maybe do differently and maybe what options you believe could be practical.
I don't actually have standards - you said bolt-in & bullet proof
****
I've looked into this just a bit and I think the 8.8 FoMoCo could easily be adapted to the C4 chassis. Considerable fabrication but once done very repetitive for production runs. The hypoid distance is 1.5 I believe which is a match for the D44-HD.
The girdle mount similar to the CTS-V I'd think a relatively easy fabrication and you just add the spring pad and the toe rod bracketry to that. The front @ the pinion of the 8.8 looks like it would accommodate a fabrication of a support for the C-beam mount. All very straight forward.
I found a 1310 pinion flange for the 8.8 so that doesn't seem to be an issue. Short-axles? I have absolutely no idea (YET) how to accomplish that and very likely there's already options out there. Again I'm somewhat strapped because I don't have dimensions.
Judging from just a visual appearance as to size you do all of this planning on the use of the D36 C-beam.
JoeNova - Your VetteKart is a TH400 & a D36. How do you have the front of the D36 supported now? I'd think with the TH400 the C-beam is gone but you've never mentioned the drive-line per se.
I don't actually have standards - you said bolt-in & bullet proof
****
I've looked into this just a bit and I think the 8.8 FoMoCo could easily be adapted to the C4 chassis. Considerable fabrication but once done very repetitive for production runs. The hypoid distance is 1.5 I believe which is a match for the D44-HD.
The girdle mount similar to the CTS-V I'd think a relatively easy fabrication and you just add the spring pad and the toe rod bracketry to that. The front @ the pinion of the 8.8 looks like it would accommodate a fabrication of a support for the C-beam mount. All very straight forward.
I found a 1310 pinion flange for the 8.8 so that doesn't seem to be an issue. Short-axles? I have absolutely no idea (YET) how to accomplish that and very likely there's already options out there. Again I'm somewhat strapped because I don't have dimensions.
Judging from just a visual appearance as to size you do all of this planning on the use of the D36 C-beam.
JoeNova - Your VetteKart is a TH400 & a D36. How do you have the front of the D36 supported now? I'd think with the TH400 the C-beam is gone but you've never mentioned the drive-line per se.
Last edited by WVZR-1; 01-17-2018 at 04:08 PM.
01-17-2018, 04:07 PM
#50
Team Owner
Thread Starter
OP - that's an excellent decision. Do one and come back with your thoughts, what you'd maybe do differently and maybe what options you believe could be practical.
I don't actually have standards - you said bolt-in & bullet proof
****
I've looked into this just a bit and I think the 8.8 FoMoCo could easily be adapted to the C4 chassis. Considerable fabrication but once done very repetitive for production runs. The hypoid distance is 1.5 I believe which is a match for the D44-HD.
The girdle mount similar to the CTS-V I'd think a relatively easy fabrication and you just add the spring pad and the toe rod bracketry to that. The front @ the pinion of the 8.8 looks like it would accommodate a fabrication of a support for the C-beam mount. All very straight forward.
I found a 1310 pinion flange for the 8.8 so that doesn't seem to be an issue. Short-axles? I have absolutely no idea (YET) how to accomplish that and very likely there's already options out there. Again I'm somewhat strapped because I don't have dimensions.
Judging from just a visual appearance as to size you do all of this planning on the use of the D36 C-beam.
Attachment 48245722
Attachment 48245723
I don't actually have standards - you said bolt-in & bullet proof
****
I've looked into this just a bit and I think the 8.8 FoMoCo could easily be adapted to the C4 chassis. Considerable fabrication but once done very repetitive for production runs. The hypoid distance is 1.5 I believe which is a match for the D44-HD.
The girdle mount similar to the CTS-V I'd think a relatively easy fabrication and you just add the spring pad and the toe rod bracketry to that. The front @ the pinion of the 8.8 looks like it would accommodate a fabrication of a support for the C-beam mount. All very straight forward.
I found a 1310 pinion flange for the 8.8 so that doesn't seem to be an issue. Short-axles? I have absolutely no idea (YET) how to accomplish that and very likely there's already options out there. Again I'm somewhat strapped because I don't have dimensions.
Judging from just a visual appearance as to size you do all of this planning on the use of the D36 C-beam.
Attachment 48245722
Attachment 48245723
01-17-2018, 04:24 PM
#51
You’re not wrong on any of that about the 8.8, there is a fabricated steel cover available, it’s for off road applications but that would be easiest to add the toe rod mounts and spring perch to. If I’m not mistaken it’s 3/16 steel which is more than strong enough to weld a batwing setup to. My whole goal has never been about making money on this, but giving these cars a new lease on life on the street and the race track.
If someone were interested in fabricating this I've 2 D36 housings and 2 D36 rear covers that if someone paid a couple $$$, packaging and shipping I'd likely donate (1 of each) just to see someone get after it.
I've 2 NOS D44 housings and 2 NOS D44 rear covers also. Short-axles, a differential, 3.54, 3.73 and 4.10 gear kits all Dana and new so parts I have.
01-17-2018, 05:49 PM
#52
Okay, I was not being a dick.
I have no idea your credentials, so that is where the list comes from. These days anybody can have pipe dreams with the internet.
I wish you the best of luck.
I guess when you know the most and are the best you don't need people to point things out...
I'll watch you go against the grain, go against basic business principals, and wait to be astonished at this amazing product to come forward.
ORRR
I'll watch a guy blow a bunch of money, maybe sucker people around him in to a poorly thought out decision, and some day wait for pics of 10 of thee stacked up in a warehouse for deep discount since there was no market.
That is typical of people who fly off the handle at comments, and half way think things through, and do very little research.
When is your next business seminar so I can get a new top 10...
BTW if it was me considering investing I can make a top 20 list on why not to.
Seriously I hope it works out. I was just giving my thoughts as I said my worthless thoughts... Kind of expecting these reactions.
01-17-2018, 05:55 PM
#53
Burning Brakes
Making something that bolts to the diff cover of an 8.8 would be pretty damn easy.
01-17-2018, 06:01 PM
#54
Team Owner
Thread Starter
Okay, I was not being a dick.
I have no idea your credentials, so that is where the list comes from. These days anybody can have pipe dreams with the internet.
I wish you the best of luck.
I guess when you know the most and are the best you don't need people to point things out...
I'll watch you go against the grain, go against basic business principals, and wait to be astonished at this amazing product to come forward.
ORRR
I'll watch a guy blow a bunch of money, maybe sucker people around him in to a poorly thought out decision, and some day wait for pics of 10 of thee stacked up in a warehouse for deep discount since there was no market.
That is typical of people who fly off the handle at comments, and half way think things through, and do very little research.
When is your next business seminar so I can get a new top 10...
BTW if it was me considering investing I can make a top 20 list on why not to.
Seriously I hope it works out. I was just giving my thoughts as I said my worthless thoughts... Kind of expecting these reactions.
I have no idea your credentials, so that is where the list comes from. These days anybody can have pipe dreams with the internet.
I wish you the best of luck.
I guess when you know the most and are the best you don't need people to point things out...
I'll watch you go against the grain, go against basic business principals, and wait to be astonished at this amazing product to come forward.
ORRR
I'll watch a guy blow a bunch of money, maybe sucker people around him in to a poorly thought out decision, and some day wait for pics of 10 of thee stacked up in a warehouse for deep discount since there was no market.
That is typical of people who fly off the handle at comments, and half way think things through, and do very little research.
When is your next business seminar so I can get a new top 10...
BTW if it was me considering investing I can make a top 20 list on why not to.
Seriously I hope it works out. I was just giving my thoughts as I said my worthless thoughts... Kind of expecting these reactions.
The following users liked this post:
yedister (07-06-2018)
01-17-2018, 06:03 PM
#55
Team Owner
Thread Starter
If someone were interested in fabricating this I've 2 D36 housings and 2 D36 rear covers that if someone paid a couple $$$, packaging and shipping I'd likely donate (1 of each) just to see someone get after it.
I've 2 NOS D44 housings and 2 NOS D44 rear covers also. Short-axles, a differential, 3.54, 3.73 and 4.10 gear kits all Dana and new so parts I have.
I've 2 NOS D44 housings and 2 NOS D44 rear covers also. Short-axles, a differential, 3.54, 3.73 and 4.10 gear kits all Dana and new so parts I have.
01-17-2018, 06:09 PM
#56
Burning Brakes
For starters most of the time someone starts off with “I’m not trying to be a dick”, well that’s exactly what they are trying to do. If you read through the thread, you’ll see that my intention was never profit motivated, more about offering an option to those who may want it. I never asked anyone for an investment, nor was I trying to sell anything. Any pricing I mentioned was based on existing products on the market. Where you went off of the tangent about owning a business or business seminars is absolutely off topic and as you stated “being a dick”. I’ve been in the automotive aftermarket business and would never do it again as a means to support my family. For play money, maybe. You set the tone, I responded in kind. And if you reread your original post, it’s fairly insulting to C4 owners as a whole.
There isn't a market for biggest and best here. You have to aim for cost/cost effectiveness. Thats why I mentioned the 8.8. A relatively affordable kit for those most in need (D36) that allows them to use an abundant, strong, and cheap 8.8 is going to be your only real option. The hammerhead thing is a pipe dream. You won't get very many people to buy into that.
01-17-2018, 06:20 PM
#57
Team Owner
Thread Starter
He has a point. You can buy a ragged out C4 for $3000 all day long. There have to be 5 of them within a 10 mile radius of me for that price. Finding someone who wants to put $3000 in an upgraded rear differential is a crap shoot. The market is going to be limited to either purists who think the C4 is the greatest vette ever or people who already have too much time/money invested in it. You're not going to find very many people wanting to spend that much money.
There isn't a market for biggest and best here. You have to aim for cost/cost effectiveness. Thats why I mentioned the 8.8. A relatively affordable kit for those most in need (D36) that allows them to use an abundant, strong, and cheap 8.8 is going to be your only real option. The hammerhead thing is a pipe dream. You won't get very many people to buy into that.
There isn't a market for biggest and best here. You have to aim for cost/cost effectiveness. Thats why I mentioned the 8.8. A relatively affordable kit for those most in need (D36) that allows them to use an abundant, strong, and cheap 8.8 is going to be your only real option. The hammerhead thing is a pipe dream. You won't get very many people to buy into that.
01-17-2018, 08:50 PM
#59
Team Owner
Thread Starter
That’s not something I’ve even looked into, but my first guess is that biggest issue is probably tunnel clearance. It’s not personally something that I’d ever want, but I could see there being a demand for it.
01-18-2018, 09:16 AM
#60
Burning Brakes
There's more tunnel clearance in the C4 than most think. There was GREATLY more room in there than on ANY of the other cars I've built in the last few years.
I imagine sticking even a 4L80e in there wouldn't be much of a challenge physically.
I imagine sticking even a 4L80e in there wouldn't be much of a challenge physically.