Turbo 4.8 swap makes 559 wheel on 8PSI
06-27-2019, 06:20 PM
#21
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
Doesn't drive any different than the stock th400 converter I had before, only noticeable difference is when short shifting into 3rd and the RPM doesn't drop. The $500 PTC works very well.
06-28-2019, 01:33 PM
#22
Drifting
Depends on what you want.
I don't see anyone talking about Millions, ever.
LS Builds can be great, SBC builds can also be great.
I don't want to take away from the OP's accomplishment, those are excellent numbers.
I will just call it how I see it. We see a car with no front end panels, hood, or bumper. A BS claim of 22mpg on E85 through a Turbo 400. 22mpg using E85 with OD would be doing good, with a 3 speed it is wishful thinking. Does cruise control work? How about A/C? Sill have power steering? Did the 4.8 accessory drive work? What about gages in the dash?
When folks talk about an LS swap costing money, it's the details that cost. Bolting something in and getting it to start/run and turn the rear wheel can be done cheap. I don't think anyone disagrees with that, but to have a well sorted, everything functional car... that is where the money starts to add up. Also making it look nice as far as the dash, wiring, and under the hood?
Some people on this thread are dancing around like this is some sort of victory lap. Based of what? An LS making power. We all know they can... and while the money figures here posted were about the basics of getting it in the car. Plus the cost of Turbos and Cam.
was not detailed. So the cost to make this power and use it started to go up... and this is a race car. Not something you are goign to hop in and drive 5 hours away.
I don't know why LS swap guys just don't get this. The money spent doesn't stop once the engine is mounted and able to fire up.
I don't see anyone talking about Millions, ever.
LS Builds can be great, SBC builds can also be great.
I don't want to take away from the OP's accomplishment, those are excellent numbers.
I will just call it how I see it. We see a car with no front end panels, hood, or bumper. A BS claim of 22mpg on E85 through a Turbo 400. 22mpg using E85 with OD would be doing good, with a 3 speed it is wishful thinking. Does cruise control work? How about A/C? Sill have power steering? Did the 4.8 accessory drive work? What about gages in the dash?
When folks talk about an LS swap costing money, it's the details that cost. Bolting something in and getting it to start/run and turn the rear wheel can be done cheap. I don't think anyone disagrees with that, but to have a well sorted, everything functional car... that is where the money starts to add up. Also making it look nice as far as the dash, wiring, and under the hood?
Some people on this thread are dancing around like this is some sort of victory lap. Based of what? An LS making power. We all know they can... and while the money figures here posted were about the basics of getting it in the car. Plus the cost of Turbos and Cam.
I don't know why LS swap guys just don't get this. The money spent doesn't stop once the engine is mounted and able to fire up.
Last edited by KyleF; 06-28-2019 at 01:41 PM.
06-28-2019, 01:39 PM
#23
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
Depends on what you want.
I don't see anyone talking about Millions, ever.
LS Builds can be great, SBC builds can also be great.
I don't want to take away from the OP's accomplishment, those are excellent numbers.
I will just call it how I see it. We see a car with no front end panels, hood, or bumper. A BS claim of 22mpg on E85 through a Turbo 400. 22mpg using E85 with OD would be doing good, with a 3 speed it is wishful thinking. Does cruise control work? How about A/C? Sill have power steering? Did the 4.8 accessory drive work? What about gages in the dash?
When folks talk about an LS swap costing money, it's the details that cost. Bolting something in and getting it to start/run and turn the rear wheel can be done cheap. I don't think anyone disagrees with that, but to have a well sorted, everything functional car... that is where the money starts to add up. Also making it look nice as far as the dash, wiring, and under the hood?
I don't see anyone talking about Millions, ever.
LS Builds can be great, SBC builds can also be great.
I don't want to take away from the OP's accomplishment, those are excellent numbers.
I will just call it how I see it. We see a car with no front end panels, hood, or bumper. A BS claim of 22mpg on E85 through a Turbo 400. 22mpg using E85 with OD would be doing good, with a 3 speed it is wishful thinking. Does cruise control work? How about A/C? Sill have power steering? Did the 4.8 accessory drive work? What about gages in the dash?
When folks talk about an LS swap costing money, it's the details that cost. Bolting something in and getting it to start/run and turn the rear wheel can be done cheap. I don't think anyone disagrees with that, but to have a well sorted, everything functional car... that is where the money starts to add up. Also making it look nice as far as the dash, wiring, and under the hood?
Cruise doesn't work. Its $50 if I want it to. Cruise on an LS is extremely and doesn't add much cost regardless of your throttle body or ECU choice.
Power steering works fine.
4.8 accessory drive all fit perfect except A/C. $160 bracket would have solved A/C clearance issues had I decided to keep it, along with about $60 in new lines and wiring.
Original dash worked with about $70 in Ebay parts, but has been replaced.
06-28-2019, 02:51 PM
#24
Drifting
It does 22 mpg cruising. Not in stoplight traffic, but country road cruising. Mileage has been verified with 3 different methods.
Cruise doesn't work. Its $50 if I want it to. Cruise on an LS is extremely and doesn't add much cost regardless of your throttle body or ECU choice.
Power steering works fine.
4.8 accessory drive all fit perfect except A/C. $160 bracket would have solved A/C clearance issues had I decided to keep it, along with about $60 in new lines and wiring.
Original dash worked with about $70 in Ebay parts, but has been replaced.
Cruise doesn't work. Its $50 if I want it to. Cruise on an LS is extremely and doesn't add much cost regardless of your throttle body or ECU choice.
Power steering works fine.
4.8 accessory drive all fit perfect except A/C. $160 bracket would have solved A/C clearance issues had I decided to keep it, along with about $60 in new lines and wiring.
Original dash worked with about $70 in Ebay parts, but has been replaced.
Touting how cheap it is while also touting how cheap it would have been to keep all functionality is pretty funny.
Last edited by KyleF; 06-28-2019 at 02:52 PM.
06-28-2019, 03:10 PM
#25
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
So, lets see the normal pic assembled including under hood, interior, multi exterior pics. - I would have to test it myself to believe 22mpg on E85 with a 1:1 high gear. 22mpg ib regular gas would be impressive on a V8 with a Turbo 400 making less power than you are.
Touting how cheap it is while also touting how cheap it would have been to keep all functionality is pretty funny.
Touting how cheap it is while also touting how cheap it would have been to keep all functionality is pretty funny.
I have no roof or doors. A/C is pointless.
I swapped from the stock computer to MS3Pro Evo so a tablet for gauges is exponentially more functional than the stock gauge cluster.
Cruise control with huge power can be tricky. If it's set for 80 mph and you accidentally hit resume at 20 mph, you're risking your life. It was a luxury I didnt feel was necessary. A stock LS cruise control box goes for $40. It only needs power, ground, and a VSS input, and then wires from your cruise buttons and brake switch. Most of the throttle cable brackets for the LS engines are already setup for cruise so the hardware side is plug and play.
LS swaps are crazy simple in most cars. It's people that complicate them.
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knikula (06-28-2019)
06-28-2019, 05:13 PM
#26
It’s a fvcking vette kart for crying out loud. Why even mention cruise and ac? Lol
And just because something is modified to make power doesn’t mean it can no longer be reliable.
If anything that’s be proven time and time again in the LS world-not to turn this into an arguement.
out of curiosity-is this thing street legal? I assume it’s no different than a buggy since there’s no body?
also why the 4 turbos instead of a single or even twins?
Lastly is this just a strictly fun street car who do you plan on doing a particular class of racing?
And just because something is modified to make power doesn’t mean it can no longer be reliable.
If anything that’s be proven time and time again in the LS world-not to turn this into an arguement.
out of curiosity-is this thing street legal? I assume it’s no different than a buggy since there’s no body?
also why the 4 turbos instead of a single or even twins?
Lastly is this just a strictly fun street car who do you plan on doing a particular class of racing?
Last edited by slow_zo6; 06-28-2019 at 05:38 PM.
06-28-2019, 05:37 PM
#27
Le Mans Master
It’s a fvcking vette kart for crying out loud. Why even mention cruise and ac? Lol
And just because something is modified to make power doesn’t mean it can no longer be reliable.
out of curiosity-is this thing street legal? I assume it’s no different than a buggy since there’s no body?
also why the 4 turbos instead of a single or even twins?
Lastly is this just a strictly fun street car who do you plan on doing a particular class of racing?
And just because something is modified to make power doesn’t mean it can no longer be reliable.
out of curiosity-is this thing street legal? I assume it’s no different than a buggy since there’s no body?
also why the 4 turbos instead of a single or even twins?
Lastly is this just a strictly fun street car who do you plan on doing a particular class of racing?
06-28-2019, 05:39 PM
#28
If i had to guess, 4 small ones are probably a lot easier to spin up than two large ones. It isn't like more or less restrictive either way, pressure drop frictional losses etc are relatively additive so... That is just my guess. Could also be cost, they could be OEM turbos pulled from a yard. I don't know, turbos I know not much about.
06-28-2019, 08:30 PM
#29
Race Director
Nice build Joe 
06-28-2019, 09:39 PM
#30
Le Mans Master
Yes and no. If you watch cleetus McFarland for example, when they upped the turbo size on the 5.3 they needed a looser stall and higher 2 step to leave on boost. You can spool up anything but it's a matter of where I suppose. Plus theres probably less turbo lag etc. Like I said... I don't know turbos.
06-28-2019, 10:39 PM
#31
I didnt need or want the functionality. It would only be funny if it was cheap and I didnt have a good reason not to go ahead and do it.
I have no roof or doors. A/C is pointless.
I swapped from the stock computer to MS3Pro Evo so a tablet for gauges is exponentially more functional than the stock gauge cluster.
Cruise control with huge power can be tricky. If it's set for 80 mph and you accidentally hit resume at 20 mph, you're risking your life. It was a luxury I didnt feel was necessary. A stock LS cruise control box goes for $40. It only needs power, ground, and a VSS input, and then wires from your cruise buttons and brake switch. Most of the throttle cable brackets for the LS engines are already setup for cruise so the hardware side is plug and play.
LS swaps are crazy simple in most cars. It's people that complicate them.
I have no roof or doors. A/C is pointless.
I swapped from the stock computer to MS3Pro Evo so a tablet for gauges is exponentially more functional than the stock gauge cluster.
Cruise control with huge power can be tricky. If it's set for 80 mph and you accidentally hit resume at 20 mph, you're risking your life. It was a luxury I didnt feel was necessary. A stock LS cruise control box goes for $40. It only needs power, ground, and a VSS input, and then wires from your cruise buttons and brake switch. Most of the throttle cable brackets for the LS engines are already setup for cruise so the hardware side is plug and play.
LS swaps are crazy simple in most cars. It's people that complicate them.
06-29-2019, 01:05 PM
#32
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
I guess I can ask here. Has anyone ever seen faster than a 10.97 with a Dana 36? I know of 2 people to have run a 10.97 on a stock Dana 36, and as far as I know that's the record.
06-29-2019, 01:16 PM
#33
Le Mans Master
I've heard pretty much anything in the 10s is borrowed time... there was a thread a while back discussing the fasted someones ever gone on a D36.
06-29-2019, 04:01 PM
#34
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
07-01-2019, 11:33 PM
#35
Team Owner
Pro Mechanic
Your car weighing ~1k lbs less than typical C4's is what will really help the D36 meet your goal. I love the car!
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knikula (07-03-2019)
07-02-2019, 06:12 AM
#36
Le Mans Master
07-02-2019, 06:29 PM
#37
Drifting
The car doesn't have doors or windows, a tablet for gauges... and a load of reason why other things are not functional.
Why not say it like it is... it is cheap to strap a functional motor to anything...'cause race car. The motor build is impressive. Taking a Vette down to it's pieces and dropping an 4 turbo LS on it and hoping 10.2's is not what most people are discussing when "LS swap" get's mentioned and cost are being discussed.
Oh and that $1500 ms3Pro EVO... left out of the original cost sheet.
This is why real science is only validated after a peer can take the test report, duplicate it, and get the same results. As I said before, the cost is really in the details... a Vette cart lacks the details.
Last edited by KyleF; 07-02-2019 at 06:37 PM.
07-02-2019, 09:38 PM
#38
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
To show a true LS swap in a truly functional car is not as cheap as being touted by you and your buddies.
The car doesn't have doors or windows, a tablet for gauges... and a load of reason why other things are not functional.
Why not say it like it is... it is cheap to strap a functional motor to anything...'cause race car. The motor build is impressive. Taking a Vette down to it's pieces and dropping an 4 turbo LS on it and hoping 10.2's is not what most people are discussing when "LS swap" get's mentioned and cost are being discussed.
Oh and that $1500 ms3Pro EVO... left out of the original cost sheet.
This is why real science is only validated after a peer can take the test report, duplicate it, and get the same results. As I said before, the cost is really in the details... a Vette cart lacks the details.
The car doesn't have doors or windows, a tablet for gauges... and a load of reason why other things are not functional.
Why not say it like it is... it is cheap to strap a functional motor to anything...'cause race car. The motor build is impressive. Taking a Vette down to it's pieces and dropping an 4 turbo LS on it and hoping 10.2's is not what most people are discussing when "LS swap" get's mentioned and cost are being discussed.
Oh and that $1500 ms3Pro EVO... left out of the original cost sheet.
This is why real science is only validated after a peer can take the test report, duplicate it, and get the same results. As I said before, the cost is really in the details... a Vette cart lacks the details.
I would LOVE for you to point me to that magic $3000 fitting that somehow makes these engines unreasonable to swap.
MS3 Pro? I didn't include it because it isn't necessary. I could have used the stock PCM and made just as much power for far cheaper. The MS3 is for the features, not the power. My Nova makes 50% more power and 100% more torque than this car on the wiring and PCM that came with the 5.3 in it.
Here's an example of a budget LS swap I did on a chevelle a while back:
Originally Posted by JoeNova
Just finished up another swap. Code named the "4DoorsMoreWhores" by a buddy of mine, its a white 1969 Chevelle with a mild cammed 5.3 and a 4L60e.
The car came to us in pretty bad shape. Rusted all over, vinyl top has been holding in a LOT of water and the roof is completely rotted out underneath. It had a stock 350/350 combo in it that ran OK, but had to warm up before you attempted to drive it. We put the 350 on a Dyno Dynamics (Often called the Heart Breaker) at a buddy's shop and it made an impressive 104whp.
We pulled out the engine and trans and got started.
The 5.3 was pulled from a Tahoe, complete with everything. No idea on actual mileage. The 4L60e was pulled from a truck we parted out a while back, and I paid $325 for a complete rebuild.
The 5.3 got:
-F-body pan and pickup tube. Modified the stock truck windage tray.
-Achor Mounts part #2142. $3/each from Summit, $6/each at local parts store.
-ICT Billet Mounts part #551628. $35/pair from Summit.
-LS1 MLS head gaskets, part #12498544. $38/pair at Summit.
-Stock LS7 lifters, less than $100 on ebay.
-Howards single beehive springs part #98113, $120/set from Summit.
-Howards 222/225 112 LSA Cam. My GO-TO for mild 5.3. Part #190245-12, $360 from Summit.
-Speed Engineering 1 3/4" A-body headers part #25-1025-1, $250.
-Dorman Power steering Pulley, part # 300-201, $19.
-91" 6-rib belt, works great with the small case alternator and Dorman PS pulley.
For Trans:
-TCI Fastgate shifter
-Stock Driveshaft shortened 5"
-2200 stall converter
-Stock trans crossmember, moved back a couple of inches. Drilled 1 hole for Mount.
Fuel:
-Inline Walbro 255
-Vette filter and regulator
-20' of Summit Twist-tite -6 AN Pushlok hose.
-ICT billet pushlok fittings.
-Unmodified stock tank, stock pickup goes to fuel pump, return goes into a vent.
-Returnless truck rails.
Cooling:
-Stock 2000 truck upper radiator hose.
-F-body fans (they fit these radiators perfect).
-40-amp self-resetting breaker runs both fans at the same time.
Everything else was bone stock.
The exhaust on the car was 2" crimp-bend exhaust, 1 5/8" at the bends.
It has a 2.56 rear gear ratio. First gear tops out at 70, 3rd at 130 lol!
The results?
312whp, 320 ft-lbs on about the 5th dyno pull on a dyno notorious for reading low. Tripled the power of the stock 350. Converted the car from a slow, lazy, unreliable beater to a fuel injected reliable cruiser for $2500 total.
First fire, running pig rich with open headers:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=trGol3iQ4i0
On the dyno: (Smoke is from a little oil on header)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SP8sAp47ozc
The car came to us in pretty bad shape. Rusted all over, vinyl top has been holding in a LOT of water and the roof is completely rotted out underneath. It had a stock 350/350 combo in it that ran OK, but had to warm up before you attempted to drive it. We put the 350 on a Dyno Dynamics (Often called the Heart Breaker) at a buddy's shop and it made an impressive 104whp.
We pulled out the engine and trans and got started.
The 5.3 was pulled from a Tahoe, complete with everything. No idea on actual mileage. The 4L60e was pulled from a truck we parted out a while back, and I paid $325 for a complete rebuild.
The 5.3 got:
-F-body pan and pickup tube. Modified the stock truck windage tray.
-Achor Mounts part #2142. $3/each from Summit, $6/each at local parts store.
-ICT Billet Mounts part #551628. $35/pair from Summit.
-LS1 MLS head gaskets, part #12498544. $38/pair at Summit.
-Stock LS7 lifters, less than $100 on ebay.
-Howards single beehive springs part #98113, $120/set from Summit.
-Howards 222/225 112 LSA Cam. My GO-TO for mild 5.3. Part #190245-12, $360 from Summit.
-Speed Engineering 1 3/4" A-body headers part #25-1025-1, $250.
-Dorman Power steering Pulley, part # 300-201, $19.
-91" 6-rib belt, works great with the small case alternator and Dorman PS pulley.
For Trans:
-TCI Fastgate shifter
-Stock Driveshaft shortened 5"
-2200 stall converter
-Stock trans crossmember, moved back a couple of inches. Drilled 1 hole for Mount.
Fuel:
-Inline Walbro 255
-Vette filter and regulator
-20' of Summit Twist-tite -6 AN Pushlok hose.
-ICT billet pushlok fittings.
-Unmodified stock tank, stock pickup goes to fuel pump, return goes into a vent.
-Returnless truck rails.
Cooling:
-Stock 2000 truck upper radiator hose.
-F-body fans (they fit these radiators perfect).
-40-amp self-resetting breaker runs both fans at the same time.
Everything else was bone stock.
The exhaust on the car was 2" crimp-bend exhaust, 1 5/8" at the bends.
It has a 2.56 rear gear ratio. First gear tops out at 70, 3rd at 130 lol!
The results?
312whp, 320 ft-lbs on about the 5th dyno pull on a dyno notorious for reading low. Tripled the power of the stock 350. Converted the car from a slow, lazy, unreliable beater to a fuel injected reliable cruiser for $2500 total.
First fire, running pig rich with open headers:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=trGol3iQ4i0
On the dyno: (Smoke is from a little oil on header)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SP8sAp47ozc
$2500 for a complete 5.3 and 4l60e swap with new gaskets, cam/lifters/springs, headers, oil pan, mounts, shifter, rebuilt transmission, full EFI conversion, etc.
For that same setup in an automatic C4, exclude: all transmission related items (-$650), fuel system items (-$250), headers (-$300), add in shorty headers (+$250), and A/C components ($600), misc wiring/fittings for stock gauges ($100), and you come out to a total of $2,250 for the same swap in a C4, and right back to $2,500 if you want to include the LS1 intake conversion.
That setup made 312whp on a Dyno Dynamics, which is about 360whp on a Dynojet. The exact same setup with later 5.3 heads/intake did ~430 on the engine dyno.
A larger cam (the one I used drove like STOCK), 400 more RPM, and a slightly more aggressive tune and it would do 400whp.
Thats the same oil pan, motor mount adapters, power steering pulley, that would be required to make it fit in a C4 corvette.
Its only rocket science to those who make it that way.
07-03-2019, 06:47 AM
#39
Le Mans Master
Joe, you may want to look up member rklessdriver.... He has some write ups on getting the d44 to survive down in the 1.20 range. Basically keep everything tight. ie: clutch packs, and he explains how to check them, extend the bumper stops so the half shafts will stay straight, checking u-joints, and his car used to eat those alive.
One other thing I want to share with you. Back when mine was stock other then a 3.54 dana 36 from zip products, and a 3000 stall yank converter. I could pull 1.70 60ft. on mich. pilot tires.
However, I broke one of the bearing caps.... One of the difference in the D44 and the D36 is, the D44 has a support that sets against the bearing caps to prevent movement. The D36 does not.
Zip used to sell a replacement batwing with a support welded in. But I no longer see it on their web site.
I feel sure, a person with your talents could make it up with ease.
Even with a dana D44 I have broke at least 5 over the years. But I believe it is mostly my fault for not keeping up maintenance ie: clutch packs wore out, u-joints breaking, etc.
And last but not least. Heating up the tires with one not as wet at the other.
07-03-2019, 06:00 PM
#40
Drifting
KyleF = Negative Nancy
GTFO of here with all your personal definitions of what a LS swap is. I still haven't figured out why you are so hung up on 30+ year old beater cars having to have functional stock gauges, functional cruise and functional A/C.
GTFO of here with all your personal definitions of what a LS swap is. I still haven't figured out why you are so hung up on 30+ year old beater cars having to have functional stock gauges, functional cruise and functional A/C.
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slow_zo6 (07-03-2019)