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Yeah, I'm sorry you also got a bad machined manifold and I feel your pain. We NEVER had an issue with machining when done locally. I still use our local machinist for a lot of jobs and he is spot on with his work. I feel that we should pull our tooling from Eddie Motorsports in CA since they not only seem to have issues doing it right for some unknown reason and makes us look bad, but I have heard that their customer service is not the greatest either. Hopefully down the road you will give it another shot or something. Did you buy it from EMS or Summit? Either or, I would demand your money back and if you paid with a credit card, call the card company and file a compliant, they should refund your money and deal with the seller. I wish I could help you out more, but it's out of my hands unfortunately.
It was ecklers. We may have discussed this a while back, last year? EMS atleast tried to pressure for us but ecklers just downright sucks lol. I threw the hypothetical at summit and they atleast would have honored it. I've written off ecklers st this point and judging by their 1.2 star rating they have now... for good reason.
I've had the thing for 2 years come April, pretty sure its beyond dispute at this point. Basically, ecklers wanted the intake back before they would even determine a defect... I've had intakes from summit the same way and they overnighted new ones so I could do a swap and send. I was going back to school and didn't want to lose the car for the rest of the summer. So a lot of it was my fault as well. But a manufacturing defect is a manufacturing defect. If my company said some of the things to its customers that ecklers said to me we'd probably have a lawsuit right now. Oh well.
The biggest problem is the runners had a casting shift and the intake gasket couldn't seal. I know of only 1 or 2 ways to fix that and I really don't feel like using a welder on a new intake to shift the ports back.
It was ecklers. We may have discussed this a while back, last year? EMS atleast tried to pressure for us but ecklers just downright sucks lol. I threw the hypothetical at summit and they atleast would have honored it. I've written off ecklers st this point and judging by their 1.2 star rating they have now... for good reason.
I've had the thing for 2 years come April, pretty sure its beyond dispute at this point. Basically, ecklers wanted the intake back before they would even determine a defect... I've had intakes from summit the same way and they overnighted new ones so I could do a swap and send. I was going back to school and didn't want to lose the car for the rest of the summer. So a lot of it was my fault as well. But a manufacturing defect is a manufacturing defect. If my company said some of the things to its customers that ecklers said to me we'd probably have a lawsuit right now. Oh well.
The biggest problem is the runners had a casting shift and the intake gasket couldn't seal. I know of only 1 or 2 ways to fix that and I really don't feel like using a welder on a new intake to shift the ports back.
Did I talk to you on the phone about this a while back by chance? If so, and even if you got it from Eckler's, I would contact your CC company and file a dispute and at least get your money back. Master card is REALLY good about that kind of stuff. That doesn't sound good for Eckler's and makes you wonder about their quality as well. This is not the first time though that I heard that Eckler's was extremely difficult to deal with.
It sounds like the tool core shifted in the casting process which it can and does happen if you just slap it together in sand. It has to be compacted very well to stabilize the core molds and very hard to tell after the fact in raw casting. However, it should have been caught at the machining process if they inspect them. I have been through ALL of the stages of production with the manifold and very aware of the entire process. ATTENTION TO DETAIL is crucial at the end of the process.
Did I talk to you on the phone about this a while back by chance? If so, and even if you got it from Eckler's, I would contact your CC company and file a dispute and at least get your money back. Master card is REALLY good about that kind of stuff. That doesn't sound good for Eckler's and makes you wonder about their quality as well. This is not the first time though that I heard that Eckler's was extremely difficult to deal with.
It sounds like the tool core shifted in the casting process which it can and does happen if you just slap it together in sand. It has to be compacted very well to stabilize the core molds and very hard to tell after the fact in raw casting. However, it should have been caught at the machining process if they inspect them. I have been through ALL of the stages of production with the manifold and very aware of the entire process. ATTENTION TO DETAIL is crucial at the end of the process.
No, we just sent PMs here iirc. This was all around when I ordered the ham board last spring... actually around this time last year.
There is a lot to be said for going through the learning process. Learning how to plan the mods, learning how to do the mods, learning what should be done and when. The education of simply going through the process, making mistakes, getting out of the mistakes, etc will stay with you the rest of your life.
Learning that it is OK to do what you want, regardless of internet opinions. Now I don't mean opinions and guidance on actually how to accomplish something, just opinions that don't fit into your vision of what you want. Sometimes it is better to have spent, maybe spent what you shouldn't have and have to redo something.
If you let everythink sink in, it is well worth the education. Just look how much further you are ahead than other people your age/situation, etc.
Not to derail this thread anymore but I did pick up a set of 1205s just to see what could be done. The roof is the lower part in the photo and that was definitely my problem I believe. I could probably notch the holes and make it work.
@C6_Racer_X I was originally planning on a Renegade intake and a chip this summer but if the CFI engine can't get to 350 hp then I'm not going to try because it would be a waste of money and I'd be left unsatisfied. @Buccaneer Isn't CFI in some ways just like a two barrel throttle body EFI? Also, I said in my original that I don't want to go LS. I figured that a 350 or 383 could get me to 360-400 hp and I'd still get to use the Melrose headers I just installed a couple months ago as well as stock motor mounts.
CFI is a throttle body injection system with two throttle bodies and a fuel injector in each throttle body. It's two separate and independent throttle bodies connected by linkages to operate together.
Those headers probably didn't do much, unless your exhaust had collapsed/clogged cats, but those will make even more power with an improved intake.
I'm not telling you what you should do with your 1984 Corvette, but if I had one I was restoring/improving, I'd be private messaging @Buccaneer and asking him how much he would charge to inspect and verify a renegade manifold, and I'd order one from SummitRacing.com or Amazon.com (or anyplace with a good return policy) and ship it directly to him and let him inspect it. When he's happy that it is what it's supposed to be, I'd send him a shipping label to forward the "known good" renegade manifold to me.
With the Renegade and the headers (or full exhaust system ) you have now, you're probably about ready for your first new chip for the computer. I'd find someone who offers a decent discount for "repeat offenders" and can burn something customized for new camshaft, lifters and possibly a compression increase from head milling or even higher flow replacement heads when you make your next upgrades.
350 horsepower should be attainable with that motor.
If you want to avoid the Renegade manifold and go with truck parts, that can work. It doesn't look "correct" for a Corvette, but it will perform well. The stock TBI units with two injectors can plug right in to the 1984 wiring harnesses (some adapters/extensions might be needed, I'm not sure). If you go with an aftermarket intake manifold for a TBI truck, be careful. It's really easy to put truck parts on that engine that won't let the hood close, then you have to get a "cowl induction" hood with more clearance for the truck parts.
The Renegade manifold alone on a stock 1984 corvette (stock but undamaged, unclogged exhaust system) will bump power from 205hp at the crank to the 240hp to 250hp crank horsepower range. At the wheels, it will move you from ~170(ish) wheel horsepower up to ~205(ish) wheel horsepower. In stock form, max power is at 4,300 RPMs and the thing goes soft above that, primarily due to the intake restriction. With a better intake (either porting the stock one, a good Renegade manifold, or a good truck manifold with truck throttle body) you'll get another 700RPM to 1000 RPM before the thing goes soft at the top. The stock maps in the computer will handle that with no problems.
Your improved exhaust (especially if you have the full system with no cats) will give you another 500-700 RPM beyond that, and move the power peak up from 4,300 RPMs in fully stock form up to maybe 5,800 RPMs +/-200 RPMs. That will probably benefit from a new chip tuned for the higher flow. Install a wide band O2 sensor and "air fuel ratio meter" to see where you're at and monitor that.
One final note with the L98 engine (not entirely specific to the 1984 model year). It uses flat tappets and a "slider cam." Modern motor oils will wipe out the cam in a year or two. You must run high zinc oil in that engine, or you'll be wiping lobes off the camshaft. Use PennGrade One oil at a minimum, and consider even higher zinc racing oils or a zinc additive to your oil. I highly recommend sending a sample of your old oil (what you're draining) at your next oil change for a lab test. Either use Blackstone Labs, you can get their services online, or check with your local Napa or O'Reilly for a lab test kit that they sell. You want at least 1200 ppm zinc in your old oil when you change it. Less than that and you'll start seeing higher metal levels, too, and that metal is from the camshaft(s) and tappets.
I'm getting good results with PennGrade One oils when I religiously change oil at 3,000 miles or 3 months in my "driver" classics with flat tappets (one Mercedes Benz engine and one VW engine right now). I have family, friends and clients running that in many other older engines as well, and even though some of those have had camshafts replaced, there have been no issues with anyone after switching to the higher zinc PennGrade One oils.
I've seen a ton of camshafts with one or more lobes wiped flat in the past 5 years or so. It's not that expensive for your engine, camshafts are under $100 for the small block Chevy. For a Mercedes Benz M117 engine, the cams are over $500 each, and there's two of them, one in each head. Oil changes, even with expensive oil, and lab analysis kits are cheap insurance in comparison.
@ex-x-fire The only reason I would do that is if I knew I could get my motor to 350 hp. If not, then I'm not going to even bother modding my car any more than I already have.
@drcook I want to go through the learning process but minus the mistakes. That's why I'm here. XD
@84 4+3 Is that your Renegade? I can't tell due to the close up picture.
@C6_Racer_X I have the full Melrose kit with the x pipe. I could pm Buccaneer but like I said in my initial post, I'm nowhere near being ready to spend money. I'm still trying to get my budget together. I'm hoping someone like Buccaneer who has gone all the way through an L83 will let me know hp numbers and if it's even worth trying. Also, I'm 500 miles away from an oil change so I'll check out that high zinc oil. My family always does 3k miles or 1 year. I know everything says something like 7k miles, so maybe we should just listen, but oh well.
Last edited by James C4; 03-15-2019 at 10:30 PM.
Reason: I can't spell.
@ex-x-fire The only reason I would do that is if I knew I could get my motor to 350 hp. If not, then I'm not going to even bother modding my car any more than I already have.
@drcook I want to go through the learning process but minus the mistakes. That's why I'm here. XD
@84 4+3 Is that your Renegade? I can't tell due to the close up picture.
@C6_Racer_X I have the full Melrose kit with the x pipe. I could pm Buccaneer but like I said in my initial post, I'm nowhere near being ready to spend money. I'm still trying to get my budget together. I'm hoping someone like Buccaneer who has gone all the way through an L83 will let me know hp numbers and if it's even worth trying. Also, I'm 500 miles away from an oil change so I'll check out that high zinc oil. My family always does 3k miles or 1 year. I know everything says something like 7k miles, so maybe we should just listen, but oh well.
Yes sir, that's the casting shift I've been dealing with. Oh well.
@ex-x-fire The only reason I would do that is if I knew I could get my motor to 350 hp. If not, then I'm not going to even bother modding my car any more than I already have.
@drcook I want to go through the learning process but minus the mistakes. That's why I'm here. XD
@84 4+3 Is that your Renegade? I can't tell due to the close up picture.
@C6_Racer_X I have the full Melrose kit with the x pipe. I could pm Buccaneer but like I said in my initial post, I'm nowhere near being ready to spend money. I'm still trying to get my budget together. I'm hoping someone like Buccaneer who has gone all the way through an L83 will let me know hp numbers and if it's even worth trying. Also, I'm 500 miles away from an oil change so I'll check out that high zinc oil. My family always does 3k miles or 1 year. I know everything says something like 7k miles, so maybe we should just listen, but oh well.
On a good running bone stock 82/84 CF you should be able to get 30-32hp at the rear wheels. A few got slightly less and a couple got a little more, those are the average though. On a modded 383 motor, Ben73 and his 84 NA CF motor dropped his ET just over an additional 3 tenths in the 1/4 and runs 12.20s consistently with the Renegade vs. running the famous Xram which was thought to be so good and ran a 12.52 once, but never repeated it and would run 12.55 all day...jus sayin'.
@Buccaneer So obviously the L83 turned into a 383 puts down some good times, but how much do these guys have into it? Obviously pushing more power will require other modifications such as the differential, but just in the motor. Is it worth it to pull the motor, have it built to a 383, buy all the parts, get a different computer, and putting the motor back in, or is it better to pull the old motor and slap a new one in? If I threw in a crate motor, could I throw on the Renegade and a chip and be good to go? Also, I see a lot of people talk about EBL Flash and I looked it up and it cost something like $450. Is that correct, and what are the benefits of it? Sorry for all the questions, I just don't know a whole lot.
@Buccaneer So obviously the L83 turned into a 383 puts down some good times, but how much do these guys have into it? Obviously pushing more power will require other modifications such as the differential, but just in the motor. Is it worth it to pull the motor, have it built to a 383, buy all the parts, get a different computer, and putting the motor back in, or is it better to pull the old motor and slap a new one in? If I threw in a crate motor, could I throw on the Renegade and a chip and be good to go? Also, I see a lot of people talk about EBL Flash and I looked it up and it cost something like $450. Is that correct, and what are the benefits of it? Sorry for all the questions, I just don't know a whole lot.
Yeah, going fast in a CF isn't any different really than going fast in any other SBC. How deep are your pockets? Going fast can be rather expensive because you don't want to go cheap. As long as you don't go full retard on the power to the rear, you can get away with a fair amount, but like everything else, it will eventually break, more so on the 84 with a Dana 36, they tend not to take a beating. I will NOT LIE, you will have to do a fair amount of mods even to get to say 420ish at the crank and is it what you want? Only you can answer that one. You can not just put a chip on a fairly modded motor and run the stock ECM. Well, you can, but it won't run correctly or to its full potential.EBL FLASH II is your best bet and it isn't cheap really, but if you want to build a 435+ motor it's a necessary evil...OR you could go to a different system altogether like Haltech which would make it a state of the art system and just about as good as its going to get. Get ready for sticker shock on that project if you think $450 is high. Then get ready for all the tuning you will have to do as I refer to it as going to the DARK SIDE. It has a very steep learning curve. I don't even want to add up all the cash I've spent on my motors for my 82, I would probably vapor lock on the spot. Could have done a nice LS conversion for sure.I'm running the EBL FLASH II now on my latest 383 motor and works OK. See my sig below for my mods which isn't all of them either.
@Buccaneer Right now my pockets are shallow, but I'd rather save up over time and do it right the first time. What ECM would go with a throttle body fuel injection like the CFI?I guess I don't really understand the difference between a chip and an ECM. If I went with an aftermarket EFI that's more like the throttle body injection on trucks, would it come with an ECM and how would I make it compatible with everything else in the car? Right now I'm leaning towards crate motor and CFI setup with the bigger injectors so I get a fresh start on the motor and still get to keep the value of having the original injection system. That way, everything should hook back up like it's stock and I would just have to tune the motor, correct?
Is it worth trying to mod the '84 to high 300 low 400 horsepower range? I'm in high school and don't have a ton of money so I don't want to spend money on the crossfire, be disappointed, and then do an engine swap. I'd rather leave it slow and save up with a job during college for a nice crate motor. I did a lot of research on the forums and selected about $2,000 in parts that I would like to save up for, but a lot of people said it would just get to 300 hp if I was lucky. I'm looking at anything from an engine like this to one like this 383 if I were to do an engine swap. The first one is significantly cheaper but I'm not sure if either of them would work in the '84. For some reason the second one goes to eBay and not Summit but it's BluePrint Engines GM 383 C.I.D. 430 HP Stroker Base Long Blocks w/Aluminum Heads BP38313CT1 on Summit.
If I did an engine swap, would it be worth buying a Renegade and trying to keep the ceasefire, or would it be better to switch to EFI? If I went EFI, what other modifications would be required to accommodate the different computer and fuel delivery as well as the crate motor itself? I'm not even looking at an LS because I figured a normal SBC would be cheaper and easier. Also, these crate motors have higher hp and torque ratings than a stock LS1 which I consider enough.
Any and all info would be greatly appreciated. I don't want to spend much more than $4,000 on the engine and would prefer to spend less. None of this is happening anytime soon. I'm just trying to decide what I'm going to do in the future to avoid wasting money. Finally, I don't know why some random words have links now that take you to eBay. I tried to unlink them and nothing happened. Sorry about that.
Thanks,
James
Hey man. I know im a littke late but i'd definitely go for mods on the stock motor if you want to achieve 400. I have an 84 with a pair of promaxx aluminum 190cc heads, a 268H comp cam, ARP fasteners and bolts, a new distributor and plugs, 454 big block 7.4L injectors, and a renegade manifold with Dynamic EFI and a wideband O2 sensor. I spent MAYBE 3000$ on all that and its going through stock exhaust. Dynamic's flywheel dyno is saying the engine is at 350 horse and 396 ft lbs torque. And thats without a 3.5 inch dual exhaust and a set of long tube headers. You do that and a mild tune on the aftermarket ecu and im sure you could get somehwere near if not over 400 flywheel. Wheels well do the math for 15% loss and figure out how much youd need for 400 wheel but. You get the idea. Im not the most experienced 84 owner on the forum by far but my dinky 700r4 has held up against all that and my stall converter is stock too. Car seems to run fine until it breaks itself and proves me otherwise
@HPaddic3d Thanks for the info. Just when I thought I would go crate motor with Renegade, you come in here with 350hp on the original motor. There's a lot to consider.
Not sure what your plans for computer EFI upgrade. The early C4's don't have alot of flexibility if your going to run the stock stuff. I would find a decent Ls 6.0/6.2. Get one with a transmission/wiring/computer. The early C4 makes a decent LS swap. Depends on you. That what I've done with my car. I probably have into my C4 LS 6.0 swap what that blueprint engine worth. Depends on what you want in the end.
James C4 I guess I don't really understand the difference between a chip and an ECM.
The ECM is the electronic control module or computer, the chip is inside the ECM which holds/controls the tune for the motor. We used to burn 84 modified chips that worked great and even took care of GMs "chuggleing" issue, their term, not mine. Unfortunately, those chips are very hard to find anymore and if you do find them, the error rate was rather high if you got good ones. We always had to buy in bulk and hoped that we got a fair amount of good ones, sometimes not and wasted a lot of money. Funny thing is about those chips, they are the same chips used in a lot of the late 70s and early 80s arcade games. We stopped burning them as the supply and quality went south. Some people have had luck with other related chips, but we thought it best not to temp fate. Good luck with whatever motor you choose.
@Mike Holmen I just figured a crate engine would be easier but who knows, maybe not. Also, I live in a rural area so the chances of finding a junkyard LS to swap in are very low.
@Buccaneer so what chip do you have in your 7747 ECM? Is the EBL Flash II a chip or what you use to tune a chip? Also, do you know any good crate engines? I noticed the first crate motor I linked, the one with about 370 hp says that it won't work with factory fuel injection because of the vortec heads. I'd feel like an idiot if I saved up a ton of money for a crate motor and bought one that wouldn't work and had to return it.
@Mike Holmen I just figured a crate engine would be easier but who knows, maybe not. Also, I live in a rural area so the chances of finding a junkyard LS to swap in are very low.
@Buccaneer so what chip do you have in your 7747 ECM? Is the EBL Flash II a chip or what you use to tune a chip? Also, do you know any good crate engines? I noticed the first crate motor I linked, the one with about 370 hp says that it won't work with factory fuel injection because of the vortec heads. I'd feel like an idiot if I saved up a ton of money for a crate motor and bought one that wouldn't work and had to return it.
I do not have a "chip" persay like the stock ECM, it's the EBL FLASH II from Dynamic EFI. The Embedded Locker (EBL) is programmable via their What's Up Display (WUD) and also used for data logging. The tune is done in TunerPro R/T and then you upload the saved tune into WUD. Before FLASH II you did the tune and uploaded it to the ECM via TunerPro and used the Ostrich interface and just did data logging with WUD...I know, it gets complicated. Anyway, your best bet for reading on all this is to go to DEFI EBL and Thirdgen.org and start doing a LOT of reading. There are plenty of people on that forum to answer questions about EBL and TunerPro and the site is very active. rBob (screen name) is the owner of DEFI and he is on there a lot and can answer any questions you may have about his products. I hope this helped or muddied the water even more for you. You could go Haltech, but you would have to repin your entire stock harness to the new ECM, but have a state-of-the-art system at that point which is what I was going to do, and changed my mind after the EBL FLASH II came out and does away with the Ostrich interface altogether.
Scroll down to the bottom of the EBL link and you will see the NOTE for CFI Corvtte.
Save yourself a LOT of grief...You can not use ANY vortec head motor with the CFI/Renegade manifold. There are people out there that will say you can do it, but it IS dicey at best. Just stay away from it.
03-14-2019, 08:14 AM
Hopefully down the road you will give it another shot or something. Did you buy it from EMS or Summit? Either or, I would demand your money back and if you paid with a credit card, call the card company and file a compliant, they should refund your money and deal with the seller. I wish I could help you out more, but it's out of my hands unfortunately.
You could go Haltech, but you would have to repin your entire stock harness to the new ECM, but have a state-of-the-art system at that point which is what I was going to do, and changed my mind after the EBL FLASH II came out and does away with the Ostrich interface altogether.