Do you use a "water wetter"?
03-14-2019, 07:46 PM
#21
Le Mans Master
Awww... C'mon. You don't need to time vs Delta T. Just make sure you have it recorded on video. If you want to get an idea of what it will do, just fill your dishwasher cup with dish soap rather than the powder dishwasher soap. You will have suds on the floor in no time and you won't believe the amount of bubbles that can be generated. Just ask my college roommate 
I would picture massive bubbles trying to escape to the overflow tank and the coming out of the vented cap.
My Viper ran hard down against it's thermostat too when on the highway or back country roads. It would even set in traffic for a good 5 minutes before it the cooling fan even kicked on.. but once it starting getting hot... it got hot. It would slowly creep up to 190, 200, 220 and so on by the factory gage It never overheated, but you could tell the engine was not happy about being that warm not to mention the heat soak to the interior as that heat filled the transmission tunnel. It is enough having side pipes, have that heat creap in would start to get uncomfortable on a hot day.
I replace the t-stat (Factory 180), made sure the radiator was clear of debris and blowed it out from the rear with compressed air, changed the coolant yearly and you could tell both fans function. I was told by fellow owners this was all just normal. So, I added some water wetter to just see. It ran just a tick cooler (again by factory gage) the summer I had it in. I estimate based off the gage, it was about 10 degrees cooler. Not much, but the stuff isn't all that expensive. Question the accuracy of the gage.. was it 10, 20, 30 or somewhere inbetween? I will say 10 as a conservative mark.
I do not use it in my Iroc or C4, neither seem to have issues with heat soak. It will only help. It won't solve overheating issues.
I would picture massive bubbles trying to escape to the overflow tank and the coming out of the vented cap.
My Viper ran hard down against it's thermostat too when on the highway or back country roads. It would even set in traffic for a good 5 minutes before it the cooling fan even kicked on.. but once it starting getting hot... it got hot. It would slowly creep up to 190, 200, 220 and so on by the factory gage It never overheated, but you could tell the engine was not happy about being that warm not to mention the heat soak to the interior as that heat filled the transmission tunnel. It is enough having side pipes, have that heat creap in would start to get uncomfortable on a hot day.
I replace the t-stat (Factory 180), made sure the radiator was clear of debris and blowed it out from the rear with compressed air, changed the coolant yearly and you could tell both fans function. I was told by fellow owners this was all just normal. So, I added some water wetter to just see. It ran just a tick cooler (again by factory gage) the summer I had it in. I estimate based off the gage, it was about 10 degrees cooler. Not much, but the stuff isn't all that expensive. Question the accuracy of the gage.. was it 10, 20, 30 or somewhere inbetween? I will say 10 as a conservative mark.
I do not use it in my Iroc or C4, neither seem to have issues with heat soak. It will only help. It won't solve overheating issues.
Heat transfer is heat transfer... or the q is the q if you want to go that way. You can't change the heatransfer coefficient of water... but you can improve interface interactions... so yes a surfactant should help. Salt water has a lower heat transfer coefficient than straight water as does 50/50. So let us see what else in there. 2 alcohols and a corrosion inhibitor. The corrosion inhibitor accounts for less than 3% so it probably has no meaningful impact on heat transfer so we're left with the two alcohols. Well we can assume they also have a lower heat transfer coefficient. So what's going on here? Well, my statement as before, you're just marginally improving the interface... a better way to look at it is that you simply are improving the mixing... in the simplest sense.
And I am not stupid, I'd run it on a test apparatus in a lab. You can play temp readings in the car all you want but a change in cooling time is the same weather it's on a bench or in a car no? I'm not saying you should add soap... that's just dumb. But I mean if you want me to try it in my car, sure. I'll just make sure I add the deforming agent at the same time.
If you want a real lab test, I'm game. We can see and measure exactly what water wetter does compared to straight water and compared to water with soap. Just let me know. I need a day or two to gather all the pieces for the test. Just let me know.
03-14-2019, 08:21 PM
#22
Race Director
It would be interesting to see your test!
03-14-2019, 09:47 PM
#24
Team Owner
My college roommate went to do that too but atleast asked me before hand. I can not repeat what I called him because I would probably be banned on the spot. Lol.
Heat transfer is heat transfer... or the q is the q if you want to go that way. You can't change the heatransfer coefficient of water... but you can improve interface interactions... so yes a surfactant should help. Salt water has a lower heat transfer coefficient than straight water as does 50/50. So let us see what else in there. 2 alcohols and a corrosion inhibitor. The corrosion inhibitor accounts for less than 3% so it probably has no meaningful impact on heat transfer so we're left with the two alcohols. Well we can assume they also have a lower heat transfer coefficient. So what's going on here? Well, my statement as before, you're just marginally improving the interface... a better way to look at it is that you simply are improving the mixing... in the simplest sense.
And I am not stupid, I'd run it on a test apparatus in a lab. You can play temp readings in the car all you want but a change in cooling time is the same weather it's on a bench or in a car no? I'm not saying you should add soap... that's just dumb. But I mean if you want me to try it in my car, sure. I'll just make sure I add the deforming agent at the same time.
If you want a real lab test, I'm game. We can see and measure exactly what water wetter does compared to straight water and compared to water with soap. Just let me know. I need a day or two to gather all the pieces for the test. Just let me know.
Heat transfer is heat transfer... or the q is the q if you want to go that way. You can't change the heatransfer coefficient of water... but you can improve interface interactions... so yes a surfactant should help. Salt water has a lower heat transfer coefficient than straight water as does 50/50. So let us see what else in there. 2 alcohols and a corrosion inhibitor. The corrosion inhibitor accounts for less than 3% so it probably has no meaningful impact on heat transfer so we're left with the two alcohols. Well we can assume they also have a lower heat transfer coefficient. So what's going on here? Well, my statement as before, you're just marginally improving the interface... a better way to look at it is that you simply are improving the mixing... in the simplest sense.
And I am not stupid, I'd run it on a test apparatus in a lab. You can play temp readings in the car all you want but a change in cooling time is the same weather it's on a bench or in a car no? I'm not saying you should add soap... that's just dumb. But I mean if you want me to try it in my car, sure. I'll just make sure I add the deforming agent at the same time.
If you want a real lab test, I'm game. We can see and measure exactly what water wetter does compared to straight water and compared to water with soap. Just let me know. I need a day or two to gather all the pieces for the test. Just let me know.
03-14-2019, 10:52 PM
#25
Le Mans Master
I'm interested. Please record it. Any way you can test it with 50/50 mix of antifreeze as well under pressure? I'm real curious what you find. I have no doubt that there is some gain to be had. What I don't know is how little or how much. If all you have is a drop of a tenth of a degree, well, the only thing selling it is "It's pretty cheap so no big deal if it doesn't work.". OTOH, if it can bring down the temps significantly enough for a street vehicle, it will be very interesting. I've run the car with WW before in stop and go traffic with the AC on in summer but it still went up till the AC was shut off and I was baking. So if more will help, I'd be curious to put it in again.
My plan is this:
tube and fin cooler.
Pump running at a specific gpm
Efan bolted directly to cooler
Ambient air temp monitor
Fluid heated to specific control temperature
Time required to reach a 75% reduction in water temperature
As long as air temp and fluid temp remain constant between tests, we should be able to measure time differences between all the tests and determine if there was a significant change in the overall removal of heat from the fluid. Plain and simple.
03-15-2019, 02:11 PM
#28
Team Owner
Member Since: Oct 2004
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St. Jude Donor '05
t would even set in traffic for a good 5 minutes before it the cooling fan even kicked on.. but once it starting getting hot... it got hot. It would slowly creep up to 190, 200, 220 and so on
My old Z felt like it would lose a ton of power once it started creeping past 200, wouldnt even bother getting on it.
03-15-2019, 02:17 PM
#29
Team Owner
So running at pressure would have no effect... the only reason cars use a pressurized cooling system is to increase the boiling point of the water in it. In other words, heat transfer only depends on the conductivity of the materials and relative temperatures. I'll gladly try it with a 50/50 mixture though.
My plan is this:
tube and fin cooler.
Pump running at a specific gpm
Efan bolted directly to cooler
Ambient air temp monitor
Fluid heated to specific control temperature
Time required to reach a 75% reduction in water temperature
As long as air temp and fluid temp remain constant between tests, we should be able to measure time differences between all the tests and determine if there was a significant change in the overall removal of heat from the fluid. Plain and simple.
My plan is this:
tube and fin cooler.
Pump running at a specific gpm
Efan bolted directly to cooler
Ambient air temp monitor
Fluid heated to specific control temperature
Time required to reach a 75% reduction in water temperature
As long as air temp and fluid temp remain constant between tests, we should be able to measure time differences between all the tests and determine if there was a significant change in the overall removal of heat from the fluid. Plain and simple.
03-15-2019, 02:45 PM
#30
Le Mans Master
I agree that the pressure is to increase the boiling point but do you think that the water at a given temperature and pressure has less energy than if you had it at a higher pressure? Or does it not matter since it is conductivity that we are talking about? It's been a while so I might be rusty on that.
03-15-2019, 11:04 PM
#31
Team Owner
Any heat transfer I've done uses pressure only to determine the drop in flow across a heat exchanger. So I mean if it were to slow down that will effect delta T but if it has any meaningful impact? Not that I've ever seen. However with gases that's different because you now have a compressible fluid and densities change and all that.
03-16-2019, 12:33 AM
#32
Le Mans Master
03-16-2019, 12:02 PM
#33
Drifting
Lighten up and take a joke
03-16-2019, 12:07 PM
#34
Drifting
You should test with and without pressure and verify there is not change.
You are correct in you analysis about how it interfaces with it's surroundings. Don't forget that interface can be effected by pressure. Also, materials act differently when shifted in their phase diagrams. I am not sure on water, would have to do some research if preventing water from boiling at 212 would change any of it's behaviors at 260 if still in liquid form.
You are correct in you analysis about how it interfaces with it's surroundings. Don't forget that interface can be effected by pressure. Also, materials act differently when shifted in their phase diagrams. I am not sure on water, would have to do some research if preventing water from boiling at 212 would change any of it's behaviors at 260 if still in liquid form.
03-16-2019, 12:19 PM
#35
"Water Wetter" belongs right alongside STP (benefit unknown), Slick50 (benefit unproven), SeaFoam(benefit unknown) and various additives claiming to "undo" the harmful effects of alcohol in gasoline. (These same additives once WERE methyl alcohol, to "getter" any water in your tank, like HEET)
Get your cooling system working properly and skip all the snake oil.
Start with a new radiator cap and a 30 minute pressure test. 50/50 coolant/distilled water.
Get your cooling system working properly and skip all the snake oil.
Start with a new radiator cap and a 30 minute pressure test. 50/50 coolant/distilled water.
Last edited by wadenelson; 03-16-2019 at 01:27 PM.
03-16-2019, 01:50 PM
#36
Team Owner
Right alongside STP (benefit unknown), Slick50 (benefit unproven), SeaFoam(benefit unknown) comes "Water Wetter"
Get your cooling system working properly and skip the snake oil.
Start with a new radiator cap and a 30 minute pressure test. 50/50 coolant/distilled water.
Get your cooling system working properly and skip the snake oil.
Start with a new radiator cap and a 30 minute pressure test. 50/50 coolant/distilled water.
03-17-2019, 10:06 AM
#37
Le Mans Master
You should test with and without pressure and verify there is not change.
You are correct in you analysis about how it interfaces with it's surroundings. Don't forget that interface can be effected by pressure. Also, materials act differently when shifted in their phase diagrams. I am not sure on water, would have to do some research if preventing water from boiling at 212 would change any of it's behaviors at 260 if still in liquid form.
You are correct in you analysis about how it interfaces with it's surroundings. Don't forget that interface can be effected by pressure. Also, materials act differently when shifted in their phase diagrams. I am not sure on water, would have to do some research if preventing water from boiling at 212 would change any of it's behaviors at 260 if still in liquid form.
03-17-2019, 05:16 PM
#38
Burning Brakes
I used water wetter in a v8 s-10 years ago. I was using two small electric fans because I didn't have room between the radiator and water pump for a proper sized fan. It dropped the temperature 15 - 20 degrees driving in city traffic. As others have said, no need for anything extra if everything else is working like it should.
03-18-2019, 09:24 AM
#39
Drifting
One thing I know is, if you take a fluid, put it under pressure and heat it passed it's non-pressurized boiling point , then release this pressure it will consume more heat (energy) to phase change to a gas. This is Latent Heat of Vaporization. Now, we are not doing this in our cooling system, but it is just an example of how playing with pressure/phase can effect behavior.
Really to do an apples to apples test, It would need to be under pressure in my opinion. IT would just be another variable that would remain having an unknown effect.
I am not sure of your test bench set up, but a cars cooling system is closed. Under pressure both sides of the pump should see pressure. The resistance out and the pressure pushing in should be relatively close in a closed system. The head resistance should still only be the flow losses. Again, I would have to have a look at what your set up is to fully understand.
03-18-2019, 09:41 AM
#40
Team Owner
Pro Mechanic
I can't see why it needs to be under pressure. If the stuff works, it works and it should clearly demonstrate better heat transfer under pressure or not.
