DYno Results for 406.....Coupled with MAF test.
05-22-2003, 09:37 AM
#1
Former Vendor
Thread Starter
DYno Results for 406.....Coupled with MAF test.
Well guys it was a long and torturous trip down there. The directions to the place were a little hosed up, but we finally got there after some road rage. :crazy: :lol:
We got there and Dennis was all smiles as we pulled in, suspecting that us country boys got lost in the city. Jim Cummings, AKA-85vette was also there to see how the car ran. Armed with his video camera and with ours you should expect to see some videos later this afternoon or tonight. I did not want to keep you all waiting as I know some of you are anxiously awaiting.
We loaded the car onto the Mustang Dyno after waking up the entire neighborhood from with the open headers. WOW was it loud. The building was a short 1 strory garage, and the hood would not open all the way, hence the reason for the little race tires in my fender wells to keep air flowing. I was a little disapointed that the shop did not have any real decent provisions for hooking the WB02 into my header collector. After several attempts with it just blowing out, and the time getting late I said heck with it. I knew the tune was flatline as far as AFR so all I needed to do is make global changes, then if an area improved and another declined, make the necessary RPM specific changes while trying something else in a different area. Unfortunate, but like I said I was confident in the tune being real close, and Dennis made up for it in hospitality. Real nice guy!
So once we were all strapped on, most everyone fitted with ear plugs except me...... :rolleyes: (what did you say? :confused: :jester ) we did the calibration stuff. And were ready to hammer on it. I double checked all my guages and gave him the :thumbs:
We ran several runs, 4 to be exact. But before I give you the results I would like to take a moment and explain the experiment we were doing in regards to the MAF meter that some of you may have missed yesterday before I left.
Here is the scoop. The MAF meter has had stigmatizm that you could not make over 450 crank HP on a motor without some power adder. ie SC/Turbo/Nitrous. So we proposed to get a vacumm gage and measure the plenum during WOT runs. If there is a restriction from the plenum to the front of the engine then you would see a vacuum being pulled. Others have used this method to find there TB were inadequte etc. We hoped to find out if we had a restriction on this bigger cube engine and then if there was a vac, then more testing would need to be performed to identify the exact cause, but lets take it one step at a time. I have been preaching that the MAF is not a restriction, so I put my neck on the chopping block, and said I would do the test. We videod the vac gage while I went from part throttle ~65-70MPH on the dyno to WOT. The gage read vac as expected at part throttle, but as soon as I nailed the throttle, the guage when to 0 and held for the entire run! Never came up to a reading. I am taking my dads word for it, since he was filming the gage while we did the tests. I will show the videos like I said later tonight or this afternoon.
So I guess we can conclude that there is not a restriction in my air intact track. But now how much power is this thing making? If its only putting out 320 HP then sure the MAF could handle it.....lets take a look.
We ran some test runs, to see where I should take the power to. I guess I sorta pussed out here and cut the RPM short, as it looked like the graphs were starting to flatten off a little, dennis thought there was more in it, but being open exhaust and in a such a small building, it sounded like your killing your engine, so I kept the Rs down around 5400.....I know, I know. :D
Well there are some other graphs, but here are 2 that I have to use a digi cam, my scanner is not hooked up at home, and we only got back at ~2am...so these will have to suffice.
This is the first graph, the tune I came with to the shop:
Can you say HOLY CHIT? :thumbs: :rofl: Dennis the dyno operator just about crapped his pants, I think he was the most excited out of all us. With that run I shattered every record they had there at the speed shop for dyno runned cars. :D He couldn't get over how much torque that thing was making and it only went down about 65-70 ft/lbs through the entire RPM range! Guess that is why I can totally miss 2nd gear and still only be off 2 tenths in my 1/4 ET and down 4 MPH :crazy: I keep saying the thing feels like a runaway freight train going down the side of a mountain even as I go through the end traps. I swear it pulls as hard at the end as it does at the beginning.
OK, so I quickly decided after that I would add more fuel and see what happens. I bumped the entire range up about 2.5% from about 2500 Rpm +. The graphs for torque jumped some 26 ft/lbs and I gianed about 3.4 HP so it was liking the added fuel. :p:
Here is that graph.
Not too shabby I would say! Lets add some more fuel...I wanted to add as much as I could and still make power, since I was about 12.8 when I started so I wanted to keep the valves etc cool as possible with the unburned fuel. So I was pleased to see that I could add fuel and the gains were still coming. So much for the 24# injectors being static at 4200 RPM as some said they were :rolleyes:
I went again on the dyno and this time added some 2% more. This time the HP stayed right at 437.0@5150 RPM, and torque dropped down to 501.1 @3400. So I decided I had pretty much passed the sweet spot. And I said one more. I backed it back down 1 % and still it was less than the 437/536 number so moved it back to there and left the fuel alone. I was very pleased with the cars results and we all headed outside to clear our heads. My ears were ringing so bad, hell they still feel plugged :eek: Dennis the dyno guy said that is the closest anyone has ever hit a tune, first time to a dyno after a buildup and shook my hand saying you smashed every record we have had here for a while (held by a modded VIPER .......Go vettes!. He said Mike would change the Website to reflect the new results asap. Kinda cool I suppose. He said, but you have to run 1 more if you want them all. The 1/4 mile. I said ahhhh, and he seemed a little disappoints alone with some others, so I said alllllright fire it up! I climbed back in it and once I was in it I asked, YOU SURE this thing isn't going to some off that damn machine. Dennis starting thinking and seemed a little concerned all of a sudden that maybe it wasn't a good idea. But I said **** on it lets do it. He smiled and said, whats the worst that could happen, you come off at 120+ MPH :crazy: :lol:
So I hammered through the gears at WOT! Kindof a weird feeling, when you can't feel the forces and your not going anywhere. :skep: I went till he waved his hand to stop and when the rollers stopped and the car was off, he said well you got it. The computer said a measly 11.80@125, good enough for the record, but far from reality. It was fun anyways. I guess there was one other test you could do...0-60MPH, but it was getting late and I wanted to get back on the road.
So in the end, I guess there are a few things to be said that are pretty undeniable now with the track times and dyno results.
1. MAF can make a bunch of power effectively without the assistance of any power adders. Where that ceiling is at, I guess someone with a bigger motor than me is going to have to figure that out. But upto this amound of power, there is no way that MAF is holding anyone back. I am going to say it. Anyone claiming it is, is an idiot and is just ignoring facts.
2. 24# injectors are plently big enough to support this kind of power effectively, as seen when I made the increase in AFR %. You don't pick up HP and tq when your out of fuel. And HP doesn't go from 400 up to 437, 4200RPM+ when your static on injector and RPM is increasing and cycle time for the injectors are getting shorter and shorter. Are they close to being maxed out, probably, but they are probably a more efficient spray stream etc where they are at now, than 36# injectors at 60% duty cycle.
3. I am a happy camper :hurray: :hurray: :party:
[Modified by ski_dwn_it, 9:50 AM 5/22/2003]
We got there and Dennis was all smiles as we pulled in, suspecting that us country boys got lost in the city. Jim Cummings, AKA-85vette was also there to see how the car ran. Armed with his video camera and with ours you should expect to see some videos later this afternoon or tonight. I did not want to keep you all waiting as I know some of you are anxiously awaiting.
We loaded the car onto the Mustang Dyno after waking up the entire neighborhood from with the open headers. WOW was it loud. The building was a short 1 strory garage, and the hood would not open all the way, hence the reason for the little race tires in my fender wells to keep air flowing. I was a little disapointed that the shop did not have any real decent provisions for hooking the WB02 into my header collector. After several attempts with it just blowing out, and the time getting late I said heck with it. I knew the tune was flatline as far as AFR so all I needed to do is make global changes, then if an area improved and another declined, make the necessary RPM specific changes while trying something else in a different area. Unfortunate, but like I said I was confident in the tune being real close, and Dennis made up for it in hospitality. Real nice guy!
So once we were all strapped on, most everyone fitted with ear plugs except me...... :rolleyes: (what did you say? :confused: :jester ) we did the calibration stuff. And were ready to hammer on it. I double checked all my guages and gave him the :thumbs:
We ran several runs, 4 to be exact. But before I give you the results I would like to take a moment and explain the experiment we were doing in regards to the MAF meter that some of you may have missed yesterday before I left.
Here is the scoop. The MAF meter has had stigmatizm that you could not make over 450 crank HP on a motor without some power adder. ie SC/Turbo/Nitrous. So we proposed to get a vacumm gage and measure the plenum during WOT runs. If there is a restriction from the plenum to the front of the engine then you would see a vacuum being pulled. Others have used this method to find there TB were inadequte etc. We hoped to find out if we had a restriction on this bigger cube engine and then if there was a vac, then more testing would need to be performed to identify the exact cause, but lets take it one step at a time. I have been preaching that the MAF is not a restriction, so I put my neck on the chopping block, and said I would do the test. We videod the vac gage while I went from part throttle ~65-70MPH on the dyno to WOT. The gage read vac as expected at part throttle, but as soon as I nailed the throttle, the guage when to 0 and held for the entire run! Never came up to a reading. I am taking my dads word for it, since he was filming the gage while we did the tests. I will show the videos like I said later tonight or this afternoon.
So I guess we can conclude that there is not a restriction in my air intact track. But now how much power is this thing making? If its only putting out 320 HP then sure the MAF could handle it.....lets take a look.
We ran some test runs, to see where I should take the power to. I guess I sorta pussed out here and cut the RPM short, as it looked like the graphs were starting to flatten off a little, dennis thought there was more in it, but being open exhaust and in a such a small building, it sounded like your killing your engine, so I kept the Rs down around 5400.....I know, I know. :D
Well there are some other graphs, but here are 2 that I have to use a digi cam, my scanner is not hooked up at home, and we only got back at ~2am...so these will have to suffice.
This is the first graph, the tune I came with to the shop:
Can you say HOLY CHIT? :thumbs: :rofl: Dennis the dyno operator just about crapped his pants, I think he was the most excited out of all us. With that run I shattered every record they had there at the speed shop for dyno runned cars. :D He couldn't get over how much torque that thing was making and it only went down about 65-70 ft/lbs through the entire RPM range! Guess that is why I can totally miss 2nd gear and still only be off 2 tenths in my 1/4 ET and down 4 MPH :crazy: I keep saying the thing feels like a runaway freight train going down the side of a mountain even as I go through the end traps. I swear it pulls as hard at the end as it does at the beginning.
OK, so I quickly decided after that I would add more fuel and see what happens. I bumped the entire range up about 2.5% from about 2500 Rpm +. The graphs for torque jumped some 26 ft/lbs and I gianed about 3.4 HP so it was liking the added fuel. :p:
Here is that graph.
Not too shabby I would say! Lets add some more fuel...I wanted to add as much as I could and still make power, since I was about 12.8 when I started so I wanted to keep the valves etc cool as possible with the unburned fuel. So I was pleased to see that I could add fuel and the gains were still coming. So much for the 24# injectors being static at 4200 RPM as some said they were :rolleyes:
I went again on the dyno and this time added some 2% more. This time the HP stayed right at 437.0@5150 RPM, and torque dropped down to 501.1 @3400. So I decided I had pretty much passed the sweet spot. And I said one more. I backed it back down 1 % and still it was less than the 437/536 number so moved it back to there and left the fuel alone. I was very pleased with the cars results and we all headed outside to clear our heads. My ears were ringing so bad, hell they still feel plugged :eek: Dennis the dyno guy said that is the closest anyone has ever hit a tune, first time to a dyno after a buildup and shook my hand saying you smashed every record we have had here for a while (held by a modded VIPER .......Go vettes!. He said Mike would change the Website to reflect the new results asap. Kinda cool I suppose. He said, but you have to run 1 more if you want them all. The 1/4 mile. I said ahhhh, and he seemed a little disappoints alone with some others, so I said alllllright fire it up! I climbed back in it and once I was in it I asked, YOU SURE this thing isn't going to some off that damn machine. Dennis starting thinking and seemed a little concerned all of a sudden that maybe it wasn't a good idea. But I said **** on it lets do it. He smiled and said, whats the worst that could happen, you come off at 120+ MPH :crazy: :lol:
So I hammered through the gears at WOT! Kindof a weird feeling, when you can't feel the forces and your not going anywhere. :skep: I went till he waved his hand to stop and when the rollers stopped and the car was off, he said well you got it. The computer said a measly 11.80@125, good enough for the record, but far from reality. It was fun anyways. I guess there was one other test you could do...0-60MPH, but it was getting late and I wanted to get back on the road.
So in the end, I guess there are a few things to be said that are pretty undeniable now with the track times and dyno results.
1. MAF can make a bunch of power effectively without the assistance of any power adders. Where that ceiling is at, I guess someone with a bigger motor than me is going to have to figure that out. But upto this amound of power, there is no way that MAF is holding anyone back. I am going to say it. Anyone claiming it is, is an idiot and is just ignoring facts.
2. 24# injectors are plently big enough to support this kind of power effectively, as seen when I made the increase in AFR %. You don't pick up HP and tq when your out of fuel. And HP doesn't go from 400 up to 437, 4200RPM+ when your static on injector and RPM is increasing and cycle time for the injectors are getting shorter and shorter. Are they close to being maxed out, probably, but they are probably a more efficient spray stream etc where they are at now, than 36# injectors at 60% duty cycle.
3. I am a happy camper :hurray: :hurray: :party:
[Modified by ski_dwn_it, 9:50 AM 5/22/2003]
05-22-2003, 10:14 AM
#2
Le Mans Master
Re: DYno Results for 406.....Coupled with MAF test. (ski_dwn_it)
Great report Jesse. Good numbers too, and you dont have to spin it much to make power. TQ max at under 3500 and HP peak at under 5500. Interesting that the cam probably wants to peak much higher, where the SR restricts flow. In theroy, they seem like a mismatch, but work pretty good in reality. I think the larger cams gives air more time to funnel thru the SR to fill the 406.
What a friggin stump puller.
It sounds like you didn't lock your converter which sorta overstates you low end torque, but hurts your high end HP. In any event, in good air, you gotta be close. Heck you just picked up 35 ftlbs of torque.
For what it's worth, i know of 2 guys with big inch engines that ran SRs with MAFs and then speed density systems. One guy says he picked up 3 tenths loosing the MAF, which i find hard to believe unless there was improved tuning involved and the other guy said it was worth almost nothing. The second guy i know a little better and he had his combo tuned pretty good with the MAF and eventually got his 10 sec time slip.
[Modified by ralph, 10:18 AM 5/22/2003]
What a friggin stump puller.
It sounds like you didn't lock your converter which sorta overstates you low end torque, but hurts your high end HP. In any event, in good air, you gotta be close. Heck you just picked up 35 ftlbs of torque.
For what it's worth, i know of 2 guys with big inch engines that ran SRs with MAFs and then speed density systems. One guy says he picked up 3 tenths loosing the MAF, which i find hard to believe unless there was improved tuning involved and the other guy said it was worth almost nothing. The second guy i know a little better and he had his combo tuned pretty good with the MAF and eventually got his 10 sec time slip.
[Modified by ralph, 10:18 AM 5/22/2003]
05-22-2003, 10:19 AM
#3
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Re: DYno Results for 406.....Coupled with MAF test. (ski_dwn_it)
CRIPES!!
Those #s are awesome!
And the torque and hp curves are SO FLAT! :eek:
Congrats Jesse!! :thumbs:
[Modified by Ragtop89, 9:20 AM 5/22/2003]
Those #s are awesome!
And the torque and hp curves are SO FLAT! :eek:
Congrats Jesse!! :thumbs:
[Modified by Ragtop89, 9:20 AM 5/22/2003]
05-22-2003, 10:33 AM
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Re: DYno Results for 406.....Coupled with MAF test. (ski_dwn_it)
Very impressive !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :cheers:
05-22-2003, 10:54 AM
#6
Former Vendor
Thread Starter
Re: DYno Results for 406.....Coupled with MAF test. (ralph)
Ralph,
Yeah I was pretty pleased with the results and honestly was hoping for the MAF to a restriction. That would have been easy HP to pick up.
I did not lock my converter...but I could feel it lock on the dyno in second gear, at least that is what it felt like. Unless if was the dyno doing something.
I think the next time to the track I am going to try to keep my converter from locking, and see how it effect the run....what is your take on that? Mine is a single disk, and everything I read says you will ruin them with that much power and locking them.
All in all, I am very pleased at the results of the car. And also that I had a hand in doing every aspect of the car. Corky was definately the brains behind the setup, and credit must go to him for figuring it out.
I think that added torque might get me down where I need to be for the launches 1.4x to get me in the 10s. I am very confident that the power is there to do it, I just need to nail the running technique down. I am thinking maybe I need to lower my shift points to around 5100, what would you do?
Thanks all for the comments...Keep them coming!
:cheers: :cheers:
Yeah I was pretty pleased with the results and honestly was hoping for the MAF to a restriction. That would have been easy HP to pick up.
I did not lock my converter...but I could feel it lock on the dyno in second gear, at least that is what it felt like. Unless if was the dyno doing something.
I think the next time to the track I am going to try to keep my converter from locking, and see how it effect the run....what is your take on that? Mine is a single disk, and everything I read says you will ruin them with that much power and locking them.
All in all, I am very pleased at the results of the car. And also that I had a hand in doing every aspect of the car. Corky was definately the brains behind the setup, and credit must go to him for figuring it out.
I think that added torque might get me down where I need to be for the launches 1.4x to get me in the 10s. I am very confident that the power is there to do it, I just need to nail the running technique down. I am thinking maybe I need to lower my shift points to around 5100, what would you do?
Thanks all for the comments...Keep them coming!
:cheers: :cheers:
05-22-2003, 11:00 AM
#7
Melting Slicks
Re: DYno Results for 406.....Coupled with MAF test. (ski_dwn_it)
Excellent experiment. Great numbers. Looks like you're right at 500HP at the flywheel!
Looks like I guessed wrong (my post on the other thread guessed at least a little vacuum).
Does your MAF have the screens still in place? Any porting on it, etc?
:cheers:
Looks like I guessed wrong (my post on the other thread guessed at least a little vacuum).
Does your MAF have the screens still in place? Any porting on it, etc?
:cheers:
05-22-2003, 11:20 AM
#8
Former Vendor
Thread Starter
Re: DYno Results for 406.....Coupled with MAF test. (John Row)
John,
Believe me your not alone in that thinking :lol: Nothing wrong with voicing an opinion, that is what makes this stuff fun....nobody really does know, and each setup is unique.
As for the MAF, I ported it out myself. I pulled the screens out a while ago, then last summer I cut the fins out of it with a hack saw! :crazy: Its pretty crude looking, but effective....maybe the roughness of it is smoothing the air :jester
Believe me your not alone in that thinking :lol: Nothing wrong with voicing an opinion, that is what makes this stuff fun....nobody really does know, and each setup is unique.
As for the MAF, I ported it out myself. I pulled the screens out a while ago, then last summer I cut the fins out of it with a hack saw! :crazy: Its pretty crude looking, but effective....maybe the roughness of it is smoothing the air :jester
05-22-2003, 11:26 AM
#9
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Re: DYno Results for 406.....Coupled with MAF test. (ski_dwn_it)
Great numbers. Looking foward to the vids. I'am in agreement with you on the smaller injectors. A lot of the experts suggested swapping the 22's for the 30's.
05-22-2003, 11:27 AM
#10
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St. Jude Donor '03-'04-'05-'06-'07-'08-'09-'10-'11-'12-'13-'14-'15-'16-'17-'18-'19-'20-'21-'22
'23-'24
Re: DYno Results for 406.....Coupled with MAF test. (ski_dwn_it)
Congrats Jesse, looks like you might be there with the fuel adjustment! :cheers:
God, I just love that torque curve!!
God, I just love that torque curve!!
05-22-2003, 11:50 AM
#12
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Re: DYno Results for 406.....Coupled with MAF test. (ski_dwn_it)
Gawd!!! Thanks for saving the rest of us a lot of time and $$$. At least we know our for sure that our MAF cars have the ability to scare the crapola out of A LOT of people. Thanks and awesome numbers!
:thumbs:
:thumbs:
05-22-2003, 12:13 PM
#13
Le Mans Master
Re: DYno Results for 406.....Coupled with MAF test. (VetteNoob)
Jesse, my converter has been locking at about 90mph in drive for 5 years and i just had the converter rebuilt. The guy told me everything looked fine....of course i aint making the same power as you either. Unplugging the converter lockup would be an interesting test, that i also wanted to try. But i almost never get to test and tune, so i just leave it alone. My guess is you would loose a little mph with very little effect on your ETs. now if you hads a non-lockup converter, then i'd expect quicker 60's and better ETs.
05-22-2003, 12:34 PM
#14
Former Vendor
Thread Starter
Re: DYno Results for 406.....Coupled with MAF test. (ralph)
Hmmm interesting ......
There probably went another 700 bucks...thanks Ralph :jester
There probably went another 700 bucks...thanks Ralph :jester
05-22-2003, 01:35 PM
#17
Former Vendor
Thread Starter
Re: DYno Results for 406.....Coupled with MAF test. (corvette0096)
That should settles the debate on Third gen over the MAF. :lol:
"gruntasouras" :lolg: :lolg: :lolg:
05-22-2003, 02:55 PM
#18
Drifting
Re: DYno Results for 406.....Coupled with MAF test. (ski_dwn_it)
Thanks for sharing Jesse. I taken a ride in cars w/ flat TW curves before. It is pretty interesting what you can do w/ those.
If memory serves me right, the MAF limit statment comes for the tips book from TPIS,... many years back. Either that or it is related to that.
I gather you were adjusting the whole fuel curve by playing w/ the Inj Constant? The fuel pressure is stock? 48psi?
If memory serves me right, the MAF limit statment comes for the tips book from TPIS,... many years back. Either that or it is related to that.
I gather you were adjusting the whole fuel curve by playing w/ the Inj Constant? The fuel pressure is stock? 48psi?
05-22-2003, 04:06 PM
#20
Tech Contributor
Re: DYno Results for 406.....Coupled with MAF test. (ski_dwn_it)
So much for the 24# injectors being static at 4200 RPM as some said they were
Re: the injectors...If you're running higher than stock fuel pressure the injectors are flowing more than 24#.
Duty cycle is a function of rpm, not just hp. 20mSec @ 6000 rpm is 100% duty cycle.
