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Starter heat soak with headers

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Old 06-11-2018, 08:59 PM
  #21  
84 4+3
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Originally Posted by WVZR-1 View Post
Did you mean 168 OR do you maybe have a '67 Pontiac?
No it's a pontiac, I'd have fixed the chevy by now lol. It just isn't well laid out at all imo. (I work on a lot of peoples crap... this one is just very wild...) If it were mine I wouldn't be so worried but like I don't need my aunt getting stuck somewhere when I'm at work or at school you know? My cousins are good but they won't push a car a quarter mile down the road if they had to... I treat this thing like it is my own.
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Old 06-12-2018, 10:41 PM
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Only mechanical mods to the car are the long tube headers, no cats, true dual 3" exhaust into flowmasters.

I have both a TPIS Miniram and a Stealth Ram (have to decide which one I am going with) and a Comp CC503 cam to install when I get around to it.

I am eyeing the Holley HP ecu to run everything, but that is a topic for another thread.

Come to think of it the Purple "S" terminal wire on the starter was looking a bit crusty last time I was under the car. May have to try fixing this wire first.

I have timing set to 6* with the EST wire disconnected.

When the heat soak occurs, if I press in the clutch to let the car roll (with ZF6 in first gear) while simultaneously turning the key and popping the clutch, the starter will engage and fire the motor. Starter armature hanging up or not enough juice to the starter?
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Old 06-12-2018, 11:35 PM
  #23  
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Originally Posted by 19corvette91 View Post
Only mechanical mods to the car are the long tube headers, no cats, true dual 3" exhaust into flowmasters.

I have both a TPIS Miniram and a Stealth Ram (have to decide which one I am going with) and a Comp CC503 cam to install when I get around to it.

I am eyeing the Holley HP ecu to run everything, but that is a topic for another thread.

Come to think of it the Purple "S" terminal wire on the starter was looking a bit crusty last time I was under the car. May have to try fixing this wire first.

I have timing set to 6* with the EST wire disconnected.

When the heat soak occurs, if I press in the clutch to let the car roll (with ZF6 in first gear) while simultaneously turning the key and popping the clutch, the starter will engage and fire the motor. Starter armature hanging up or not enough juice to the starter?
Could be either (or both). The mechanical transients from popping the clutch are probably just enough to shake the solenoid loose. I used to keep a long steel bar in my 442 to hit the starter when it did this.

The other thing that can lead to this is a worn brush. The solenoid current path goes through the armature, so a bad brush will limit what the solenoid can pull.

Steve
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Old 06-12-2018, 11:37 PM
  #24  
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Would it be possible to do a draw test and see if the starter is pulling too much power? I suppose the next thing to do is have a rebuild done on the starter and see how bad it can be inside.
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Old 06-13-2018, 07:11 AM
  #25  
Gibbles
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I was warned of this problem when i installed my long tubes.
so far i have not had the issue, my headers are ceramic coated inside and out, maybe its helping...

​​​​​​​
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Old 06-13-2018, 08:06 AM
  #26  
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The ceramic coat removes a lot of heat.
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Old 06-13-2018, 10:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Gibbles View Post
I was warned of this problem when i installed my long tubes.
so far i have not had the issue, my headers are ceramic coated inside and out, maybe its helping...

​​​​​​​
The coating does help a good bit.
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Old 06-13-2018, 12:05 PM
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The simple and logical solution which has been recommended by many is to replace the starter. I would think that would be the first move. I have had many sets of headers on my 84 and have had no problems over the years running a MSD DynaForce starter.
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Old 06-13-2018, 01:24 PM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by 19corvette91 View Post
I have timing set to 6* with the EST wire disconnected.
Base timing is dictated by the programming if the chip.

Originally Posted by 19corvette91 View Post
if I press in the clutch to let the car roll while simultaneously turning the key and popping the clutch, the starter will engage and fire the motor. Starter armature hanging up or not enough juice to the starter?
I'd check proper alignment of the flywheel and starter gear teeth for no binding. Old school, and some aftermarket starters can (rarely) require shim(s).
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Old 06-13-2018, 09:00 PM
  #30  
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I have a 1968 C3 with a 427 and it runs hot, very HOT. The starter issues all went away literally when I bought a mini gear drive starter. I bought the starter at Summit and it works great! I had spent money on covers, wraps and powerful standard starters before the Mini- Gear Drive.

Another "challenge" I was having was cranking the engine when it was "hot" as it has 12.25-1 compression. Get it started made that poor starter work, even with the gear drive. The beautiful headers certainly made the problem worse. I have the coated ones from Heddman Headers and I then covered all my hoses and wires with DEI products. I love the DEI heat protection products as they make the protection look "Good" while doing their job.

I went to MSD and they sold me a new box that allowed me to retard the ignition up to 20* and bounce back to normal after you hit 800 rpm. When I retarded the timing by 20* and then cranked the car would start right up and sound like a Chrysler while cranking.

These tricks allow me to run a very "nasty" 427 without any issues on the streets. I am using the same tricks that were used by fighter aircraft in WW2. I inject a methanol/water mixture into my intake when the engine is under load, you feel it as it injects water-methanol mixture in just below the carburetor. This mixture is better than airplane fuel at a fraction of the price. The fuel entering the carburetor will have the equivalent of 115 octane and this engine really purrs with that stuff.

Have a great day out there!
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Old 06-14-2018, 09:13 AM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by ctmccloskey View Post
I have a 1968 C3 with a 427 and it runs hot, very HOT. The starter issues all went away literally when I bought a mini gear drive starter. I bought the starter at Summit and it works great! I had spent money on covers, wraps and powerful standard starters before the Mini- Gear Drive.

Another "challenge" I was having was cranking the engine when it was "hot" as it has 12.25-1 compression. Get it started made that poor starter work, even with the gear drive. The beautiful headers certainly made the problem worse. I have the coated ones from Heddman Headers and I then covered all my hoses and wires with DEI products. I love the DEI heat protection products as they make the protection look "Good" while doing their job.

I went to MSD and they sold me a new box that allowed me to retard the ignition up to 20* and bounce back to normal after you hit 800 rpm. When I retarded the timing by 20* and then cranked the car would start right up and sound like a Chrysler while cranking.

These tricks allow me to run a very "nasty" 427 without any issues on the streets. I am using the same tricks that were used by fighter aircraft in WW2. I inject a methanol/water mixture into my intake when the engine is under load, you feel it as it injects water-methanol mixture in just below the carburetor. This mixture is better than airplane fuel at a fraction of the price. The fuel entering the carburetor will have the equivalent of 115 octane and this engine really purrs with that stuff.

Have a great day out there!
Thank you for supporting DEI and our products! Glad to hear it!

Thanks, Tim
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