C4 Tech/Performance L98 Corvette and LT1 Corvette Technical Info, Internal Engine, External Engine

Looking to do some mods to my c4

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Old 06-20-2018, 02:53 AM
  #21  
TheBlaster9001
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Originally Posted by 383vett
Not sure where you came up with the arbitrary 400 ci. When I was running a 383, I ran low 11's with a 58mm throttle body and a SuperRam. I couldn't run this number using a 48mm throttle body. By the way, Lingenfelter's SuperRam assembley which I ran was suited for a 350 or a 383 and came with an Accel 58mm throttle body.
I'll preface by saying I assumed 650-700 CFM from the stock TB, since that's what I've read from several sources.

By my math, the stock TB at 400 cubes, 6k rpm, and 90% VE is close to maxed out (~625 CFM). Anything much past there needs a bigger TB, or higher VE. At 383 cubes, 6k rpm, and 90% VE, it's about 600 CFM - less than the stock TB maxes at. Im sure my math isn't completely indicative of the system, since different intake/plenum/runners setups can increase air velocity at certain RPMs and come closer to 100% VE, but in theory, it should hold some merit. You'd need an excellent, ported induction setup for the TB to become the bottleneck.

I have the Superram as well, but paired to a stock TB. If I had math to justify a bigger TB, I'd go for it. But the car can not move that much air, so unless I go forced induction or rebuild it for revs above 6k, I can't justify it besides "it looks cool", "it's something to spend money on", or "but it's bigger!".

Edit: I should also mention my math assumes that intake occurs during 50% of the revolution count. In reality (depending on cam) it is less than that - so my numbers may end up being a little high. I figure it is best to factor this as a drop in VE. I had read between 35 to 45% of the intake swing would flow air, but I went with 50% to give benefit to the bigger TB arguement.

Last edited by TheBlaster9001; 06-20-2018 at 03:00 AM.
Old 06-20-2018, 06:44 AM
  #22  
Hjhvette
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Originally Posted by AgentEran
This means it is especially good to get a rear end ratio change.. zf or Doug Nash?
ok. Thanks
Old 06-20-2018, 06:52 AM
  #23  
Hjhvette
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Originally Posted by 65Z01
Is it an early or late '86. I ask because the late has the Al heads for a little more CHP.

I suggest these "mods":
-headers, true duals into modified cat-back
-160deg T-stat
-cut air filter lid with K&N filter
-cut-back stock style spark plugs with std gap
-AFPR, bump fuel pressure as needed to match other mods with higher air flow available.
-bump base timing from 6dbdc to 8dbdc.
-increase TPS to ~0.75Vdc at normal idle, it you get a code back off slowly till no code.
Of course exhaust will be most expensive. If you don't want to spring for FL headers, go with a 2 1/2" SS front Y with no pre-cats and a hi-flow main cat.

With similar mods I was able to bump my prior '88's power from stock 240chp to 300chp.

Have fun and enjoy your Vette.
thanks. All good points. Appreciate it. It is an early 86.
Old 06-20-2018, 08:43 AM
  #24  
vader86
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Originally Posted by AgentEran
Like blaster said, you will prob spend alot of money to make your car slower if mounting a large TB on a stock motor. Heads / Cam / Intake are way better areas to improve.

Rear gear ratio change is another good mod.
Rear gear change would be a terrible choice for an L98, it is an LT1 mod.

If he has stick, he has 3.07, which is perfect for the engine.
Old 06-20-2018, 10:01 AM
  #25  
bjankuski
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Originally Posted by TheBlaster9001
Has to do with laminar flow. I can only speak from a theory standpoint, although Aklim has verified in practice that a stock TB on a stock engine runs faster than a bigger one.

From an assumption that airflow is always laminar, then yes, a bigger TB wouldn't hurt. But if you assume that there is not a laminar flow, you will find that a bigger TB will actually end up creating more turbulence than a small TB, until around 400 cubes (or potentially lower cubes with very high volumetric efficiency).

Because a larger TB lets more air through quicker (10% throttle on a bigger TB is more CFM than 10% on a stock TB), you will reach the point that your engine cannot suck any more air quicker than the stock TB. That is, the total CFM that your engine can suck down is lower than the max CFM the TB can flow. Because of this, there is a point on each TB where no more air is passing it even if you open it further. Assuming a laminar flow, and 100% VE, my 383 still won't ever suck more air than the stock TB wide open will allow through, unless it somehow revs above 6k (which it can't, and won't).

So while the TB therefore is not a bottleneck, a bigger TB can introduce more turbulence because it reaches the point where no more air can get sucked down quicker than the stock TB. The difference the turbulence makes will be rather little, maybe a 5% decrease in VE. But the larger opening that a larger TB creates at full throttle ends up decreasing air velocity, and introduces eddy currents because the engine cannot suck enough air through such a large opening to keep velocity high enough to keep a near-laminar flow.
This post has many issues, I don't want to get too far off the OP question so I will just say I agree to disagree. I will also say i have never seen a larger throttle body on a TPI style engine make less power on the dyno. TB are not carbs and most of the items you list above are incorrect.
Old 06-20-2018, 10:14 AM
  #26  
RetroGuy
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Default Obviously the best solution...

...And as you can see, nobody has really disagreed (in previous responses) with my simple high performance mod to the rear end. That means this is THE best mod for your Vette!
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Last edited by RetroGuy; 06-20-2018 at 10:15 AM.
Old 06-20-2018, 10:22 AM
  #27  
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Default But seriously...

But... If you must spend money and want a deeper engine growl with a small increase in HP, you should install a quality cold air intake (or at least open-up the stock air filter housing (by cutting open the ventilated metal lid) and installing a cat-back exhaust (with or without a resonator) with some good performance mufflers. At the very least, your Vette will sound meaner and possibly gain a little HP.
Video showing one of the ways to open-up a stock air filter box:

Here's some CAIs that might work from Ecklers:
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Last edited by RetroGuy; 06-20-2018 at 10:36 AM.
Old 06-20-2018, 10:53 AM
  #28  
TheBlaster9001
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Originally Posted by bjankuski
This post has many issues, I don't want to get too far off the OP question so I will just say I agree to disagree. I will also say i have never seen a larger throttle body on a TPI style engine make less power on the dyno. TB are not carbs and most of the items you list above are incorrect.
I was trying to deal in theoretic as much as possible in that post - governed around Bernoulli's equation: bigger diameter = decreased air velocity, and a decrease in air pressure. Air will behave more laminar when at high velocities (unless you get close to or above the speed of sound). A 58mm TB won't decrease air velocity by much, and if tuned right, would make no measurable difference in power vs a 48mm TB. But from a conceptual standpoint, high air velocity leads to high VE, which is good for performance. The closer matched air velocity is from the intake to the cylinders, the higher VE will be.

So Tl;Dr: There's no way a huge TB helps a stock engine, and in theory it could hamper air velocity some. My cousin did his thesis paper for Mechanical Engineering about this same debate, only on Fox Body Mustangs. Different application, same physics.

But sure, we can agree to disagree. It doesn't really matter what either of us think with regards to the other. And for OP's purpose, the important takeaway is a bigger TB is not a good choice.
Old 06-20-2018, 12:06 PM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by TheBlaster9001
I was trying to deal in theoretic as much as possible in that post - governed around Bernoulli's equation: bigger diameter = decreased air velocity, and a decrease in air pressure. Air will behave more laminar when at high velocities (unless you get close to or above the speed of sound). A 58mm TB won't decrease air velocity by much, and if tuned right, would make no measurable difference in power vs a 48mm TB. But from a conceptual standpoint, high air velocity leads to high VE, which is good for performance. The closer matched air velocity is from the intake to the cylinders, the higher VE will be.

So Tl;Dr: There's no way a huge TB helps a stock engine, and in theory it could hamper air velocity some. My cousin did his thesis paper for Mechanical Engineering about this same debate, only on Fox Body Mustangs. Different application, same physics.

But sure, we can agree to disagree. It doesn't really matter what either of us think with regards to the other. And for OP's purpose, the important takeaway is a bigger TB is not a good choice.
-See the attached sheet, air velocity decreases laminar flow not increases it.
-Air is pushed through a throttle body not sucked through it
-Throttle body CFM are determined by a how much air is flowing through the throttle body at a pressure differentail of 1.5" HG, which means at the rated flow the pressure in the plenium of the engine is 1.5 inches lower then atmosphere. So if the atmospher is 29.92 the pressure in the plenium at rated flow is 28.42 or 5% lower then atmosphere which means you are lossing at least 5% of you engine power to that restriction. Does not sound ideal to me! That formula you use to determine throttle body size was based on carb data where you need velocity through the venturi to cause a pressure differential that will cause fuel to flow through the main jets. The fuel is pushed out of the main jet not sucked. This does not apply to a dry flow throttle body system on a TPI car.
-Air flow speed through the throttle body is not important what is important is air flow through the runners on the engine. The highest pressure in the plenium will give the highest flow through the runners or highest VE for the given situation.
-I agree that a larger throttle body is not needed for this application but I want to kill that old wise tail that keeps getting passed around that larger throttle bodies will decrease power. They will not.
-Just think about this, would GM put 90mm and larger throttle bodies on there new cars if they killed power? The air flow of one 90mm throttle body is 17% more then twin 58mm throttle bodies. These are dry flow systems and larger does not hurt.

Last edited by bjankuski; 06-20-2018 at 12:07 PM.
Old 06-20-2018, 12:23 PM
  #30  
AgentEran
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Originally Posted by vader86
Rear gear change would be a terrible choice for an L98, it is an LT1 mod.

If he has stick, he has 3.07, which is perfect for the engine.
Agreed, I wouldnt gear a tpi car
Old 06-20-2018, 01:02 PM
  #31  
TheBlaster9001
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Originally Posted by bjankuski



-See the attached sheet, air velocity decreases laminar flow not increases it.
-Air is pushed through a throttle body not sucked through it
-Throttle body CFM are determined by a how much air is flowing through the throttle body at a pressure differentail of 1.5" HG, which means at the rated flow the pressure in the plenium of the engine is 1.5 inches lower then atmosphere. So if the atmospher is 29.92 the pressure in the plenium at rated flow is 28.42 or 5% lower then atmosphere which means you are lossing at least 5% of you engine power to that restriction. Does not sound ideal to me! That formula you use to determine throttle body size was based on carb data where you need velocity through the venturi to cause a pressure differential that will cause fuel to flow through the main jets. The fuel is pushed out of the main jet not sucked. This does not apply to a dry flow throttle body system on a TPI car.
-Air flow speed through the throttle body is not important what is important is air flow through the runners on the engine. The highest pressure in the plenium will give the highest flow through the runners or highest VE for the given situation.
-I agree that a larger throttle body is not needed for this application but I want to kill that old wise tail that keeps getting passed around that larger throttle bodies will decrease power. They will not.
-Just think about this, would GM put 90mm and larger throttle bodies on there new cars if they killed power? The air flow of one 90mm throttle body is 17% more then twin 58mm throttle bodies. These are dry flow systems and larger does not hurt.
Thanks for the info, its interesting, and a TIL for me.
I do agree with you that it won't hurt performance, but there is no way it helps a stock engine. I would put money on the fact that without a tune a bigger TB could cause issues to be the origin of the 'loss if power' myth.
Old 06-23-2018, 07:16 AM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by bjankuski
This post has many issues, I don't want to get too far off the OP question so I will just say I agree to disagree. I will also say i have never seen a larger throttle body on a TPI style engine make less power on the dyno. TB are not carbs and most of the items you list above are incorrect.

This post does have many issues. If you want more power and want to feel a drastic difference in power you need to change pretty much everything.



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