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Stock Rocker Trunion replacement

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Old 07-15-2017, 05:29 AM   #1
BURL
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Default Stock Rocker Trunion replacement

Guys I know this has been beat to death cause I'v read about 100 posts - but nothing recently. My concern is the stock needles vs Comp Cams Trunion kit vs whoever's bushing kit. Budget is low so no new roller rockers.

My built is soon to start _ Ls1, LS6 heads, full bolt-on's, Centri at 10 - 15 PSI, mild cam - 220 - 224 intake lift / 228 - 230 exh , .595 - .600 lift, running Brian Tooley Platinum springs 155 lbs @ 1.780", 380 lbs @ 1.180", engine will held to max of 6200 - 6300 RPM, mostly street - occasional drag.

I purchased a new in the box Comp Cams trunion rebuild set about 10 months ago from a forum member. Have not installed it yet - still time to change my mind. What is the latest general conclusion about stock needle bearings vs CCam needle bearings vs bushings? I though I read something about CCams having some issues with their trunion rebuild kit but can't find that info now.

So what is the latest opinion on this issue? Which would be preferred at my build level? Engine builders please jump in. BlownBlue , MVPZ06 and other tech savvy guys what say you?

Thanks

Last edited by BURL; 07-15-2017 at 05:32 AM. Reason: wording correction
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Old 07-15-2017, 06:48 AM   #2
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Bushing kit all the way. Did it months ago when I put mine back together. It's easy to do and I have seen no negative posts. I bought the Bret (blown blue as you call him).
GL
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Old 07-15-2017, 07:51 AM   #3
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I've had the Comp kit in my car for about 10k with no issues but I've heard great things about the Straub bushings
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Old 07-15-2017, 03:44 PM   #4
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have you taken them apart to look at them?... chances are they will have some wear even with low mileage and moreso if you have a cam... I made a thread awhile back showing how mine looked but all the pics won't work because of damn photobucket... I ended up replacing them with straub bushings and will never recommend the comp kit to anyone

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Old 07-15-2017, 03:58 PM   #5
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I remember that thread.. That is why I still have a New Comp kit sitting in my shop
It sucks photobucket screwed that up
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Old 07-15-2017, 04:06 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neutron82 View Post
have you taken them apart to look at them?... chances are they will have some wear even with low mileage and moreso if you have a cam... I made a thread awhile back showing how mine looked but all the pics won't work because of damn photobucket... I ended up replacing them with straub bushings and will never recommend the comp kit to anyone
This is going to be a new build. The car has 60K on it and is completely stock and running so I haven't looked at the current bearings. Many people including builders turbo companies say the bearing will work fine although I not sure if they are including the Comp Cams upgrade bearings in the statement. My cam duration and ramp will be relatively mild. My main concern was with the .600 lift an the Brian Tooley .660 Platinum double springs. These springs were on the heads when I purchased them but they are new.

Could you email some of the pics? Were you running a cam and springs before the inspection? If so please give specs. And what oil were you using.
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Old 07-15-2017, 04:06 PM   #7
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yeah I'm not paying photobucket $400 a year, they can suck a fat one... just need to find another way to post pics I guess
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Old 07-15-2017, 04:23 PM   #8
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Quote:
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yeah I'm not paying photobucket $400 a year, they can suck a fat one... just need to find another way to post pics I guess
Imgur is another source for hosting. I have been using it for my build thread.
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Old 07-15-2017, 04:32 PM   #9
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yeah I'm not paying photobucket $400 a year, they can suck a fat one... just need to find another way to post pics I guess
Just use the Go Advanced feature here..
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Old 07-15-2017, 08:14 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Smoken1 View Post
Just use the Go Advanced feature here..
forgot about that haha

Quote:
Originally Posted by BURL View Post
This is going to be a new build. The car has 60K on it and is completely stock and running so I haven't looked at the current bearings. Many people including builders turbo companies say the bearing will work fine although I not sure if they are including the Comp Cams upgrade bearings in the statement. My cam duration and ramp will be relatively mild. My main concern was with the .600 lift an the Brian Tooley .660 Platinum double springs. These springs were on the heads when I purchased them but they are new.

Could you email some of the pics? Were you running a cam and springs before the inspection? If so please give specs. And what oil were you using.
the comp trunnions went in at the same time as my cam and springs... springs are pac 1518 and the cam is 230/236 .573/.578 and 115lsa... when first installed I was using mobil1 but have since switched to redline, both 5w30... I attached a couple of pics to show what the comp's looked like when removed
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Last edited by neutron82; 07-15-2017 at 08:15 PM.
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Old 07-15-2017, 10:06 PM   #11
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Default Trunions

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Originally Posted by neutron82 View Post
forgot about that haha



the comp trunnions went in at the same time as my cam and springs... springs are pac 1518 and the cam is 230/236 .573/.578 and 115lsa... when first installed I was using mobil1 but have since switched to redline, both 5w30... I attached a couple of pics to show what the comp's looked like when removed
That's some serious failure. That appears to be what I call a gald.
Your lift with those springs shouldn't have done this. Questions - 1. Is that galded area on the trunion showing metal transferred away from the trunion or is is metal deposited onto the trunions from the bearings. 2. How many miles on the trunion up grade when pulled? 3. Did you switch to Redline before or after pulling the rockers for inspection. Thanks
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Old 07-16-2017, 12:23 AM   #12
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There are many cases of the comp upgrade failing. I wouldn't put them in my car, that's for sure.

You asked !! Now it's up to you.
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Old 07-16-2017, 09:31 AM   #13
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There are many cases of the comp upgrade failing. I wouldn't put them in my car, that's for sure.

You asked !! Now it's up to you.
That is part of my decision problem. People keep saying there are "many" or "lots of cases" but I can only find very few cases. But these few cases were very vocal (rightly so) about the failures and it got spread all over the forums due to many question/answers to the point it may have seemed like a lot of failures. I'm not making excuses for Comp Cams. Just trying to make the correct decision. A lot of big name builders still say the Comp Cam upgrade is OK until you get to extremes of lift, spring pressure etc. So I'm just trying to get the latest group thinking.

The only reason I am not yet totally sold on the bushings is that there's not a lot of data in on them and I have been wondering how they would compare to the needles in rocker arm friction and wear over time. If it weren't for these questions in my mind I'd just opt for the bushing and move on.
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Old 07-16-2017, 10:03 AM   #14
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Default Trunions bearings vs bushings

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There are many cases of the comp upgrade failing. I wouldn't put them in my car, that's for sure.

You asked !! Now it's up to you.
That is part of my decision problem. People keep saying there are "many" or "lots of cases" but I can only find very few cases. But these few cases were very vocal (rightly so) about the failures and it got spread all over the forums due to many question/answers to the point it may have seemed like a lot of failures. I'm not making excuses for Comp Cams. Just trying to make the correct decision. A lot of big name builders still say the Comp Cam upgrade is OK until you get to extremes of lift, spring pressure etc. So I'm just trying to get the latest group thinking.

The only reason I am not yet totally sold on the bushings is that there's not a lot of data in on them and I have been wondering how they would compare to the needles in rocker arm friction and wear over time. If it weren't for these questions in my mind I'd just opt for the bushing and move on.
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Old 07-16-2017, 03:38 PM   #15
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My comps failed at low mileage. They looked like Neutron's. Cam was only a 228r. I noticed metal in my oil filter and that convinced me to pull the comps and take a look.

I replaced them with the CHE bushing kit. I didn't think the valve train was noisy before but wow is it quite now.

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Old 07-16-2017, 11:06 PM   #16
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Default Trunions and stuff

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My comps failed at low mileage. They looked like Neutron's. Cam was only a 228r. I noticed metal in my oil filter and that convinced me to pull the comps and take a look.

I replaced them with the CHE bushing kit. I didn't think the valve train was noisy before but wow is it quite now.
I asked Neutro the follwing questions:
"Your lift with those springs shouldn't have done this. Questions - 1. Is that galded area on the trunion showing metal transferred away from the trunion or is is metal deposited onto the trunions from the bearings. 2. How many miles on the trunion up grade when pulled? 3. Did you switch to Redline before or after pulling the rockers for inspection."

He hasn't replied. I hope he does as his answers might indicate whether the bearings failed or whether it was actually the trunion that failed.

As an aside you said you found metal in your filter. There is a cheap hack to help in case you lose/trash an internal component. a cheap source for an extremely strong magnet is inside an old computer hard drive. Take the hard drive apart and pull out the magnet. Poke the internals and it will be damn obvious where the magnet is located. It'l be hard to get your screwdriver back. Old, larger hard drives have a larger magnet. Far, far stronger than an oil pan plug magnet. Use a clamp as a safety net against the magnet falling of (ain't gonna happen) and put one of these magnets on your oil filter. When you change the filter switch the magnet to the new filter. These magnets are so strong that you can hardly pull them off a piece of steel with you hands. I guarantee nothing ferrous (steel particles) will get past the magnet and pass on thru the filter.

We used to put magnets on the oil pan of Gen I small blocks.too but kinda hard to do on aluminum pan unless you epoxy around the edges of the magnet. I have also seen magnets epoxied ahead of the oil drain passages in the head to capture metal on Gen I stuff. At times we also epoxied screens over the oil drain back holes to capture metal in the head before it reached the oil pan - especially in the 10,000 RPM drag racing small blocks.

Needle bearing failure is not a new problem.
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Old 07-17-2017, 12:04 PM   #17
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I still have these at work so I wanted to look at them closer before I answered back... the trunnions themselves appear to be worn and not metal deposited onto them from the bearings... the bearings fall out when you disassemble the rockers but I haven't been able to detect any wear on them, it's all on the trunnion... I did notice that the bearings do not span the whole width of the race, look at the pic I attached and you can see a considerable gap that would allow the bearings to slide back and forth... now if this has anything to do with them failing I have no idea but it was just an observation... as far as the oil I was using mobil1 when they first went in and switched to redline somewhere in between the time they were installed and when I took them out but I don't think that really has anything to do with them failing... I think it is either a hardness issue in the trunnion or lack of oiling that causes them to fail, if you look at the straub trunnions they have grooves machined into them that allow oil to get to the bottom of the trunnion... mine also had less than 10k miles when they were removed, I'd guess more like 7-8k but I don't have an exact number... I tried to contact comp and the first person I spoke to said they had a set on their car with a larger cam than me for 30k miles and no issues... but that's the thing, no one really knows that they are wearing until they are removed and inspected... they acted like this was the first time they had ever heard of the issue and passed me around to a few different people and then ultimately quit replying so I just left it at that... there is a big thread on ls1tech about these failing and I know I'm not the first person to contact comp about it so to deny the whole thing and keep selling those kits tells me they don't really care
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Old 07-17-2017, 04:00 PM   #18
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That is part of my decision problem. People keep saying there are "many" or "lots of cases" but I can only find very few cases. But these few cases were very vocal (rightly so) about the failures and it got spread all over the forums due to many question/answers to the point it may have seemed like a lot of failures. I'm not making excuses for Comp Cams. Just trying to make the correct decision. A lot of big name builders still say the Comp Cam upgrade is OK until you get to extremes of lift, spring pressure etc. So I'm just trying to get the latest group thinking.

The only reason I am not yet totally sold on the bushings is that there's not a lot of data in on them and I have been wondering how they would compare to the needles in rocker arm friction and wear over time. If it weren't for these questions in my mind I'd just opt for the bushing and move on.
If you dig around you will fiind plenty of cases of failure, and its also one of those things that in many cases can be on the way to failure, and most users wouldn't even know.
Cant speak about the bushings much, but the few cases ive seen of them being checked after some use, shows that they didn't wear noticeably.
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Old 07-17-2017, 04:14 PM   #19
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Mine looked like Neut's with about 4kmi on them. I was using Mobile 1 High Mileage oil. There was no metal transfer. I thought I could see (with magnifying glass) some marks on the bearing rollers but its tough to tell.

I have the equipment to measure the trunnion hardness and scanning electron microscope to examine the rollers, just need to find the time ...
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Old 07-17-2017, 04:58 PM   #20
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I have the equipment to measure the trunnion hardness and scanning electron microscope to examine the rollers, just need to find the time ...
that would be cool, I would even offer to send mine to you to use as a comparison and maybe somehow you could get your hands on a newer set to see if anything has changed
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