MVP'S ZO6

Is that a general statement or was that said somewhere in here?

I suppose there's a ton of legitimate tuners in here who are ignorant.
What findings were those? That make you a firm believer in water?

What kind of power is your car making? How much boost? How big is your intercooler?

p1bz

Look it up. Meth, gasoline BTU's.....google search.

I've been jackin with this crap for years, mainly turbo, carb stuff. My own probe readings and tests. Water cools the chamber.....that is what I care about. Do whatever makes YOU happy. I was a salaried engine builder for years. Build them, strap them to the dyno, take them to the track, I did it for a living. Mainly carb's, and turbo's. Same rules apply.

My vette? Don't know, don't dyno, what does it matter? It's my roll race, play around and do donuts see if I can lay rubber farther than Josh car. Not my fast car.

I don't wish to banter with you, you seem to just be fixed on pump pressure and guts. Completely irrelevant in this discussion.

Why don't you ask yourself how hot is too hot to need so many meth nozzles? If detonation resistance is all you want......water. Why do you need so much meth, when so little water will work? Why do you need so much pressure? Why plastic lines don't work, when it's poured in a plastic washer housing with a rubber grommet on the float sensor? Why run a progressive controller when all you do is turn it to max?

MVP'S ZO6

Slow down there turbo if you don't wish to banter than don't respond. Not saying u didn't do these things but if I had a buck for every engineer, engine builder, race car driver and astronaut I've ever met on the internet id be a million air.

I understand that gasoline has more btus than meth

Methanol runs well at extremely rich physical ratios. It will also pre ignite around its stoic ratio however it will never get to its stoic AFR in our engines.

Ill try to keep this simple. Water or water meth mix does have a positive effect. But when it comes to making big power. It don't. If it did than things like boost juice would be popular on these forums. You inject x amount of fuel at WOT at the same time x amount of meth is being introduced as well. Lets say its a 50/50 mix of meth and water. Last time I checked water didn't burn. Also the last time I checked you could have an artic intake air temp if the fuel isnt there no boom boom. No boom boom no power. The cooling affect of s 50 50 mix works to a certain point. So as the demand for your meth water mix increases so does the amount of water that's being introduced into your combustion chamber. It can do all of the cooling it wants but if it can not ignite because there's a bunch of water in there what good is it? Your berter off getting a more adequate charge cooling system as opposed to running meth and water. Btw I don't crank my meth system all the way up. I used to though.

Plastic tanks work because they dont have pressure built up in them. It has nothing to do with their compatability to the methanol


A little test: dip one finger in water and another in 100 % methanol (a little bit won't hurt ya) then hold em up. Which one feels cooler?

PhysicsDude55

That's not the same effect that makes them prevent detonation, that's just evaporation rate.

For what its worth, it takes about twice the amount of energy to vaporize water as it does methanol by volume, meaning that water will generally be able to cool the incoming air more than methanol.

I'm not saying that you won't get more power out of 100% meth injection, but water, or a water/meth mixture will cool down incoming air more. If you read various writeups about meth/water injection, I think usually a mixture of 30% or so of meth/water is most effective at lowering temperatures, because the methanol helps the water atomize and absorb the energy. And I believe you'll be able to get a lower ultimate temperature with some methanol, because it has a lower vapor point than water does.

chuntington101

I think the issue with Water injection is you have to change things to make it work for you! the advantage of meth is it provides its own additional fuel and is thus easier to to spray and get a improvement in power.

However, with correctly metered water injection you will be able to control the burn however you want. This is what race car have been doing for a long time now. You do need MUCH tighter controls than for a normal meth injection system (which is basically a tank, pump, lines, and a crappy nozzle!). But when combined with individual EGT sensors and accurate dept. monitoring tools will allow you to push the engine further than with Meth only!

As for the WW2 things its actually a bit of a false statement. The RR and Alison V12s in questions actually used lots of methods of reducing intake air temps. These include, intercooling (actually trying to cool the supercharger stages), aftercooling (chargecooler), carb(s) mounted BEFORE the supercharger stages and Anti Dept fluid (a mix of water and methanol).

DOUG @ ECS

After downloading over 20,000 programs into LS vehicles in just the last 6 years alone, exactly how many on meth cars vrs non is unknown, I'm hearing nothing but straight meth or you have a power loss.

The great thing about this country is you do not have to agree.

SBCGENII

A carb does a good job of cooling the Incoming air on its own...

Yes Meth and E85 both have lower BTU than Gas. Lower BTU would only mean less energy if the volume was the same. Water has a lower BTU than meth no matter how much water you have. Water will cool the air charge better at higher temps. Meth will do better at lower temps.

stevieturbo

Failed test. Same with a wooden toilet seat and plastic. Which feels cooler ?

Both in the same room will be at the same temperature.

Water is the better coolant, water is the better detonation suppressant. Unfortunately water can also go too far and put the flame out entirely.

So as mentioned before, it's all down to precise metering. Water does do a very good job, but you just cant go ***** deep with the biggest pumps and jets and let them blast away like you can with methanol.

And metering by pump duty alone as almost all kits do, with no attention to actual engine load, will always mean injecting water is on a loser compared to methanol

Each has good points and bad. Just water requires more attention to detail to get the best from it.

Methanol, anyone can do it. Just dump loads in. If that isnt enough, just dump more in....hell, go far enough and you may as well stop using pump fuel altogether and just use methanol though.

user_name

If you are truly after safety with the meth kit it makes much more sense to run a mixture of water/meth. I've run both combos at various mixtures. It was my experience that it was harder to get knock with the water/meth mix WHEN I wasn't at the limits of what my tune would allow. I mean compression/boost/timing/IAT. It stopped gaining power way before it ever wanted to knock.

Once I started to rely on the meth to get more power I need that slower burn rate to prevent knock AND make the extra power. Less safe, but safe enough for me.

I'd run water/meth on most of the <700rwhp builds if I was doing it again.

MVP'S ZO6

That's not possible.

And if you put the fire out what does that mean? All things being the same water will never make as much power as 100% methanol.

Look gents we can throw all of the internet physics we want into this in the end when it comes to making the most power which is what we do here water injection falls short and its because with taking away the heat with water your also taking away the ability of the charge to burn.

Before doing just water injection try a bigger intercooler.

fotoboy

I did meth on top of corn just for the added safety. No arguing w iat dropping 40 deg on the Dyno just with meth. No ic is goons have that great of a swing. I also have safety set into my tune if the meth does fail.

MVP'S ZO6

Agreed no intercooler is going to provide the iat drop of meth. The point im trying to make here is that whether one is tuning for safety or all out power 100% meth will always he more beneficial.

that is w very smart move to have some wiggle room in your tune.

stevieturbo

What is not possible ?


You could fit the biggest intercooler in the world. It still wont change the fact that if using bad fuel, too high CR, too much boost or any combination of those, knock will prevent you running optimal timing.

Water or meth injection is not simply about cooler charge temperatures.

And if sub 700rwhp...I really wouldnt even bother with any additives. They shouldnt be needed unless the base fuel really is junk.

fotoboy

That's the beauty of e85. Tune leaner on e85 and conservative on timing and if you get some e70 it just goes fat but still safe. All I do is lower fuel pressure to compensate. Car is tuned wo meth so all the meth does is add 1/2 pt af richer which is still in the power window for e85. Safety at 140 iat and 160 to pull timing. Wo meth it will clip 160 on Mexico long pulls with meth won't see 140 iat on same pull.

Not sure how thee is a argument on if a water meth mix wil make more power than on 100% meth? Even my 10 year old knows fuel burns better than water.

stevieturbo

Nobody has said water will make more power. But it can assist with making plenty of power on an otherwise knock limited setup with pump fuel alone.

And you dont add water with the expectation it will burn.

JDS99

When I was 10, i'm pretty sure I mixed fertilizer with water and burned it..

Apocolipse

Charge temp only does so much. Then it relies on the internal temps to prevent further det. This is where water shines. Some people here get it, others probably never will. Have to look at the science behind it instead of dipping your digits in it and thinking that's the proper way to measure cooling effects.

joshtownsend

i tired to dip my wiener in it today.. and the top part was hot but the head was cold... guess ill try to find a 11 inch glass next time because my 8 inch glass dont seem to be big enoguh..


Im been spraying unicorn milk for 6 years..never melted a line..

MVP'S ZO6

Its impossible that water cools just as good or better than methanol.

My point to mentioning w bigger intercooler is all too often guys will dump loads and loads of meth or water meth in an attempt to make up for an inadequate charge cooling system. I understand that there comes a point where intercooler size won't matter and the need for an injection system is the only option. If and when that is the case 100% meth will always always always trump water or a water meth mix whether the intent of the injection system is for cooling or power. This is irrefutable.

MVP'S ZO6

Number's don't lie. By all means sir give your scientific response with data to back it up. Still waiting on your scientific response in the other thread surly you have finished moving by now.

So what your saying is that methanol itself dont actually cool the combustion chamber? If that's what your saying I don't think your correct.

I suppose for now we will have to agree to disagree.