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Of course there are problems other cars don't suffer from. All the problems associated with all wheel drive systems. Don't pretend those components don't fail, you already admitted they wear out. There is nothing ignorant about stating the obvious.
Sure, normal maintenance is obviously needed over the years but nothing one cannot handle with normal income and toolkit. And if you are unfortunate and/or run into road hazard then yes, there can be more cost as there is more parts. But, the fact the parts do exist doesn't automatically mean you have bigger costs, you usually indeed need to be unfortunate or stupid to break drive related parts. Not something we often see in IRL. With high hp cars and drivers who like to burn rubber on high friction surfaces the chance of breakage is high but in winter use its something you don't see often.
I maintain that the awd cars do not have "lots of problems that other cars do not suffer from", only chance for that if you are very unlucky or abuse your car. In any case I would not avoid awd cars because they might some day have a extra cv joint to change, the benefits in winter conditions heavily outweight possible extra maintenance one might (or might not) encounter over the years. You don't have to be struggling with 2wd car to enjoy the benefits.
Example about awd extra maintenance costs I've experienced over couple of decades: Audi A6 Quattro with 180K miles: 1 cv joint, cost about $50 + couple of hours of work for a first timer. This is the total drive related repair costs of a car from new (its also the only repair I've had to do on any of the awd cars my family has owned over 2 decades). Of course few rear end oil changes more than a 2wd would have every 60K or so. And I like to go sideways on slippery surfaces
Same rules apply to awd cars that do to others: don't buy an abused car in bad shape and check the maintenance records and repair bills. Don't be afraid of the awd
Get yourself a 90's era Mercedes-Benz.S class. AWD that will go through anything. These cars are tanks in any type of weather, strong V8 that will last forever, extreme comfort, fun to drive and excellent build quality
The video you posted about Audis system shows a set of hydraulic actuated clutch plates, presumably by a pressure control solenoid controlled by the pcm, along with a couple dozen other parts.
I posted the video to show Audis terminology on AWD & 4WD. The tech they show is the new RS5's Quattro system and has little to do with the Quattros of the 90's we are talking about in this thread. Sorry if that confused you, wasn't my intention.
You know what doesn't have all that ? A two wheel drive vehicle.
Well I know Torsen Quattros don't have all that. The Audis I recommended are Torsen Quattros, all mechanical rear ends, including the center diff. No clutch plates, hydraulics etc. Very realiable tech.
The TT mentioned at some point however is Haldex Quattro. Much more problem prone system and more like rear wheel assistance to front wheel drive car. Not a fan. But, I'll admit its better than 2wd alone in slippery conditions.
I maintain that the awd cars do not have "lots of problems that other cars do not suffer from", only chance for that if you are very unlucky or abuse your car.
So its sounds like you would agree that if you are unlucky, or abuse the car, then awd has problems other cars do not.
You realize I am not denying that awd is better under certain driving conditions don't you ? You also realize you made my point for me by acknowledging the tire diameter issues, the additional parts, and your personal experience having to replace the transfer case chain on your home brew s10. So exactly how am I the one who doesn't "get it" ? I'm sure you have an actual explanation, I cant wait to hear it.
So you're right. AWD has additional expense. So f-ing what? You've obviously never had an AWD vehicle, much less 9 of them like myself. I've put 350,000 collective miles on them I also own 2 4X4 pick-ups, one of them an F250 Super Duty Diesel. It's better in snow than any of my AWDs, but only because it weighs 8,000 lbs. Its impractical to drive daily, and doesn't have the enhanced braking, acceleration, and wet-weather advantages of the AWDs.
Having experienced the benefits of AWD for over 20 years, J will probably always own at least one AWD indefinitely.You should try one too. Your arguments look foolish to those of us that know what we're talking about.
Clam down.
How about at least attempting to find a narrative that we can agree on.
Why don't you try saying something like "awd has problems, but those problems are outweighed by the benefits", or you can just ignore me, that's fine too.
If you want something cheap I’d find an 05-09 AWD Toyota Matrix or Pontiac Vibe (both available in manual or auto) and call it a day. They will be reliable, economical, run forever, and get you through most bad conditions. Get one with the 1ZZ engine although not as powerful as the others but the most reliable.
I think you sank yourself with the word "lots". I know that you "get it". But when I read that sentence, I disagreed with it immediately (although I kept my mouth shut). Of course, "lots" is subjective and could be argued indefinitely. But trying to keep it simple, if you said "AWD has more problems", that is not debatable. It's got more parts...it's going to have more problems eventually. "Lots" more problems? No. The Stealth that we owned never had any problems related to the AWD system or affected systems. Other AWD cars I've had have also had zero problems related to their AWD systems either. So "lots more"? No.
On the other hand, supporting PDT's point is my brother and his Audi Allroad. It developed a torn CV boot in the LF outer CV. At the Audi dealer the repair ballooned into a "over $3000 dollars" to repair. If it wasn't AWD that wouldn't have been a repair...however, surely something else would have been broken on that car.
The fuel economy penalty is real...but if you've made the decision to have AWD or 4wd, I'd think that you'd have already accepted that trade off and it's a "non-issue". Our 400hp CTS-V averages ~24 mpg. The Stealth averaged ~24mpg. Was the trade off worth it? When I was plowing snow with the front bumper it sure was. Also, any 2nd gear AW drift blast made it totally worth it!
I don't feel to bad about it. The facts arnt really in dispute. I would have been fine had someone suggested the benefits outweigh the hassle, but I couldn't even get agreement on that. Instead I'm getting blocked lol.
So you're right. AWD has additional expense. So f-ing what? You've obviously never had an AWD vehicle, much less 9 of them like myself. I've put 350,000 collective miles on them I also own 2 4X4 pick-ups, one of them an F250 Super Duty Diesel. It's better in snow than any of my AWDs, but only because it weighs 8,000 lbs. Its impractical to drive daily, and doesn't have the enhanced braking, acceleration, and wet-weather advantages of the AWDs.
Having experienced the benefits of AWD for over 20 years, J will probably always own at least one AWD indefinitely.You should try one too. Your arguments look foolish to those of us that know what we're talking about.
that is the type of driving ive been doing this winter except i dont win any trophies lol!
Originally Posted by ihatebarkingdogs
How about a domestic car? I've owned the 1993 Typhoon above since 1997.
92-93 GMC Typhoon. Meets all requirements, including budget , early 90's, and are AWD. Not to mention stupid-azz turbocharged fun. 0-60 in 4.2, even in the rain. 4.3 V6 (based on the SBC), 700R4 automatic, Borg Warner AWD viscious clutch T-case as used in Bravada and Astro van of the era. It's a 1st Gen S-10, parts are still available, and reasonably priced.
Tys have seating for 4 and the seatbacks will recline. The 93 has more comfortable seats than the 92, and is more desirable. The Typhoon is a fabulous GT car, I've driven my Ty's on several cross-country and return trips. I know of several Ty's on blizzacks driven by Canadian owners as DD's over the years.
I've been involved with SyTy for over 20 years and owned 3 Sys and 3 Tys. I was a guru on SyTy.net before that site self-destructed last year. They are fairly reliable if left STOCK, including the engine calibration. Chip them and they will run 12's, but are prone to detonation and bearings become problematic. Transmissions are hard on the sprag and sun shell because the AWD doesn't allow the tires to slip during the 1-2 shift. But these parts are cheap compared to foreign makes such as Audi, Mitsu, and Suburu.
There are still serviceable rust-free Typhoons available in the 8-12K range. If you actually research and look at ads for Typhoons be cognizant of the condition of and any missing cladding, including the bumpers. (The "body kit" around the lower body.) Replacement pieces are difficult to find and extremely pricey. There is a source in California for fiberglass cladding that is reasonably priced as an alternative.
You'd be right at home with a Ty in your garage. Very similar "challenge" to a C4. Kind of finicky, old, some tasks kind of difficult, but satisfying to drive and maintain.
Dogs im going to check this out! You also own the other suv that im looking at, the Cayenne. Do you do you own tinkering on it?
Originally Posted by dmaxx3500
lambo,porsche,
or audi quattro
would love a countach though id think it would only come out in nocer weather. there are really no awd porsches that i could acquire low enough to put through winter rock chips and salt and not feel bad about it. the audi TT WAS THE ONE I WAS THINKING ABOUT. Dogs, where i live they were SUPER pooular because of the awd feature but they have fallen off the popularity list up here and u hardly see them anymore. i can pick one up for 5k cad which leaves me with budget for newer rims and a too tier set of winters. even studded. I KNOW THESE were called "hairdressers cars" but.....honest opinion...what do u think about these "mini me porsches" when they have had a few mods such as this:....i cant a pic uploadef from my iphonr. ill brb and upload it.
Last edited by VikingTrad3r; 01-13-2018 at 11:45 AM.
I think TT's are weinermobiles. I hate 'em. 2.0T engine, entire engine hanging out in front of the front axle, Any maintenance/repair the front of the car comes off. Dumb. Plus they're just....weenie, IMO. They probably would meet your criteria though, I hate to admit. It would probably be "fun and sporty" to drive in the snow. I don't like 'em and I don't view them a "mini Porsches". Sorry.
For 5k though...get one and see for yourself. If you don't like it, sell the thing.
I don't feel to bad about it. The facts arnt really in dispute. I would have been fine had someone suggested the benefits outweigh the hassle, but I couldn't even get agreement on that. Instead I'm getting blocked lol.
would love a countach though id think it would only come out in nocer weather. there are really no awd porsches that i could acquire low enough to put through winter rock chips and salt and not feel bad about it. the audi TT WAS THE ONE I WAS THINKING ABOUT. Dogs, where i live they were SUPER pooular because of the awd feature but they have fallen off the popularity list up here and u hardly see them anymore. i can pick one up for 5k cad which leaves me with budget for newer rims and a too tier set of winters. even studded. I KNOW THESE were called "hairdressers cars" but.....honest opinion...what do u think about these "mini me porsches" when they have had a few mods such as this:....i cant a pic uploadef from my iphonr. ill brb and upload it.
Early 90's 911 C4 would be great but here they have been getting more and more expensive every year. Years ago one could have bought one for half of what they sell now. I kick myself every now and then for the fact how cheap I sold my 911 factory turbolook ex race car years ago. It could have been a real investment in retrospect. Well sometimes you lose and sometimes you win.
Early Cayennes are dirt cheap here, they are pretty much selling for the same sum as mediocre C4's are. Of course maintenance cost can be lot higher, not because its AWD but because its a Porsche.
I myself are considering A8/S8, S4 and Cayenne (turbo) for my next winter user. Not new ones but maybe 2000-2010 models as I prefer to let somebody else take the hit on early depreciation (which can be at my location $1000/month on first few years). I have several cars and mostly work on them myself so I am not afraid about expensive repairs. I can always drive something else while I hunt for the parts and make the repairs. If you need to get your luxury car repaired by tomorrow to get to work then it can be super expensive and maybe something cheaper is smarter choise.
01-12-2018, 07:59 PM
Well sometimes you lose and sometimes you win.
Of course maintenance cost can be lot higher, not because its AWD but because its a Porsche.