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Before and after X-pipe dyno results!

 
Old 09-19-2011, 11:54 AM
  #21  
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Originally Posted by 88BlackZ-51 View Post
This is what I found.


You don't have any restrictor plates. Having said that - the B+B muffler is quite restrictive regardless. Yours is the least restrictive version however.
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Old 09-19-2011, 11:58 AM
  #22  
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Rick just sell that system run some 3 in straights

The little womans buying me a Z when her house sells so who knows.

And it wont be stock!!


Lose one Z over a bitch then the next ones gonna replace it
Love it.
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Old 09-19-2011, 12:03 PM
  #23  
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Originally Posted by zr-1 guy View Post
I've had my car since 99 and i've met you a few times and been for a ride in your brothers car when it was still a 368, I remember the old days. and I agree that the time for big cubing these cars has passed, but there still are people who are modding them
Sup Kevin???? You remember our kamikaze run down the interstate outside of Carlisle? That sucker was tame compared to a big cube motor.

Today it is just so much easier to source a C6 Z06 and spend a couple bucks to have over 500 rwhp and it purrs like a kitten. I don't regret my decision to build the 415 because I've yet to see an LSx making 500 rwtq/585 rwhp and idle as smooth as mine and pull nicely in the low rpms and have ZERO issues with part throttle etc etc. But once you've tasted the sweet nectar of a solid twin turbo package it is hard to justify going for mega cubes on these motors (LT5 or LSx).

Honestly - I have said it before, and will say it again - we are currently living in the golden age of horsepower. This is IT! The base version of most sports cars have 400 hp, and lots have 500 hp. There are several exotics with 600+ hp and some are now giving 700 hp - and all with a factory warranty! The ZR1 is an absolute animal! Handling, power, brakes - all amazing. The Z06 is a track monster, and the grandsport is also AMAZING! What an age we live in!
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Old 09-19-2011, 12:05 PM
  #24  
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Originally Posted by cuisinartvette View Post
Rick just sell that system run some 3 in straights

The little womans buying me a Z when her house sells so who knows.

And it wont be stock!!


Lose one Z over a bitch then the next ones gonna replace it
Love it.
NOW WE'RE TALKING!!!! Ron is finally doing it right!!!
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Old 09-19-2011, 12:12 PM
  #25  
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Originally Posted by DDSLT5 View Post
Sup Kevin???? You remember our kamikaze run down the interstate outside of Carlisle? That sucker was tame compared to a big cube motor.

Today it is just so much easier to source a C6 Z06 and spend a couple bucks to have over 500 rwhp and it purrs like a kitten. I don't regret my decision to build the 415 because I've yet to see an LSx making 500 rwtq/585 rwhp and idle as smooth as mine and pull nicely in the low rpms and have ZERO issues with part throttle etc etc. But once you've tasted the sweet nectar of a solid twin turbo package it is hard to justify going for mega cubes on these motors (LT5 or LSx).

Honestly - I have said it before, and will say it again - we are currently living in the golden age of horsepower. This is IT! The base version of most sports cars have 400 hp, and lots have 500 hp. There are several exotics with 600+ hp and some are now giving 700 hp - and all with a factory warranty! The ZR1 is an absolute animal! Handling, power, brakes - all amazing. The Z06 is a track monster, and the grandsport is also AMAZING! What an age we live in!
totally agree, I ran the numbers and to get my car where I want it I'm looking at around $13,000 at Marc's. Hell I can buy another ZR-1 for that much, but before that i've got to replace the injectors....again and at that time I'm going to wire open the secondaries and get a chip to run on all 16 all the time. I almost was able to get away to come down to FL and help with gas/tires but things didn't line up, maybe next time.

When you look at the Z06/zr1/viper acr and realize these cars are running around the ring in times that were race car times a few years ago you really start to take stock of where we've come
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Old 09-19-2011, 12:19 PM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by Aurora40 View Post
Ehh, I think people aren't dropping as much coin on them, but that seems to result in some more interesting stuff happening. They seem to be getting more cost effective to do.

Now it looks like 430-450whp is possible for fairly cheap on a stock bottom end. Just some porting and reground cams. That's the same power as Ricky's 2+ year in the making 421ci build is putting down, and the LT5 would still be easy to tune and purr like a kitten.

It wasn't that long ago $20k in a 368 would be required for that sort of power.

Not knocking you Ricky, just remembering how you'd rip on Z's for being expensive and expensive/impossible to build up. It really seems to be changing. The cars are getting cheaper, and they are getting easier/cheaper to put into the mid 400's power-wise. Plus a ported stock displacement ZR-1 would still have good resale, while a big-cube gen 1 C4 won't.
Hp is nice, but Rick is making 470 rwtq. I've had a ride in his car, and it will hand a stock cube ZR-1 its *** all day long and twice on sunday.

Peak numbers are nice, but the torque for a 350 cid LT5 will be maxed out at around 350 rwtq (on a good day).

Furthermore - to get 450 rwhp out of a stock bottom end, you need to pull the heads, do a MAX porting job, go with some reground cams, port the intake and injector housings, throttle body etc etc. You talk like 450 rwhp is easy to do. Ask Pete - it isn't easy. It is miraculous off a 350 cid motor. 420 rwhp is WORK! This is still porting the heads/intake/etc etc on stock cams. To get to 430 rwhp, you need to invest in a single mass flywheel. We're talking about a LOT of money here. $10,000.00 for all this? Easy.

Now - let's switch to a C5: CAI, cam, headers and you've got 420 rwhp with ease. $2500-$3500 spent.

Like I said - porting the top end for 400 rwhp, yes, I can see it. Headers? Sure. More than that? You're either crazy, in love with the LT5, or more likely: a solid combination of both.
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Old 09-19-2011, 12:23 PM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by Aurora40 View Post
Ehh, I think people aren't dropping as much coin on them, but that seems to result in some more interesting stuff happening. They seem to be getting more cost effective to do.

Now it looks like 430-450whp is possible for fairly cheap on a stock bottom end. Just some porting and reground cams. That's the same power as Ricky's 2+ year in the making 421ci build is putting down, and the LT5 would still be easy to tune and purr like a kitten.

It wasn't that long ago $20k in a 368 would be required for that sort of power.

Not knocking you Ricky, just remembering how you'd rip on Z's for being expensive and expensive/impossible to build up. It really seems to be changing. The cars are getting cheaper, and they are getting easier/cheaper to put into the mid 400's power-wise. Plus a ported stock displacement ZR-1 would still have good resale, while a big-cube gen 1 C4 won't.
Wow Bobby boy.

But your forgot a very important word and that's called "torque".

I have a funny feeling these 450 rwhp you speak of don't make tq anywhere close to 470-480 rwtq. You forgot the other word Bob. Shame on you....

Last edited by 88BlackZ-51; 09-19-2011 at 04:49 PM.
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Old 09-21-2011, 01:44 AM
  #28  
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This is the way I look at it- I bought a 20 year old rich mans car and trying to make it keep up with new Corvettes. Although a 415 is never gonna have to worry about being spanked by a new Z06 your still looking at $30K to have LPE do the work. Its really hard to justify refinancing my house for just a motor. But on the other hand a 368 build that makes 430-450rwhp for somewhere in the relm of $13k is allot less painful to the pocket book. 450rwhp is very respectable and considering I've already done allot of the work myself it wont be like im starting off with a bone stock car. I've already done the top end porting myself and saw great gains just from that effort alone. I've already installed a Fidanza flywheel and put on a Spec stage 3+ clutch kit which just rocks by the way. A forced air intake with the open air temp sensor re routed right in the mouth of the forced air duct. So at least the porting should knock $1'000 off the price of a 368 build. And later on if I want more I can have it turned into a 385 ect. And then there's some non engine upgrades. 100% poly bushing kit was one of the best things I've ever done. Just a world of difference in handling. You save a ton of money when you do it yourself. That's for Damn sure. The amount of hp you want entirely depends on how fat your wallet is. That's just all there is to it.

Last edited by rhipsher; 09-21-2011 at 01:54 AM.
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Old 09-21-2011, 05:22 AM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by Aurora40 View Post
Ehh, I think people aren't dropping as much coin on them, but that seems to result in some more interesting stuff happening. They seem to be getting more cost effective to do.

Now it looks like 430-450whp is possible for fairly cheap on a stock bottom end. Just some porting and reground cams. That's the same power as Ricky's 2+ year in the making 421ci build is putting down, and the LT5 would still be easy to tune and purr like a kitten.

It wasn't that long ago $20k in a 368 would be required for that sort of power.

Not knocking you Ricky, just remembering how you'd rip on Z's for being expensive and expensive/impossible to build up. It really seems to be changing. The cars are getting cheaper, and they are getting easier/cheaper to put into the mid 400's power-wise. Plus a ported stock displacement ZR-1 would still have good resale, while a big-cube gen 1 C4 won't.


Stock bottom, DIY top end and head porting (modeled after the FBI paterns; aka Pete P n Marc Haibeck (see the Registry)), relieved, SW headers, 3" exhaust, SW X pipe, cams re-timed, and dyno tuned... Like you said Bob, purrs like a kitten...well maybe a BIG kitten!



P.
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Old 09-21-2011, 05:48 AM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by DDSLT5 View Post
Hp is nice, but Rick is making 470 rwtq. I've had a ride in his car, and it will hand a stock cube ZR-1 its *** all day long and twice on sunday.

Peak numbers are nice, but the torque for a 350 cid LT5 will be maxed out at around 350 rwtq (on a good day).

Furthermore - to get 450 rwhp out of a stock bottom end, you need to pull the heads, do a MAX porting job, go with some reground cams, port the intake and injector housings, throttle body etc etc. You talk like 450 rwhp is easy to do. Ask Pete - it isn't easy. It is miraculous off a 350 cid motor. 420 rwhp is WORK! This is still porting the heads/intake/etc etc on stock cams. To get to 430 rwhp, you need to invest in a single mass flywheel. We're talking about a LOT of money here. $10,000.00 for all this? Easy.

Now - let's switch to a C5: CAI, cam, headers and you've got 420 rwhp with ease. $2500-$3500 spent.

Like I said - porting the top end for 400 rwhp, yes, I can see it. Headers? Sure. More than that? You're either crazy, in love with the LT5, or more likely: a solid combination of both.
Well, building up LT5s to big cubes is NOT dead, and so many gear heads get their rocks off reading about peak numbers, where it's torque./power under the curve that kicks ****! The flatter torque curve gives the LT5 (according to Pete and Bob G (see the Registry)) perhaps a 40 hp equivalent advantage over some of the peaky LS rivals at the track.

The LT5 in stock form is highly under developed. Rarity makes them pricy to build up, but then comes AES out of Chicago, and suddenly the big cube LT5 price tag gets pulled in a bit.

"Peak is nice, but how long can you keep it there?" ... is what I like to ask folks. I've spoiled a few C6s afternoons by cruising up to 5k rpm in second - about the point where Mr "6" is thinking about another gear, and just nailing it...

Not disagreeing with anything you said, other than building the LT5 being dead. An AES 441 with cams, and all the trimmings...puts you right at $20-30k, depending on how much work one does himself.

Perhaps the blush is off the rose elsewhere, but here in FBI country, playing with building up LT5s is alive and well!

P.
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Old 09-21-2011, 06:25 PM
  #31  
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Not sure you'd need to go 368 to make 450rwhp. Paul's done a very nice job with just porting and stock cams. I think porting plus a cam change may get into the 450 neighborhood.
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Old 09-21-2011, 06:41 PM
  #32  
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Is this X pipe still available new from anyone for the 3" B&B system?
Thanks!

Marty
1FUNZR1
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Old 09-21-2011, 06:43 PM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by Dominic Sorresso View Post
Not sure you'd need to go 368 to make 450rwhp. Paul's done a very nice job with just porting and stock cams. I think porting plus a cam change may get into the 450 neighborhood.
Yes 432rwhp is a great number. But I also know that Pete had to yank the A/C pump out of it to get that extra 30 hp to bump him up to 474rwhp. You may be able to get away with having no A/C in chicago. But not here in Texas. You will be hating life when its hovering around 108 degrees. And this summer was brutal.

Last edited by rhipsher; 09-21-2011 at 06:51 PM.
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Old 09-21-2011, 06:59 PM
  #34  
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At the last Texas gathering Corey was telling me that he replaced his res with an X pipe and he gained 15hp. And he was explaining the science behind why. Something about how it equalizes the flow and evenly dissipates heat. When Corey explains things its in a very scientific way and breaks it all down so even the dumbest dumby can understand.
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Old 09-21-2011, 07:34 PM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by rhipsher View Post
Yes 432rwhp is a great number. But I also know that Pete had to yank the A/C pump out of it to get that extra 30 hp to bump him up to 474rwhp. You may be able to get away with having no A/C in chicago. But not here in Texas. You will be hating life when its hovering around 108 degrees. And this summer was brutal.
Well, it was a little more than pulling the A/C pump... He has reground cams which he says is prolly worth 25+, the electric water pump shed around 10+ and his exclusive cam and ignition timing and tuning, and a couple other little details buys him that 41 hp. As for the A/C pump, with the A/C turned off, I don't know what the hp loss would be, but I'll bet a steak dinner it's nowhere near 30. (And, if I recall, I think I read somewhere that the ECM turns the A/C pump off when throttle position approaches WOT.)

But, you're right, Rick. More might be had by removing some stuff. I'm intrigued by what I might get by going to the electric pump. I think 440+ RWHP on a stock bottom, stock cammed 350 cid that idles like a kitten and is perfectly happy in city traffic...would be awesome! See what an NA LS1 motor sounds like, and what kind of manners it has; one that's putting down 430 to the wheels...and then tell me how "wonderful" that 2-valve push-rod technology is!

P.

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Old 09-21-2011, 09:16 PM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by Paul Workman View Post
Well, it was a little more than pulling the A/C pump... He has reground cams which he says is prolly worth 25+, the electric water pump shed around 10+ and his exclusive cam and ignition timing and tuning, and a couple other little details buys him that 41 hp. As for the A/C pump, with the A/C turned off, I don't know what the hp loss would be, but I'll bet a steak dinner it's nowhere near 30. (And, if I recall, I think I read somewhere that the ECM turns the A/C pump off when throttle position approaches WOT.)

But, you're right, Rick. More might be had by removing some stuff. I'm intrigued by what I might get by going to the electric pump. I think 440+ RWHP on a stock bottom, stock cammed 350 cid that idles like a kitten and is perfectly happy in city traffic...would be awesome! See what an NA LS1 motor sounds like, and what kind of manners it has; one that's putting down 430 to the wheels...and then tell me how "wonderful" that 2-valve push-rod technology is!

P.
I know it was much more than just removing the a/c. I know he's busted his butt getting that car to 474rwhp. But one of them was removing the a/c system. I don't know how much hp the a/c robs the car of but since I live in hell Id like to make 450 and keep the a/c. As pathetic as it is its better than nothing.
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Old 09-21-2011, 09:40 PM
  #37  
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Paul,

You are correct. There is an A/C shutoff rpm in the cal. I
imagine it's there both for drag and to protect the compressor from 7k rpm.
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Old 09-22-2011, 09:14 AM
  #38  
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Torque? Really?? What is this, the L98 forum? You want torque, put in gears. The LT5 can run to 7,500 RPM easy, so gears are an easy change if you want a lot of torque. Certainly easier than adding displacement.
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Old 09-22-2011, 01:43 PM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by Aurora40 View Post
Torque? Really?? What is this, the L98 forum? You want torque, put in gears. The LT5 can run to 7,500 RPM easy, so gears are an easy change if you want a lot of torque. Certainly easier than adding displacement.
And with gears you get less dwell time in gear, more shifting and only the illusion of a faster car. Torque is everything. Area under the curve is everything. The area under the torque curve is why the LT5 does so well against most other engines - it holds a nice flat curve for a long, long, long time.

Case in point: Stock ZR-1 with 3.45s and 4.10s both run identical 1/4 mile times. The 3.45 car finishes in 3rd gear and the 4.10 car finishes in 4th gear. The extra torque to the wheels is nice, but due to the fact that it is there for less time, the car isn't actually faster. Gears aren't a replacement for power.

Of course, should you run into a pushrod motor with 100 more rwtq, it isn't going to matter a lick if he has to shift at 6500 rpm because he will drop back to 5000 rpm and still have more punch than the stock cube LT5 at the higher rpm.

Hp is just a figure to help the slow witted understand how torque relates to rpm.


To the guys up above spending 20-30K on LT5s - I'm glad to hear that Pete is still kicking *** and taking names - that is great! I personally would have difficulty spending 30K on a ZR-1 when I could sell it, get 15, and go buy an 08 Z06. Just sayin'!
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Old 09-22-2011, 04:56 PM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by DDSLT5 View Post
Case in point: Stock ZR-1 with 3.45s and 4.10s both run identical 1/4 mile times. The 3.45 car finishes in 3rd gear and the 4.10 car finishes in 4th gear. The extra torque to the wheels is nice, but due to the fact that it is there for less time, the car isn't actually faster. Gears aren't a replacement for power.
That's not my experience Doc. I'm not sure I understand this "dwell time" you're talking about.
If you mean that it spends more time in each gear, you're right, but what does that get you? Think of the run as three dyno pulls, mountains that you have to climb. With three gears you spend more time off the peak rpm than you would with four gears in the quarter.
An entire run would consist of, (with sticky tires), leaving at 4K, shifting at 7,200, it drops to 6,300-6,500 after the shift, same to third, same to fourth, you're never under 6K rpm. That creates less of a mountain to climb, and a quicker run. If you're just saying that the shift to fourth is going to cost time, sure, but not nearly as much as what you're gaining.
Bottom line, I changed from 3.45's to 4.10's and dropped e.t. by .10 -.15.
And let's not start that excessive wheelspin discussion again. If you can't get traction you need more tire. IMHO.
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