irun4cops

So, like many other vette owners out there with the big blowers, i have had my fair share of fuel starvation and reliability issues with my car. I installed a real time air/fuel guage from my exhaust, just above my boost gauge in my pillar to monitor just how consistant air fuel ratios stay with my boostapump and walbro 255 setup. And the simple anser is, they didnt.

Before i go any further, there are some nice in tank setups by ecs and a&a corvettes, but what i am going to describe is different from either of their setups simply becuase of a little fuel pump out of japan that us american guys arent very knowlegable about.

The stock toyota twin turbo supra 93-98 has a denso 195130-1020 pump. This pump flows 290lph on 14 volts. Yes... much more than the walbro 255, supporting over 500wheel horse power, on one in tank pump. The pump pumps more fuel at more voltages and a wider range of rail pressure psi's than any other stock pump I have been able to find. It gets better...

This pump has gone up against every other in tank pump in many magazine shootouts, and not only does it flow more than most, but it IS the most RELIABLE!... the magazine tests show how overspinning a pump can lead to almost instant failure with the walbro 255, but not with the denso pump.

btw, there are many denso pumps, for all toyotas, so when doing your research, stay on the part number described above 195130-1020, and it also goes by 195130-1270.

But.. it gets better...

HKS is a very well respected fuel pump company, and they got their hands on the denso supra pump, and re worked it. While it doesn't show any big advantages over the stock supra pump at 12 and 14volts, it runs away to 340lph at 16v @43psi rail pressure. Yeah... thats right... and magazines have tested it as well, and it is still relaible, and can be overspun without failure like our little walbros, which is why it retails for over 800 dollars hks part number 1407-001US

and it gets better... Kyosan is a japanese company as well, who took the denso, re-worked it, and they came up with the kyosan 895091-0810. Same size, same outer casing, inlet and outlet, but 390lph at 14v at 43psi. That wasn't a typo... and i know several people who have been running these pumps on daily driver cars for over 2 years, with fuel return systems, at a constant 45psi, and 14 volts. AND I have had 3 of these pumps sent to 3 different fuel flow testing facilities, and all came back with the big 390lph number, and ALL 3 companies called me out of curiosity to inquire where i got the pump, and what it is.

our vettes run at like 13.7 volts with the alternators going, and a kenne belle boostapump box can take us well over 16 volts.

More kyosan stats:
10psi 510lph 7.7amps 14v
20psi 470lph 8.3amps 14v
30psi 430lph 8.9amps 14v
40psi 390lph 9.5amps 14v
50psi 350lph 10.5amps 14v
60psi 305lph 11.5amps 14v
70psi 258lph 12.5amps 14v
80psi 200lph 13.5amps 14v
90psi 140lph 14.2amps 14v

30psi 320lph 7.3amps 12v
40psi 273lph 8.3amps 12v
50psi 225lph 9.3amps 12v
60psi 180lph 10.4amps 12v

40psi 120lph 7.1amps 9v
i got all the 9v numbers, but who cares, our batteries hold 12, so even if your alternator fails, your still in ok shape.



My vette builder at has figured out how to modify the stock in tank pump carrier setup on my 02 z06, and a 2003 frc to accept either 1, or 2 of ANY of the pumps described above since they all have the same outer casing, and we have been able to feed more fuel to the motor than a lingenfelter c5r 427 750tt package could come close to drinking, (the car actually left lingenfelters shop limitted to 650rwhp because its fuel duty cycle was maxed out and the customer was never told, and we are now making 800+hp to the wheels after the retune with enough fuel, bigger injectors, rails, and lines than lingenfelter put on. The reason is it would take 4, four... (4) walbro 255's to compete with the fuel system we have. 4 pumps. Try getting the stock carrier to hold that... No thanks, and lingenfelter didnt want to back in 2003 either it seems

A single kyosan will support OVER 800hp forced induction to the wheels without a problem. Dual stock denso supra tt pumps will support OVER 1000rwhp on fi motors with high rail pressures. On my 02 z06, we are running 1000cc (96lb) low impedance injectors, and the pumps can OUTFLOW the injectors by 30-40% at 100% duty cycle!... you can do the math for yourself if you understand all the formulas.

Best of all... the cost. The stock denso pumps retail for about 400 bucks. I have done tons of reserach, and have found a distributor willing to sell at 150 bucks a pump, new, sealed in the box. so for 300 bucks in fuel pumps, you can support over 1000hp.

Gets better... the hks sells for over 800 retail. Ive found an overstocked dealer who lets them go for 450, and i have an extra I would be willing to sell for less. part number 1407-001US

And the kyosan's... 390lph @ 43psi and 14v in tank pump... designed for an industrial feed tank on large equipment over in japan. retailed for over 1000 dollars, the few that actually made it to the states. After flow testing this pump myself, i went on a search for as many of these pumps as I could find. I finally found a dealer here in the US who has 10 of them left, and says they are discontinued. He has no clue what he is sitting on, and is willing to sell them for 350 dollars!! HE IS NOT AWARE OF THE FLOW RATES, SO IF I PUT YOU IN TOUCH WITH HIM, DONT TELL HIM!!!

ECS has a kit they are willing to sell, as well as a&a corvette, and if my memory serves me correctly, they are about 1800 bucks for a kit that cant support over 700hp, and more money for one that can.

My point is, INSTALLED my 1400hp+!!! fuel kit for UNDER the 1800 dollar pricetags listed above... 3 braided lines (2 main, 1 return) plus all fittings, 2000hp regulator aeromotive pro, upgraded rails, and it is quiet, in the tank, and uses stock carrier from the c5 vette.

Im just puzzled how 2 of us little guys, with a bit of research, came up with a simpler, more reliable fuel system, than these big companies.

Hopefully this information is helpful to someone else besides me

TheGovernor

nice... thanks

0Arun@ChampionMotors

I was the first guys to use Lonnies "double pumper" system and to my knowledge I don't know of anyone has made near the amount of horsepower with a Centri blower or gone as fast with a 347( 9.67 in the middle of august in 85 degree heat)that I have-over 920 rwhp and counting through a auto. We sell it for $1650 US and it's complete with -8 and -6 lines, regulator, rails, basicaly everyhting thing you need to install the setup. There's no need to run a BAP and fuel pressure with the 96's is only at a 44 base-so far there's plenty of fuel to make even more power. Nick Y has been running his own version and he's over 1000 rwhp with a auto as well.

BUT that's great info on the pumps-I searched long and hard as well but Lonnie set me up with a killer system and happy to sell it with confidence to anyone who wants to make big power!

95BlueBomber

I run my own Dual Intank as well.. It has taken a lot of work but it seems to work pretty well.

irun4cops

yeah, the biggest problem with big fuel pumps is keeping them cool. In tank pumps have such a huge advantage because the gas is used as their coolant. The stock intank pump setup has fuel around the pumps at all times, even when the tank is empty because the pump is in a plastic canister that is kept full by the return line from the stock fuel filter and/or kickover pump from the passenger side tank.

When developing a canister for the denso pumps listed above, we were able to use the stock plastic canister to house the pump. When doing a "dual in tank setup" we have custom fabricated a canister that stays full at all times from the return line and/or the kick over pump. This canister has dual fuel pickups through seperate fuel socks outside the can itself. These rest on the bottom of the tank. This new canister is made to adapt to the stock fuel carrier plate, and still uses the stock fuel level sensor.

We are also using fuel coolers in our setup, and i have located several types of coolers at the absolute best prices. We are using engine oil coolers that normally cost over 600 dollars, and obtaining them new for just under 100 bucks. We have them on the way up, and on the return line back. The return line is actually the most critical to be kept cool, for this fuel not only keeps your pumps cooled because it is the fuel that is placed back in the canister, but it is also only a matter of time until all your fuel circulates through your fuel system while you are just cruising around becuase your engine refuses 99 percent of the fuel, and the regulator sends it all back to the tank.

Hot fuel in the tank leads to cavitation in the pumps. This is the biggest problem i had on my boostapump setup because the way procharger had thier pro pump fed by the warbro 255, it was cavitating the procharger pump because the fuel was too hot, and basically bubbles, and reduces pump performance and fuel pressure drasticly, enough to where my car would start to misfire from being so lean.

The canister we are using to house the dual pumps is custom made by nate, and not very expensive to make at all, and fits perfectly through the 3 inch hole that comes stock on the chevy drivers side tank. The pumps are hard mounted within the canister, and very secure. Since it uses the return line to keep fuel in the canister, the pumps are kept cool up until the point you would completely run out of gas, at which point they shut off anyway, and even then, they would still have fuel around them because the drivers tank would run empty while the canister is still full.

This setup is actually more reliable than stock, plus you are using more reliable pumps to begin with.

Cliff99C5hardtop

Great info......any pics of the setup?

madmatt9471

One question on the LPH is this standing for Litres Per Hour and if so how does it equal out in GPH Gallons Per Hour!

Very interesting and great information especially for the price!

If you would do a comparison for me I have:

LPE fuel pump
MagnaVolt BAP
Stock Lines
42 lb Lucas Injectors

639 RWHP @ 6350 RPM

Why will this be better for me if say I want to take my set-up to over the 700 RWHP mark, which was stated that it would not be recommended or would I be safe?

Hope I did not confuse

Thanks,Matt

Warp Factor

Sounds well thought out, "irun4cops".

Will it work with E-85?

irun4cops

First question to answer is liters per hour, and i do know that 340 liters per hour is 71 gallons per hour, if i remember right thats what the stock denso pump advertizes, im sure the conversion factor is somewhere on the internet from lph to gph.


It will probably fail, or come close to failing... reasons, your lines and injectors dont have vig enough cross sections to flow enough fuel, and your fuel rail pressure will become inconsistant, which will cause you to run rich/lean, and its usually lean, so you blow up your motor


First thing you would want to do is consider bigger injectors, 42 are small for the range you are in, id recomend 65's-75's if you plan for 700rwhp. Chances are you are running a high static pressure on your lines like i was when i had a boostpump setup, mine was around 62psi at rails. Problem with this is, you can see from the chart in the initial post that at higher psi's pushing against the pumps, the less fuel they flow. Pressure is good, but ultimately what you want is flow, and a consistant pressure. By going to a bigger injector, it allows more fuel to go in at lesser line and rail backpressures.

With stock lines, chances are, you DO NOT have a return line setup, as most of the vettes to not, but i ahve heard that maybe some of the first ones did in 97? not sure tho.

Setting up a return line setup is not hard, all you have to add is a fuel regulator, like an aeromotive 1000 regulator. This allows for up to 1000hp worth of fuel to be held at a certain preset psi, and then for every pound of boost you run, it matches it, to keep your fuel from flowing slower under boost. So lets say you set the regulator at 40psi, at 10lbs of boost, your fuel pressure would actually be 50psi in the rail, but still, flows through the injectors as it would at 40psi if you were at 0psi of boost. The regulator is a MUST for a return line, new they are a coupel hundred bucks, used they are 150ish, but you have to make sure that your regulator can handle whatever volume your PUMPS FLOW, because the pumps are always ON, and the excess fuel, has to pass through the regulator, and return to the tank.

if you get pumps to flow 1400hp, then you need a 2000hp regulator because 1000 hp regulator would get overloaded, so youd need the aeromotive pro regulator designed for their 2000hp pumps, but it sounds like you have no desire to go that high, and would be fine with 1000hp regulator fuel setup.

By the time you bought the regulator, and at least one AN-8 or AN-10 braided line to take all the fuel up, you could probably get away with using the stock line as the return line as long as you didnt use too big of pumps, or too many. Id say one kyosan would be enough, or if you did go (2) stock denso supra pumps, then you would be plenty safe, but you might need a bigger return line than the stock fuel line if you did do 2 pumps.

If the pumps cost about 300 bucks, then you know you are at about 1300 dollars in parts with the pumps, braided line and fittings, and regulator for 1000hp, and dont forget about the injectors.

The stock fuel rails can be modified and ported to flow more, but there seem to be plenty of people online selling upgrades, so youll have to do some homework there, but its not a costly item.

has not told me yet what he would charge for the in tank modification, but its nothing too bad, but its obviously a bit more if you go dual pumps... but we will work something out probably where if you send your "core" in tank pump assembly, he could ship you one that is already modified, or youd have to pay a core charge. You also get to keep and resel whatever the pump is you already have in the car.

Your boostapump can be taken off no problem, and resold, both the pump and the red box itself,
OR
you might want to keep the boostapump red box to keep your voltage high for the kyosan or hks pumps, because they like higher voltages.

The boostapump box simply raises, and regulates the voltage that is sent to your fuel pumps, so if your alternator puts out 13.7 volts, you can set the boostapump to put out 16v instead, and it supposedly maintains that power. With a return line setup, votage consistancy is not as much an issue as when having a stock dead end line, because now the pressure is maintained by the regulator, and the pumps mearly have to stay above that pressure, which they do by matching and/or beating your engines consumption.... its when the engine consumes more than they pump that your pressure would fall below 40psi, but with this setup, you are in the safe zone unless you start running over 1400hp, and dual kyosans no longer cut it... in which case i would recomend a swirlpot, but thats another discussion

If you did want to make over 700hp, then i would recomend adding a larger feed, and return line. Its the AN fittings that nickel and dime you.

On my setup, we are using dual AN-8 braided lines as feeders, and one AN-8 as a return. Each pump supplies a rail, and a line, and then the pressures are kept equal on both rails by the regulator. It is possible to run a single AN-10 or AN-12 line for the dual pumps, and just have them combine flow right outside the tank, or even before, iin the actual canister itself. Fittings are MUCH more expensive however, and you still have 2 rails to feed, and now one of your rails becomes a choke for flow to the other rail, unless you split flow to 2 lines just before the rails, but by the time you do all the step up and step down blocks and fittings, we thought it would be less expensive, easier and look nicer if we just did 2 AN-8 feed lines, and honestly you could probably get away with dual AN-6, but 8's look meaner And then i have one 8 coming back for the return, and again, could probably get away with 6, but im doing it right the first time so i dont have to mess with it every again, unless i need a third pump at which time ill also be buying a jet engine similar to batmans to drink all this fuel

irun4cops

do the walbros work with e85? If they do, i would imagine these pumps would... but i will have to look into this. Good question tho.

irun4cops

http://www.stealth316.com/2-fuelpumpguide.htm

A great link that confirms much of what i have told you, by some gentleman trying to figure out the same thing for his stealth.

The link mentions the HKS, and the SUPRA TT DENSO, but it also makes mention of a few other denso's and a COSMO hks, which is not the same thing... so be patient as you analyze data.

The page does not make mention of the kyosan however, probably because these are so rare and impossible to find.

PS, if anyone finds any kyosans, LET ME KNOW PLEASE, thanks, Brandon

irun4cops

hks part number was added to the description above, hks # 1407-001US

NICK YOSKIN

great info no doubt......cool and all but my custom intank 255 set up cost me less then 300 dollars.......

and for those out there with new style tanks just buy z06 pump....plug and play.

not sure why the wheel is always trying to be reinvented

irun4cops

what does the z06 pump hold horsepower wise?
Also, for 300 bucks, we are apples to apples on the single kyosan pump which can hold 800hp, which is (2) walbro 255's hp rating on a good day. But, fuel lines are fuel lines, and injectors are injectors, and fuel pressure issues solved by a regulator and a return line is an issue as well... so to say we can go to the moon and back on 300 bucks is stretching things a bit. but if you do have a setup that holds higher horsepower, im extremely interested.

some other food for thought... we are planning to develop a simple swirlpot setup with these as feeder tank pumps, and place the swirlpot up in the front corner behind the z06 duct, where the factory air pump is placed on the front drivers side. Along with the swirlpot can go a large 2000hp pump such as a magnafuel 750. The main problem with the 2000hp pumps are that they are not daily drivable, because the manufacturers worry that they will overheat.... obviously posistion on the pump solves this cooling issue, and the swirlpot in essence is a resevoir, with its own regulator, which feeds the 2000 hp pump from ever going dry with ample supply bc the feeder denso pumps keep it refilling at all times, and once it fills, it has its own return line, back to the main tank, and the return lines from the rails feed back to the swirlpot. We are looking to develop an assembly, (swirlpot, 2000hp pump, fuel cooler) that sit in a cluster in the front left of the car.

Warp Factor

Swirl pot's a great idea. Wouldn't take much of a pump to feed it, with almost zero pressure required (don't see why you'd need to pressurize the swirl pot).
How safe is your proposed location?

irun4cops

the location is not safe at all, lol

and thats why its still in the planning process.

The trick with 2000hp pumps that are electric is keeping them cool, Finding any area on a vette that gets cool air and isnt next to the motor or exhaust is rather tricky. But after looking at your picture, i realize the solution is very simple, we can just put it on the hood

Really, anything below 1200hp, the in tank setup is the way to go with the kyosans. And its not impossible to mount 3 in tank pumps so who knows, but we need someone making that much horsepower first.

The swirlpot has the advantage that everything is going through one main pump to the motor, and if that pump fails, the car shuts off. When you start dealing with 2, 3, even 4 pumps, the nightmare is that when one fails, you have no idea while driving in vacume, and then once you go into boost, its too late, you find out you were running lean after your engine detonates, unless you install the 500 dollar air fuel monitoring system that puts a bung right in your exhaust, and reads out to your dash in real time so you can keep an eye on things.

Like i said, its just and idea, and isnt even necessary unless you are making HUGE amounts of power... but for everything there is a tradeoff, obviously safety is the main loss if we ever did build this setup.

1%r

Great info, however, lots of non supporting vendors mentioned.