ZR1 question
#21
Race Director
I have to admit when I test drove the ZR1 I thought "Holy S@#$...were have I been. I have owned 5 vettes in the past and had no idea these cars are this strong." It kinda made me feel like a corvette dumb a$$. Here I have tons of mags, books and have driven many cars, but never a ZR1. I have learned over the years to buy a car using my "smile per mile meter". I would have to admit it was pegging a (9.5). I am going for the Z...having not driven a callaway, I hope I made the right choice. I hope I am in the right ballpark for price, but then again, what is anything really worth?
Sounds like you are headed for KOTH ownership.
http://zr1netregistry.com/forum/index.php?
#22
Le Mans Master
Have you asked for opinions over on the Callaway forum? There are a few owners there of Z's and B2K's.
Last edited by Aurora40; 01-26-2008 at 01:25 PM.
#23
Team Owner
Member Since: May 2001
Location: ...tearing up the highways, one state at a time™®©
Posts: 31,552
Received 2,093 Likes
on
1,073 Posts
Several years ago, I had the same decision, Callaway or Z. Nothing against the Callaway, but in my opinion, it's not in the same league. I have never regreted choosing the Z, and I've made the choice a couple of times since. Basically, in my mind, the Callaway is a modified C4. The ZR-1 stands apart.
It is safe to say that the Callaway Twin Turbo *helped* the ZR1 along Afterall, it was Dave Mclellan (the Corvette Chief Engineer at the time) who called Callaway, asking that company to take over Chevrolets (failed) turbo program - Chevy kept working on the other programs and the ZR1 came from that
#24
Team Owner
Member Since: May 2001
Location: ...tearing up the highways, one state at a time™®©
Posts: 31,552
Received 2,093 Likes
on
1,073 Posts
I think the ZR-1 is less maintenance and of course you have the LT-5.
The Callaway is an amazing car and the engine looks awesome. The Callaway is a more collectible car however I feel its higher maintenance.
Talk to SurfnSun (Josh) he loved his car and is going to get another. Also ask him about the costs of ownership, I believe he sunk alot of $ into his car but then again, his car was wicked fast so it all works out in the end.
The Callaway is an amazing car and the engine looks awesome. The Callaway is a more collectible car however I feel its higher maintenance.
Talk to SurfnSun (Josh) he loved his car and is going to get another. Also ask him about the costs of ownership, I believe he sunk alot of $ into his car but then again, his car was wicked fast so it all works out in the end.
SurnSun's car had bill, because of his dyno time. That had NOTHING to do with it functioning. He was on a quest for more power and found it. In a BIG WAY! w/ the B2K
Show me a ZR1 owner who drives their car EVERY DAY and I will find a Callaway owner who has done the same (by percentage of production) EITHER could be driven every day yet sadly, neither is.
Ask the same question in the Callaway Forum and see what kind of answers you get
http://www.corvetteactioncenter.com/...play.php?f=134
#25
Race Director
Not uniformed, I researched Callaways alot , and I well remember when it was the only choice when you wanted awesome performance. "Basically, in my mind, the Callaway is a modified C4", I stand by that statement. It is a.) my opinion, but it also happens to be true..If you think that denigrates Callaway, that's your problem.
#26
Le Mans Master
I don't think anyone in this thread was ripping on the Callaway. But your posts sound as if you have to defend it from us. He asked for opinions in a ZR-1 forum, it's not surprising most would say "get the ZR-1"...
Last edited by Aurora40; 01-27-2008 at 11:21 PM.
#27
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
Member Since: May 2004
Location: NC
Posts: 916
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
O.K. brothers, I didn't want to cause problems. But I finally did it and picked her up today. 100 miles of pure joy all the way home. I know my personality and realize I wouldn't drive the callaway to work,ect like I will the ZR1. From all of everyones posts on all the forums I get the idea that the callaways are more of a high maint. supermodel and the ZR1 is an all american girl. I plan on getting the upgrade chip and the hurst shifter and should be good to go. By the way, if I had more room, I would also buy the supermodel.
#28
Racer
Member Since: Aug 2006
Location: Phoenix Arizona
Posts: 381
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
O.K. brothers, I didn't want to cause problems. But I finally did it and picked her up today. 100 miles of pure joy all the way home. I know my personality and realize I wouldn't drive the callaway to work,ect like I will the ZR1. From all of everyones posts on all the forums I get the idea that the callaways are more of a high maint. supermodel and the ZR1 is an all american girl. I plan on getting the upgrade chip and the hurst shifter and should be good to go. By the way, if I had more room, I would also buy the supermodel.
#30
Burning Brakes
Member Since: Dec 1999
Location: I've been going to this school for 7 years, I'm no dummy!
Posts: 1,052
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
#31
...so uninformed. With we had a book like Heart of the Beast to better help set the record straight
It is safe to say that the Callaway Twin Turbo *helped* the ZR1 along Afterall, it was Dave Mclellan (the Corvette Chief Engineer at the time) who called Callaway, asking that company to take over Chevrolets (failed) turbo program - Chevy kept working on the other programs and the ZR1 came from that
It is safe to say that the Callaway Twin Turbo *helped* the ZR1 along Afterall, it was Dave Mclellan (the Corvette Chief Engineer at the time) who called Callaway, asking that company to take over Chevrolets (failed) turbo program - Chevy kept working on the other programs and the ZR1 came from that
...so uninformed, yes indeed.
#32
Says Callaway, GM, and any reference book you want to bring to the table. Turbo cars are harder on spark plugs and oil requiring more frequent spark plug/oil changes than N/A cars. The spark plug service on my Zr1 is recommended at 100K miles and oil changes are at 7500 miles for normal driving, sooner for severe usage as indicated by the oil life monitor.
#33
Team Owner
Member Since: May 2001
Location: ...tearing up the highways, one state at a time™®©
Posts: 31,552
Received 2,093 Likes
on
1,073 Posts
Says Callaway, GM, and any reference book you want to bring to the table. Turbo cars are harder on spark plugs and oil requiring more frequent spark plug/oil changes than N/A cars. The spark plug service on my Zr1 is recommended at 100K miles and oil changes are at 7500 miles for normal driving, sooner for severe usage as indicated by the oil life monitor.
Since you clearly have no idea what you are talking about, please do not use generalizations when trying to make your point(s).
#34
Team Owner
Member Since: May 2001
Location: ...tearing up the highways, one state at a time™®©
Posts: 31,552
Received 2,093 Likes
on
1,073 Posts
They are both amazing cars and I see your point on the audience. The ZR1 is not without flaws. Anyone who cannot see this, is clouded by the hype.
#36
Le Mans Master
Bob, I know you are smarter than what your original post said - you have done your homework and playing up the the ZR1 crowd here, isn't cool.
They are both amazing cars and I see your point on the audience. The ZR1 is not without flaws. Anyone who cannot see this, is clouded by the hype.
They are both amazing cars and I see your point on the audience. The ZR1 is not without flaws. Anyone who cannot see this, is clouded by the hype.
However, my opinion is that the ZR-1 would be better suited to frequent use, especially frequent hard use. It no longer matters to the OP, as he's already bought a car, but since my opinion is in question, here's some of the criteria that went into forming it.
- There are many ZR-1's with over 100,000 miles, and actually a fair number with over 200,000 miles. I've never seen anyone on CAC, or at any of the few events I've been to, or B2k's for sale, that had over 100,000 miles. I think maybe there was once an '87 for sale with over 100k, though I can't recall for sure. This does not mean a B2K can't go for hundreds of thousands of miles, but it would be less "risk" as a buyer if there had been some that had.
- There are three B2K cars I know of that put the factory rods through the block, members of CAC. Presumably there are more as it's a small subset of cars. I've never heard of any LT5's having that type of mechanical failure. Again, that doesn't mean all the cars will do that, but it to me indicates more risk.
- There are two '87s that I know of that caught fire. One was posted about on the CAC, and one was owned by the gentleman who's '90 B2K I was considering buying. He bought a '90 after his '87 burned to the ground in his driveway. Luckily it was not in his garage at the time. Certainly it doesn't mean all '87s will burn to the ground. But I found it a concern. It would be less concerning if the failure mode that caused it was known and some preventative measure or replacement part addressed that. Perhaps there is, I'm just not aware of it. For me, that plus the lower power level, made the '87s pretty undesirable.
One other thing that always seemed a little iffy to me was the microfueler. It seems there are a few people who have had lots of trouble with it. I imagine turning a dry manifold into a wet one doesn't help. But it seems like some people have had pretty inconsistent fueling with the Callaway setup and had to go aftermarket. I see this as a risk that the car could lean out too much and cause damage. The ZR-1 can have a similar problem with failed secondary injectors, a fairly common problem now on the early cars. But the difference is the way the whole system is integrated. The ZR-1 can recognize this lean condition and will disable the secondary ports quickly to prevent damage. The Callaway system doesn't self-preserve like that.
A minor point, the OP asked about daily driving. Possibly fuel economy is of some concern, the ZR-1 was rated at 17/25 while the B2K was rated at 14/21. Personally I wouldn't give a crap about that. Driving a twin-turbo Corvette would be worth it at twice the fuel consumption.
So again, to me, in my opinion, if I were going to drive the hell out of a car often, there is less risk in going with an LT5 than a B2K. That does not mean that a B2K couldn't or wouldn't perform just fine in such a situation. And the purchase of a ZR-1 is a risk. But you have to manage it to a point you are comfortable with. The absolute worst case is you need to buy a new engine. You could argue the B2K would be cheaper to replace the engine in than the LT5, though maybe not if you wanted to keep it "Callaway".
I have no doubts that both cars would be highly enjoyable, and that obviously most Callaway owners enjoy their cars for a long time without any problems. And I certainly don't mean to suggest that the odds are that a B2K would fail if constantly beat on. I'm saying to me there is a higher risk. Maybe that means a 5% risk vs a 2%, or a .005% vs a .002%. I've no idea. Only an opinion. As I'd said earlier, seeing B2K's get driven hard for many miles would go a long way towards changing my opinion. Plus seeing those cars driven is just plain cool.
I imagine I'm just opening a can of worms here, but I guess it wouldn't be the first time. I feel like I needed to explain my opinion a bit more thoroughly though.
Last edited by Aurora40; 01-28-2008 at 11:02 AM.
#37
Le Mans Master
I can't say I've ever maintained a B2K... But my guess is that sort of stuff would be a wash. It seems like some people "find" performance in their B2K by replacing a lot of the hoses and such. ZR-1's do it by replacing injectors and fixing the vacuum system. They both have these "age" related issues, and once fixed they really are not an issue again. Getting a car where the previous owner was proactive about this stuff is a plus for both cars.
For maintenance, things like oil changes are probably similar, though the Callaway won't puke oil all over the place if you change the filter right after driving it, and you can pre-fill the filter prior to installation. Spark plugs are probably harder on the B2K, but wires are harder on the LT5. Coolant changes are probably exactly the same. B2K's have oil and coolant lines to the turbos that can leak. LT5's have the oil lines to the oil cooler that can leak.
You could view removing the intercoolers as a pain before doing some maintenance. The same could be said for removing the intake plenum on the Z. I suspect with both once you've done it once or twice it's not a big deal.
Really, that stuff seems like a wash. They both have their quirks. Thankfully they both also have a great owner base there to help.
For maintenance, things like oil changes are probably similar, though the Callaway won't puke oil all over the place if you change the filter right after driving it, and you can pre-fill the filter prior to installation. Spark plugs are probably harder on the B2K, but wires are harder on the LT5. Coolant changes are probably exactly the same. B2K's have oil and coolant lines to the turbos that can leak. LT5's have the oil lines to the oil cooler that can leak.
You could view removing the intercoolers as a pain before doing some maintenance. The same could be said for removing the intake plenum on the Z. I suspect with both once you've done it once or twice it's not a big deal.
Really, that stuff seems like a wash. They both have their quirks. Thankfully they both also have a great owner base there to help.
#38
Team Owner
Member Since: May 2001
Location: ...tearing up the highways, one state at a time™®©
Posts: 31,552
Received 2,093 Likes
on
1,073 Posts
I'm not sure what you mean by my post being "not cool"? I don't think I'm playing anything up, I was giving my opinion I imagine I'm just opening a can of worms here, but I guess it wouldn't be the first time. I feel like I needed to explain my opinion a bit more thoroughly though.
Bob, thank you for offering your opinion in great detail. The simple fact you have taken the time to do this certainly is admirable however I would like to point out the follwing:
There are Callaways with over 100k mi on them I know of over a dozen, just off the top of my head. One car that is near 100k, is driven most days, and the owner has NEVER had an issue. It is his second "driven" Callaway.
In my post earlier, I bet the percentage of cars driven is closer to equal than you think. There was over 10 times the ZR1s made and look how many of those are trailer queens, seldom driven.
Factor in the ZR1 issues such as the timing chains and the famed coil packs (which you have to pull the plenum), and some get scared away quickly from ZR1 ownership. The stigma of GM pulling away their support has furthered the point.
It sounds like the O/P got the car they wanted, which is great! As I have said before, each car is wonderful. They are each legendary and both are misunderstood by most
#39
Le Mans Master
http://zr1netregistry.com/ZR1_highmileage.htm
In my post earlier, I bet the percentage of cars driven is closer to equal than you think. There was over 10 times the ZR1s made and look how many of those are trailer queens, seldom driven.
Factor in the ZR1 issues such as the timing chains and the famed coil packs (which you have to pull the plenum), and some get scared away quickly from ZR1 ownership. The stigma of GM pulling away their support has furthered the point.
Factor in the ZR1 issues such as the timing chains and the famed coil packs (which you have to pull the plenum), and some get scared away quickly from ZR1 ownership. The stigma of GM pulling away their support has furthered the point.
And certainly there's a stigma about the ZR-1 that if something breaks, you'll never find a new part, or never be able to afford it. While that sometimes is fairly true, the upshot is engine things rarely break. There is definitely an uninformed stereotype out there about the car, though. And I hope I am not contributing to one about the B2K's.