I am wondering if I built a bigger intercooler radiator for the maggie, if it would cool down the maggie air temp anymore than the stock unit. IT has a 7-1/2 x 20 single core radiator. What do you guys think if it was a double core unit? I have the knowledge and access to TIG welder, and I do machining, so fabing it up is no problem. I just don't want to spend the time and money if it's not going to help much.
Another concern is water flow. What would it do? Any experts on this?

 

Red99,

You have a few options, but unfortunately none are that simple. You have very little room to work with and that’s the biggest problem.

If you want to replace liquid-to-air intercooler/heat exchanger I would jump to copper alloy (with some nickel) and skip dual core all together. The thermal transfer coefficient is almost double that of aluminum alloy. Also I would go for a more optimized air to liquid surface area ratio.

Other things you mentioned like more flow will also not hurt. Then don’t forget insulation coatings.

If you want more detailed info let me know.


Mike

 

Sure Mike (Skunkworks)! Fill me in on the detail. I would like to do everything possible to help get the charge air as cool as possible. (Within reason). I can't seem to leave nothing alone and always looking to improve it.

 

The first and easiest change would be to increase flow (water pump).This may result in a small change because the faster (mass flow) pump flows the larger the thermal capacity. BTU is basically one pound of water heated or cooled by one degree F in a unit of time (second, minute or hour). Your delta (temperature differential is fixed) so you can only increase flow more.

Thermal coatings in intake manifold will reduce engine based heating via transfer through aluminum alloy (heads to intake to Maggie body).

You could also try an insulator between intake and Maggie mounting plate. There are some niece exotic materials that transfer virtually no heat. The only transfer you should get is through bolts.

Then you can try direct port injection into each intake runner, sort of like N2O wet systems. I have an intake that somewhat resembles Maggie intake and drilling and tapping would be very simple. The benefit would be most of alky/water cooling would go directly to charge air not big chunk of thermal mass (all that aluminum). Spraying Systems make some very niece 316SS nozzles with various dispersion patterns and at a reasonable cost (I can pick these up directly from company).

As far as copper core, I’m working with company in Wisconsin that has good capabilities and a sense of humor. Let me know if want to pursue this avenue.


Mike

 

I had thermal coating on my list of "to do" things. Do you have any leads on where to get a higher flow water pump? And what kind of material are you talking about, and how thick would it have to be?
So does this company only supply the copper core, or do they build the whole radiator w/ end tanks? That is the best part of the aluminum, it's easy to fab up home made end tanks.

 

The reason I brought up copper versus aluminum is because of thermal transfer coefficients, refer below (highest possible number is best).

Aluminum alloys
2042-T3 = 190.4 W/m*C
3003 = 233.64 W/m*C
6061-T6 = 155.8 W/m*C

Copper = 392.9 W/m*C

Silver = 417.1 W/m*C
Glass = 1.13 W/m*C
Diamond = 550 W/m*C
Concrete = 1.8 W/m*C
Ice = 2.2 W/m*C
^ just for s

The higher the number (U) the less surface area you need to do same amount of work, or you get more cooling if intercooler stays same size.

As far as working with copper I think it’s actually easier then aluminum.

I’ll look up insulating materials tomorrow at work. There is this plastic like material (in sheet form) that can be used as gasket between intake and Maggie mounting plate that is incredible. I played with a lighter on one side and my finger tip on other and barely any temperature/heat rise was felt.

High flow pump, I would look at Ford lightning Bosch unit. It is supposed to flow over 6 GPM.


Mike

Edit -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bell Intercoolers can make you a niece core to your specs (more fins per inch, maybe touch bigger…)

 

Good stuff Mike... do you have a thermal solution for minimal heat transfer between me and my wife when I pull the trigger on a Maggie for my truck?

Bill

 

When it comes to girlfriend/wife your on your own.

I just thought of something, I hope RED99 was talking about intercooler in intake manifold not front unit (radiator). If it is radiator then a good fan would help some too.

Oh, on truck you may have room for Starr Performance Whipple system. Call/email Peter Starr, a really niece guy.


Mike

 

Thanks. I'll email them and see what they have to work with for a truck. Pics on their website look interesting...

 

I have a fair amount of experience with A/W setups (non vette), and realistically, almost anything you do is just going to lengthen the time before heat soak sets in. If you stay in boost, it WILL set in.

A/W setups are great for the drag strip (you can ice the heat exchanger), and not bad for the street, if designed correctly, but in general not as good as an air to air setup as far as consistent cooling goes.

In a boat application, they work well because the water won't heat soak.

In a street application, unlike an A/A setup, you need periods of off boost running to get rid of the heat. Generally, 5 to 10 second bursts is all that an A/W setup can take before the whole system is heat soaked.

Some apps like more flow and bigger heat exchangers, but as said earlier, this only extends time before heat soak by seconds.

Another factor is the location of the IC in the manifold. This is not good as far as heat goes.

On the plus side, the C5 system with small throttled volume should have a crisper throttle response than A/A systems with long runs of tubing between components.

I have a 1.8 liter setup on an import that I use an isolated A/W IC, Jabsco high flow pump and 3 heat exchangers. Results are very decent, but cost and fitment were not cheap or easy.

For the C5, I think that alky is the cheapest effective way to go.

I have also been giving thought to the IC in the manifold. The biggest problem is core thickness, in that the charge has to be cooled over time and is limited by the thin core. I was giving some thought to fabbing a spacer to raise the blower anoother inch or so and use a thicker core. Just more food for thought, not to mention hole in the hood! Eveery little bit helps, but most of it will produce only marginal gains, ergo the alky solution

JMO

 

Yes Mike I was talking about the "OUTSIDE" Radiator. Sorry for the confusion. I haven't pulled it apart yet to look at the inside intercooler.
Doesn't Copper conduct and only pull heat away faster than aluminum, but aluminum disipates if faster? Which is why they use copper core alumium Heat Sinks for CPU's? IF so, what about copper coating the inside intercooler? Would that work?

 

The outside or front mount is easy to change and don’t pay $$$ for copper. In electronics especially consumer it’s about cost. Copper will outperform aluminum in every respect.

Sorry for the confusion! I know that heat soak can be reduced in intake based cooling. I’ve done way too many calculations and $75,000 CFD software package agrees. Why don’t you start with good 300 CFM+ fan on front heat exchanger and run it all the time. Or at least when moving slowly.

300*0.072(lbs/CFM)*10(degree F delta (should be log mean, but this is a simple example)) = 216 BTU/min that should ward off steady state heat soak and aid in recovery time.

The biggest problem is engine thermal transfer, which is why I brought up thermal barriers. If you really want to put a serious dent into IAT then intake intercooler has to be addressed along with thermal barriers (coatings, gaskets…).

Let me know if you want to tackle Maggie side cooling because that’s where it’s weakest. If you do I need approximate dimensions and I’ll do mass balance calculations (the starting point) and go from there.


Mike

 

I have done a pre-oreder for the vented hood from MCM, and I just installed a Vararam CAI. I am also going to install a double core Dewitt radiator, and a 160 TS. If I can insulate the heat from the manifold with a material like Mike is talking about, PLUS, insulate the manifold from the heads via thermal heat paint, I would think that alone would be a difference over the stock maggie set-up. Then try to upgrade the pump, along with the radiator and intercooler somehow, even if it's just some coating. All I can do is try.

 

OK, I will pull it apart tomorrow and measure the inside intercooler. And also be looking at some sort of electric fan(s) for the radiator part. There is a person local that I trust to do the thermal painting on the manifold. He has done pistons and heads for me and the stuff stays on and works. I'll get him to do the bolts too.

 

A couple of thoughts on using nitrous for cooling:

If you plumb enough of it through the charge cooler, it may condense and freeze air moisture on the fins, reducing air flow.

If you're going to use nitrous to cool the intake air, why not also take advantage of the oxygen content by spraying it in the conventional way?

 

EXACTLY! why use N2O to cool a the cooler when you could use it to cool the air?!?!?!?!?!? and then you get the benifits of the N2O too!

also look into feeding the Mag with more COLD air! try a ram feed of the front end.

a bigger prerad would help/reduce heat soak. also look at keeping the fluid cool using heat wrap or ally sheet. then you start to get complex. like lifting the rear of the hood a couple of inch to allow the air to get out faster thus improving air flow through the engine bay!


Thanks Chris,

 

I do have a a Vararam. So that is about as fresh of cold air as anyone can get. And I am thinking of replacing the outside radiator for the I/C with a double core unit.
I am trying to stay away from N2O and Alky. I want to just put pump gas in it and go and not have to worry about filing bottles or an alky tank. I plan on taking some roadtrips in this. I doubt that I will be able to find alky or N20 in some rinky dink town 300 miles from the nearest city. No what I mean? I am not sure how many full throttle blast and alky tank will last. But I am assuming not a lot. RIGHT???

 

Yeah your a nut. (J/K) That might be COOL for a drag racing. But I don't want to be messing with unplugging and draining my coolant just to make a 1/4 mile run at the strip. Too much work for me.

 

Yeah, I hear ya about not having to fill alky tanks or nitrous bottles.
One neat thing about a blower with nitrous though is that you're already making enough power that you don't need to use the nitrous very often. A bottle can last a long time! How much street time per year can you actually spend at the 550 to 700 horsepower level? I'm guessing about several minutes total for most people, so you might only need to fill a few times a year.

Same question regarding the alky. How much time do you spend at full boost? People on the forum have said you can purchase it at Wal Mart or any hardware store.

That said, it sounds like you're looking for a more elegant solution, and I understand.

 

you could try to install a bypass of the ac system, ie a 2 way valve that would direct the freon thru the water res. to cool it down to 40deg in prep of a run. the only problem is that this would require a diffrent tune for when you had cold water and when you did not.

just a thought.

More Than Zero