28 years of waiting...
09-26-2018, 05:26 PM
#81
Whoa. In preparation for my scheduled smog test next week, I've been reading all the info on CA smog testing the ZR1. That is not happy reading...
There's nothing I've found that's conclusive, but it appears I need to undo my mod that permanently wires the secondaries open. Is there anyone out there who's passed a smog test with the secondaries permanently on? It actually seems odd to me that the car would pass with them closed, but not open. I would assume the mixture is the same, and that the same volume of air-fuel is required to spin the motor with enough power to move the wheels 15mph and 25mph with or without secondaries.
One thing I'd like to understand is what happens when you turn on 'full-power' mode with the valet key. Does this do anything other than open the secondaries with vacuum and turn on an LED?
I'd value any advice on this. I'd rather not pull the plenum again, but will if I need to. I've already designed up a non-vacuum switch to open and close the secondaries if I need to pull the plenum. My appt is on Monday.
-Gonzo
There's nothing I've found that's conclusive, but it appears I need to undo my mod that permanently wires the secondaries open. Is there anyone out there who's passed a smog test with the secondaries permanently on? It actually seems odd to me that the car would pass with them closed, but not open. I would assume the mixture is the same, and that the same volume of air-fuel is required to spin the motor with enough power to move the wheels 15mph and 25mph with or without secondaries.
One thing I'd like to understand is what happens when you turn on 'full-power' mode with the valet key. Does this do anything other than open the secondaries with vacuum and turn on an LED?
I'd value any advice on this. I'd rather not pull the plenum again, but will if I need to. I've already designed up a non-vacuum switch to open and close the secondaries if I need to pull the plenum. My appt is on Monday.
-Gonzo
09-26-2018, 08:01 PM
#82
Burning Brakes
OP, I hate to be annoying. Honestly. But have these guys not told you that the analog coolant reading is inaccurate? When new, these cars had stickers on the instrument cluster saying that the analog is not true to actual temp. You know the button that says "gauges"? Press it, until you see "cool" and bam, you have an accurate reading. I am saying this because I just saw your pic of the analog temp gauge. Also, many new C4 owners think there cars are over heating. So I always do my best to tell them about the digital reading. Crazy about the dead rats!! Still, going Dewitts is a wise choice.
Brian A.
90 ZR-1
12.09@118
01 Z06
not quite stock.
09-27-2018, 03:24 AM
#84
Race Director
As stated getting a bone stock Z to pass smog is getting close to impossible,getting one to pass with mods won’t work. OP,I’m in Fremont,I’ve tried over the years to get the Ca ZR-1s but not bing really happened. Hans in L.V. was going to get something going before the weather turns cold but doesn look like it’s going to happen this year. We need a ring leader in this part of the Country,Gonzo,COME ON DOWN!
09-27-2018, 07:56 AM
#85
Le Mans Master
As stated getting a bone stock Z to pass smog is getting close to impossible,getting one to pass with mods won’t work. OP,I’m in Fremont,I’ve tried over the years to get the Ca ZR-1s but not bing really happened. Hans in L.V. was going to get something going before the weather turns cold but doesn look like it’s going to happen this year. We need a ring leader in this part of the Country,Gonzo,COME ON DOWN!
they would be a challenge even for a fresh stocker and the lt5 is a bit dirty on HC. with big stg II cams fogggetttaaaboutit
09-27-2018, 11:48 AM
#86
Drifting
As stated getting a bone stock Z to pass smog is getting close to impossible,getting one to pass with mods won’t work. OP,I’m in Fremont,I’ve tried over the years to get the Ca ZR-1s but not bing really happened. Hans in L.V. was going to get something going before the weather turns cold but doesn look like it’s going to happen this year. We need a ring leader in this part of the Country,Gonzo,COME ON DOWN!
Gonzo, I may have missed it, i have been away, did you get a Haibeck chip to operate in secondary delete mode?
H
09-27-2018, 12:35 PM
#87
Instructor
Thread Starter
-Gonzo
09-27-2018, 12:56 PM
#88
Race Director
Jeff, Actually I’m a little closer, in Reno. Been a little busy with my other hobby, hunting. I’ll be available after the 15th of Oct. Seems to me Sacramento would be a good central place to meet. There’s a C&C in Folsom that TC was talking about. Late Oct is generally still decent weather wise.
Gonzo, I may have missed it, i have been away, did you get a Haibeck chip to operate in secondary delete mode?
H
09-27-2018, 01:10 PM
#89
Drifting
I have not chipped the car yet. I know the car will not pass emissions with the chip. I safety wired the secondaries open in order to bypass the secondary vacuum system. Looks like I jumped the gun on that. Still not sure why the secondaries being open would not pass smog. I would have assumed that the air-fuel mixture necessary for spinning the wheels at 15mph and 25mph would have been the same regardless of whether the secondaries were open or not.
-Gonzo
-Gonzo
H
09-27-2018, 01:11 PM
#90
Drifting
H
09-27-2018, 06:09 PM
#91
Instructor
Thread Starter
OMG! Do not drive the car without a secondary delete chip. Wiring the secondaries open w/o the delete chip results in a serious lean condition! That explains why your car is running poorly. Get the chip from Haibeck and you will see the difference. Running it this way will damage the engine. And yes the car will likely not pass CA smog with a secondary delete in place. Get it back to stock, pass smog (hopefully) and then do the delete with the correct chip.
H
That said, you did answer part of a question of mine - What does turning the key to performance actually do besides light up an LED and open the secondary butterflies? If I understand you correctly, the performance key not only opens the secondaries... it also tells the secondary injectors to fire (I suspected that might be controlled by the MAP sensor). This leads to a follow-up question - if the performance key is set to full power, but the secondary butterflies don't open (vacuum leak?), does the MAP sensor tell the secondary injectors not to fire?
Is there anything else the valet switch does when in full-power mode?
I will get a Haibeck chip after I pass smog... so long as I have a way to back this out every two years.
-Gonzo
Last edited by Gonzo_65_L76; 09-27-2018 at 06:34 PM.
09-27-2018, 06:22 PM
#92
Instructor
Thread Starter
Once I get this thing smog'd and gain a little more confidence in its reliability... I'll be interested in meeting up to check out other Z's over a beer. At this point I'm still overly-focused on resolving smog and cooling issues.
How disgusted would you all be if I drive the '65 instead
. I will say that this whole sub-thread on CA smog testing has me appreciating my '65 even more than I was before. I can do ANYTHING I want to that car. Part of me thinks it could be fun to drop the LT5 into another midyear... I could have the best of both worlds... and no issues from the smog *****.
-Gonzo
How disgusted would you all be if I drive the '65 instead
. I will say that this whole sub-thread on CA smog testing has me appreciating my '65 even more than I was before. I can do ANYTHING I want to that car. Part of me thinks it could be fun to drop the LT5 into another midyear... I could have the best of both worlds... and no issues from the smog *****.-Gonzo
09-27-2018, 06:42 PM
#93
Drifting
Just because your driving with the power key on doesn’t mean the secondary injectors a functioning. The secondary injectors only come on when specific engine parameters are met. This article from Haibeck explains.
http://www.zr1specialist.com/HAT%20W...econdaries.pdf
With the secondaries wired open and only the primary injectors functioning (even with the power key on) you are running the engine in an extreme lean condition much of the time. I’m surprised the SES light has not come on a thrown a code. You are risking engine damage driving it this way.
Looks like your heading back in the right direction by putting the secondary system back to normal to pass smog. Remember to put the power key in the normal (low power) position for the emissions test. Better yet remove it all together.
If you haven’t done it already go to Haibecks site and read up on all of his articles, presentations and technical informations. You will save yourself a lot of headaches in the long run.
H
http://www.zr1specialist.com/HAT%20W...econdaries.pdf
With the secondaries wired open and only the primary injectors functioning (even with the power key on) you are running the engine in an extreme lean condition much of the time. I’m surprised the SES light has not come on a thrown a code. You are risking engine damage driving it this way.
Looks like your heading back in the right direction by putting the secondary system back to normal to pass smog. Remember to put the power key in the normal (low power) position for the emissions test. Better yet remove it all together.
If you haven’t done it already go to Haibecks site and read up on all of his articles, presentations and technical informations. You will save yourself a lot of headaches in the long run.
H
09-27-2018, 07:46 PM
#94
Once I get this thing smog'd and gain a little more confidence in its reliability... I'll be interested in meeting up to check out other Z's over a beer. At this point I'm still overly-focused on resolving smog and cooling issues.
How disgusted would you all be if I drive the '65 instead. I will say that this whole sub-thread on CA smog testing has me appreciating my '65 even more than I was before. I can do ANYTHING I want to that car. Part of me thinks it could be fun to drop the LT5 into another midyear... I could have the best of both worlds... and no issues from the smog *****.
-Gonzo
How disgusted would you all be if I drive the '65 instead
. I will say that this whole sub-thread on CA smog testing has me appreciating my '65 even more than I was before. I can do ANYTHING I want to that car. Part of me thinks it could be fun to drop the LT5 into another midyear... I could have the best of both worlds... and no issues from the smog *****.-Gonzo
09-27-2018, 11:02 PM
#95
Instructor
Thread Starter
Yeah... I just saw an LT5 on eBay last week for $5k. I have ~3x that in my '65 motor. I wonder how difficult it would be to drop an LT5 into a midyear? My gut says that if you could drop a 427 in there... you should be able to throw in an LT5. I suspect the devil would show up with the 25yo computer and ignition system. That might take a little time to think through and get right. It would prob turn out the same as an LS7 build where you simply replace everything between the chassis and the glass (fuel-tank, fuel lines, drive shaft, radiator, ignition, harness, etc...). But man... at the end... this might just be the coolest Corvette ever.
... I guess I better start buying the flowers and the jewelry now.
-Gonzo
... I guess I better start buying the flowers and the jewelry now.
-Gonzo
10-02-2018, 08:38 PM
#96
Instructor
Thread Starter
First the good news - with the TB coolant blocked, removing the plenum can be done in about 5 mins with 4 hands. Also, my use of 4-letter expletives is improving.
Now the bad ...
I added the secondary vacuum system back in the car in prep for the smog test. We tested the vacuum cylinders to make sure they worked correctly, and did not have leaks. Double checked everything, and put the plenum back on with my extra extra-thick plenum gasket, and torqued everything. Thanks to blocking the TB coolant, and another set of hands, this whole exercise took about an hour. We then jumped in the car for a quick drive.
The car was definitely under-powered, but we also saw the check engine line come on. Oh joy. We then turned the power key to see if we could get the secondaries to fire. Well... the LED came on, but no change in power. Ugh. Drove back to garage and parked. We discovered (with the hood up) that when you turn the car off, there is a hissing noise (vacuum leak) that lasts for about 15 seconds after shutdown... UNDER the plenum
Then we decided to hook up my brand new Actron code sensor to check codes -
For code 16, I bench tested all the coils the first time we had the plenum off. All were well within range for both primary and secondary resistance. I assume heat / high-voltage is causing at least one to fail.
Code 31??? Anyone have any ideas on this one? I haven't started searching this one yet.
I assume codes 56 and 61 are due to the vacuum leak I have yet to uncover. Is this a good assumption?
So... yes. I will be pulling the plenum for a THIRD time in ~2 weeks. I should just velcro the dang thing down until I'm sure I have everything worked out.
-Gonzo
Now the bad ...
I added the secondary vacuum system back in the car in prep for the smog test. We tested the vacuum cylinders to make sure they worked correctly, and did not have leaks. Double checked everything, and put the plenum back on with my extra extra-thick plenum gasket, and torqued everything. Thanks to blocking the TB coolant, and another set of hands, this whole exercise took about an hour. We then jumped in the car for a quick drive.
The car was definitely under-powered, but we also saw the check engine line come on. Oh joy. We then turned the power key to see if we could get the secondaries to fire. Well... the LED came on, but no change in power. Ugh. Drove back to garage and parked. We discovered (with the hood up) that when you turn the car off, there is a hissing noise (vacuum leak) that lasts for about 15 seconds after shutdown... UNDER the plenum
Then we decided to hook up my brand new Actron code sensor to check codes -
- 16 - Direct ignition system (DIS) open or short circuit
- 31 - Camshaft sensor circuit problem
- 56 - Port throttle system vacuum sensor problem
- 61 - Port throttle system fault
For code 16, I bench tested all the coils the first time we had the plenum off. All were well within range for both primary and secondary resistance. I assume heat / high-voltage is causing at least one to fail.
Code 31??? Anyone have any ideas on this one? I haven't started searching this one yet.
I assume codes 56 and 61 are due to the vacuum leak I have yet to uncover. Is this a good assumption?
So... yes. I will be pulling the plenum for a THIRD time in ~2 weeks. I should just velcro the dang thing down until I'm sure I have everything worked out.
-Gonzo
10-02-2018, 08:50 PM
#97
Instructor
I don't believe the system will go into full power mode if a code exists.
Don't ask me why I suggest these, I will deny everthing.
- 16 - Direct ignition system (DIS) open or short circuit
- 31 - Camshaft sensor circuit problem
- 56 - Port throttle system vacuum sensor problem
- 61 - Port throttle system fault
Don't ask me why I suggest these, I will deny everthing.
Last edited by mhobtr; 10-02-2018 at 08:51 PM.
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Gonzo_65_L76 (10-02-2018)
10-03-2018, 12:54 AM
#98
Race Director
I don't believe the system will go into full power mode if a code exists.
Don't ask me why I suggest these, I will deny everthing.
- 16 - Direct ignition system (DIS) open or short circuit
- 31 - Camshaft sensor circuit problem
- 56 - Port throttle system vacuum sensor problem
- 61 - Port throttle system fault
Don't ask me why I suggest these, I will deny everthing.
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Gonzo_65_L76 (10-03-2018)
10-03-2018, 06:50 AM
#99
Drifting
Start with the lowest numerical DTC code first & resolve, others usually follow.
Code 16: Check for bent pin occurring during re-installation of the DIS Module connector ( long one with 1/4" hex bolt in center). Happens once to just about everyone. If so, carefully straighten & attach connector.
Clear codes after each fix & drive to see if code(s) reset.
Code 16: Check for bent pin occurring during re-installation of the DIS Module connector ( long one with 1/4" hex bolt in center). Happens once to just about everyone. If so, carefully straighten & attach connector.
Clear codes after each fix & drive to see if code(s) reset.
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Gonzo_65_L76 (10-03-2018)
10-03-2018, 11:25 AM
#100
Instructor
Thread Starter
The car actually runs smoothly and does not buck and snort... this leads me to believe we bent a pin, and that the code 16 is causing enough of a disruption to throw the other cam sensor 31 code. I'll try to check this out today or tomorrow after finishing the family's RC car track. <Doing my part to encourage the next generation of car enthusiast>
-Gonzo
-Gonzo