Good news and bad news
09-20-2015, 01:34 AM
#1
Melting Slicks
Thread Starter
Good news and bad news
About a month or so back, I installed the Novi 2200 on my 98 LS1 that had H/C/I previously. Used a wastegate and small pulley to make 580/580. Alas... it appears the broken ring land malady has occurred. I should have forged the bottom end. The wastegate limited the boost to 10psi but I guess the stock stuff couldn't hold that much. Live and learn. And now for the good news. My tuner/mechanic has a Camaro with a 418 LS3 that was built for boost. The owner of that car wants something bigger (LSX and F-1) so he's been trying to sell that LS3 for a while now. Couple of nibbles but no takers. I know this motor very well and its only got dyno pulls and maybe 200 street miles on it (if that many.. I think its been out of the shop twice). And I just bought it for a very fair price. So instead of forging the LS1, I'm moving up into the fast lane where I can let the Novi eat... Stay tuned. 
Last edited by CactusCat; 09-20-2015 at 10:21 AM.
09-20-2015, 10:19 AM
#3
Melting Slicks
Thread Starter
Yes sir, dual injection Alky. Tuner was very careful about making sure I had enough fuel. It's pushing a lot of oil out. More than the catch can can handle. Has bad blow by when you take off the oil filler cap. I didn't rag on it either. Just a few spirited romps on the on ramps, couple of short hits on my test road (never got over 70mph). Always when the engine had warmed up too. Its just one of those things. Ring land breaks are pretty common on the stock pistons from all the reading I've done. Motor runs great and idles fine. No smoke out the tail pipes. Just pushing a lot of oil out so time for some upgrades.
09-20-2015, 10:22 AM
#4
Drifting
It's common from rings butting more than just power breaking them. If more people went into the bottom end and opened up the gaps I'm guessing a lot of problems would go away. Lot of work to do on a stock engine that already in the car though.
09-20-2015, 05:17 PM
#6
Melting Slicks
Yes sir, dual injection Alky. Tuner was very careful about making sure I had enough fuel. It's pushing a lot of oil out. More than the catch can can handle. Has bad blow by when you take off the oil filler cap. I didn't rag on it either. Just a few spirited romps on the on ramps, couple of short hits on my test road (never got over 70mph). Always when the engine had warmed up too. Its just one of those things. Ring land breaks are pretty common on the stock pistons from all the reading I've done. Motor runs great and idles fine. No smoke out the tail pipes. Just pushing a lot of oil out so time for some upgrades.
Good luck with new motor sounds like the timing worked out for you. 
hope your trans is up to the extra power or that's next!
09-20-2015, 08:30 PM
#7
Melting Slicks
Thread Starter
Well... maybe just a little over 70 
. To be truthful, I was learning how to drive it. Traction had become a serious issue, so I was mostly learning how to launch the darn thing. I'm running Toyo Proxes TQs and they stick pretty well, but that darn wastegate/centri combo creates so much torque early....way too easy to light em up. Obviously, I'll have an even tougher task with the 418.
Appreciate the heads up on the tranny but that was taken care of about a year ago in anticipation of this. Its rated to hold 750hp. Since I live here in OKC (yeah, the 405 - and yes I do know some of those guys on TV), I knew that those Farmtruck guys use a shop in Yukon. They've got a good rep and I used them to build the trans (I told him he had total freedom to do what he wanted). It works very well. And when I was doing the tranny, I installed an ECS 3.42 diff, supposed to be good to 1000hp. Think I'll be ok. My guess is the torque tube might be the weakest link.
. To be truthful, I was learning how to drive it. Traction had become a serious issue, so I was mostly learning how to launch the darn thing. I'm running Toyo Proxes TQs and they stick pretty well, but that darn wastegate/centri combo creates so much torque early....way too easy to light em up. Obviously, I'll have an even tougher task with the 418. Appreciate the heads up on the tranny but that was taken care of about a year ago in anticipation of this. Its rated to hold 750hp. Since I live here in OKC (yeah, the 405 - and yes I do know some of those guys on TV), I knew that those Farmtruck guys use a shop in Yukon. They've got a good rep and I used them to build the trans (I told him he had total freedom to do what he wanted). It works very well. And when I was doing the tranny, I installed an ECS 3.42 diff, supposed to be good to 1000hp. Think I'll be ok. My guess is the torque tube might be the weakest link.
09-21-2015, 04:29 PM
#8
Melting Slicks
Things happen...I randomly broke a ls7 timing chain on my stock bottom end LS6. Just makes a good excuse to build her up. I was upset when mine broke but happy with my forged motor and 100+hp now Heres to a speedy recovery 
I would certainly check out your torque tube. Mine had weak couplers which had shown signs of rubbing. I ended up replacing my driveshaft with the drive shaft shop carbor fiber shaft ( no couplers required) and am thrilled. If everything in yours is ok I would suggest OEM C5, OEM ZR1, or DSS Poly couplers at the least.
Heres to a speedy recovery I would certainly check out your torque tube. Mine had weak couplers which had shown signs of rubbing. I ended up replacing my driveshaft with the drive shaft shop carbor fiber shaft ( no couplers required) and am thrilled. If everything in yours is ok I would suggest OEM C5, OEM ZR1, or DSS Poly couplers at the least.
Last edited by PEETYZ; 09-21-2015 at 04:33 PM.
09-21-2015, 09:52 PM
#9
Melting Slicks
Thread Starter
Things happen...I randomly broke a ls7 timing chain on my stock bottom end LS6. Just makes a good excuse to build her up. I was upset when mine broke but happy with my forged motor and 100+hp now Heres to a speedy recovery
I would certainly check out your torque tube. Mine had weak couplers which had shown signs of rubbing. I ended up replacing my driveshaft with the drive shaft shop carbor fiber shaft ( no couplers required) and am thrilled. If everything in yours is ok I would suggest OEM C5, OEM ZR1, or DSS Poly couplers at the least.
Heres to a speedy recovery I would certainly check out your torque tube. Mine had weak couplers which had shown signs of rubbing. I ended up replacing my driveshaft with the drive shaft shop carbor fiber shaft ( no couplers required) and am thrilled. If everything in yours is ok I would suggest OEM C5, OEM ZR1, or DSS Poly couplers at the least.
Last edited by CactusCat; 09-21-2015 at 09:55 PM.
10-06-2015, 11:14 PM
#10
Drifting
I'm running a similar set up as you,'98 H/C/I and supercharger (probably near 600whp). I beat the $h!t out of my car and I've made a lot of mistakes and the stock bottom end is holding together thus far. I've run boost super lean (12.5+) with way too much timing (28*) and bounce off the rev limiter constantly.
These are union built motors, my guess is that yours was assembled by 22 year old woman at 5:00pm on a friday.
Mine was built on a Tuesday afternoon by an engineering grad trying to make a name for himself.
I'm running the stock A4 with a Yank SS3600 w/ 3:42 rear and it is holding together just fine as well.
When mine finally goes, I'm dropping in a forged iron block 346 and going for 30psi.
Some people just get lucky. Back in the day I ran a junk yard cast dish piston, 2 bolt main, 350 with enough N20 to push my 71 chevelle into the 10s. I reved that POS to 7000 rpm every saturday night. Never blew. Sold it and years later I find out the car was still running high 10s on that same junk motor. Just got lucky. Yours eating itself with "only" 600hp...thats unlucky.
These are union built motors, my guess is that yours was assembled by 22 year old woman at 5:00pm on a friday.
Mine was built on a Tuesday afternoon by an engineering grad trying to make a name for himself. I'm running the stock A4 with a Yank SS3600 w/ 3:42 rear and it is holding together just fine as well.
When mine finally goes, I'm dropping in a forged iron block 346 and going for 30psi.
Some people just get lucky. Back in the day I ran a junk yard cast dish piston, 2 bolt main, 350 with enough N20 to push my 71 chevelle into the 10s. I reved that POS to 7000 rpm every saturday night. Never blew. Sold it and years later I find out the car was still running high 10s on that same junk motor. Just got lucky. Yours eating itself with "only" 600hp...thats unlucky.
Last edited by reactor2; 10-06-2015 at 11:29 PM.
10-06-2015, 11:35 PM
#11
Drifting
Yes sir, dual injection Alky. Tuner was very careful about making sure I had enough fuel. It's pushing a lot of oil out. More than the catch can can handle. Has bad blow by when you take off the oil filler cap. I didn't rag on it either. Just a few spirited romps on the on ramps, couple of short hits on my test road (never got over 70mph). Always when the engine had warmed up too. Its just one of those things. Ring land breaks are pretty common on the stock pistons from all the reading I've done. Motor runs great and idles fine. No smoke out the tail pipes. Just pushing a lot of oil out so time for some upgrades.
Do a compression test, I bet you're fine. Seems unlikely that you've lost a ring(s) and your pushing oil but not burning any. These motors take a lot. There's a guy in the forum that ran 9.18 on a stock bottom end. 580whp is nothing.
Last edited by reactor2; 10-06-2015 at 11:38 PM.
10-07-2015, 08:29 AM
#12
Melting Slicks
Thread Starter
I agree. I did a lot of research before going the route I did. It was a calculated risk. I saw so many that were doing just fine on the stock bottom end, I figured I'd be ok too. The wastegate setup limits boost to 10psi. It bleeds off the rest so figured I'd be safe.
Yes, the motor is well vented as well. I wish you were correct but all the signs are there. Low oil pressure at idle (19psi), I can fill up the catch can in very short order, bad blow by when you take the oil filler cap off at idle. Probably the cause was that when I was only H/C/I, the heads were milled to make 11:1 compression. My tuner and I talked it over for a long time before deciding it would probably be ok as long as we limited boost. My bet is that is the culprit.
The new 418 LS3 is forged, 9.5:1 compression, and makes over 750rwhp on 10.5psi of boost. With mine already preset at 10psi with the wastegate, I should be in the 700rwhp range and be very safe this time. There is lots of room for upping the boost if desired. Car will be going into the shop in a couple of weeks and I'll report what is found.
Yes, the motor is well vented as well. I wish you were correct but all the signs are there. Low oil pressure at idle (19psi), I can fill up the catch can in very short order, bad blow by when you take the oil filler cap off at idle. Probably the cause was that when I was only H/C/I, the heads were milled to make 11:1 compression. My tuner and I talked it over for a long time before deciding it would probably be ok as long as we limited boost. My bet is that is the culprit.
The new 418 LS3 is forged, 9.5:1 compression, and makes over 750rwhp on 10.5psi of boost. With mine already preset at 10psi with the wastegate, I should be in the 700rwhp range and be very safe this time. There is lots of room for upping the boost if desired. Car will be going into the shop in a couple of weeks and I'll report what is found.
10-07-2015, 10:30 AM
#14
Drifting
I agree. I did a lot of research before going the route I did. It was a calculated risk. I saw so many that were doing just fine on the stock bottom end, I figured I'd be ok too. The wastegate setup limits boost to 10psi. It bleeds off the rest so figured I'd be safe.
Yes, the motor is well vented as well. I wish you were correct but all the signs are there. Low oil pressure at idle (19psi), I can fill up the catch can in very short order, bad blow by when you take the oil filler cap off at idle. Probably the cause was that when I was only H/C/I, the heads were milled to make 11:1 compression. My tuner and I talked it over for a long time before deciding it would probably be ok as long as we limited boost. My bet is that is the culprit.
The new 418 LS3 is forged, 9.5:1 compression, and makes over 750rwhp on 10.5psi of boost. With mine already preset at 10psi with the wastegate, I should be in the 700rwhp range and be very safe this time. There is lots of room for upping the boost if desired. Car will be going into the shop in a couple of weeks and I'll report what is found.
Yes, the motor is well vented as well. I wish you were correct but all the signs are there. Low oil pressure at idle (19psi), I can fill up the catch can in very short order, bad blow by when you take the oil filler cap off at idle. Probably the cause was that when I was only H/C/I, the heads were milled to make 11:1 compression. My tuner and I talked it over for a long time before deciding it would probably be ok as long as we limited boost. My bet is that is the culprit.
The new 418 LS3 is forged, 9.5:1 compression, and makes over 750rwhp on 10.5psi of boost. With mine already preset at 10psi with the wastegate, I should be in the 700rwhp range and be very safe this time. There is lots of room for upping the boost if desired. Car will be going into the shop in a couple of weeks and I'll report what is found.
I'm running ~11:1 as well (Dart heads). Make sure you've got check valves to keep the boost out of your motor as well. Before I installed a catch can I was getting oil pushed into by air cleaner (a lot of it).
Before you throw in the towel on that motor do a compression test, I still think you're probably ok. Keep the 418 of course, as its an awesome motor, but don't pull the motor because you have a little bit of blow by, take that waste gate off and see what that thing can handle!
I did all the work (mechanical and tuning) on my car and I learned a lot. I'm not running meth (just 93 octane + octane boost) and I've run lean, had some nice spark knock, etc. My motor is holding together so its hard to believe a similar setup (even provided my union built motor theory) destroyed the motor with such mild use.
Its hard to believe you aren't burning oil with bad rings, sounds more likely you don't have the proper check valves in place.
Yeah, post your tune file if you can.
10-07-2015, 05:02 PM
#15
Drifting
Back in the day, I had a buddy that ran a high compression mopar engine in his duster (~15:1 if I remember correctly). On an initial test pass he ran stock valve covers and stock breathers (I think he may have run just one breather). After a short pass smoke was coming out from under the hood. There was so much pressure in the engine it pushed several quarts of oil out of the dipstick tube and threw it all over the engine. He ended up running a crankcase evacuation system to keep the pressure down. The car ran low 10s.
You're running high compression and high boost, i wonder if you've got the same issue cooking as my buddy did? What kind of boost are you seeing at partial/full throttle? Are you basically at 10psi all the time under 2/3 throttle and up? No doubt your squeezing pressure past the rings (we all are).
Just a thought.
You're running high compression and high boost, i wonder if you've got the same issue cooking as my buddy did? What kind of boost are you seeing at partial/full throttle? Are you basically at 10psi all the time under 2/3 throttle and up? No doubt your squeezing pressure past the rings (we all are).
Just a thought.
10-07-2015, 05:34 PM
#16
Melting Slicks
Thread Starter
I'll do a compression test in the next few days and see what that shows. You've definitely got me curious. However, the blow by at idle can even be seen coming out of the breathers. One short romp and the empty catch can was full (and its installed correctly, verified by the tuner and same as the instructions from Mighty Mouse - the check valves are working properly). When the BOV kicks in when you let off, a big ol' cloud of oil mist is seen (my BOV and wastegate are in the front bumper, passenger side) coming out of the right front area. It doesn't look good and its getting oil on everything (but I can clean that up). We'll see what the compression test shows.
10-16-2015, 01:05 AM
#19
Melting Slicks
Thread Starter
Due to tuner being in the hospital and current shop load, probably two weeks out (at least, maybe more) before I get the lowdown. On a side note, wifey has me doing new hardwood floors in the house and she's using up virtually all of my spare time. (You know the saying... happy wife, happy life) so I'm just plodding along. I'll report here as soon as I have the info. Appreciate you asking.