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450 install in Early C5 canister

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Old 01-08-2018, 07:30 AM
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SmoothFRC
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Default 450 install in Early C5 canister

A few people have claimed to install a 450 into the stock early c5 canisters Ė but Iíve not found any pictures or real meat of how this was done. As I want/need to uplift my 255lph anyway, I decided to give this a go and figure it out along the way. The below is not a finished product, but itís mostly there and hopefully may be helpful to others.

Disclaimer Ė I am not a c5 fuel system expert. The 99-early 03 system has itís shortfalls with the regulator being in the fuel filter. Installing a larger pump is not going to fix this issue Ė having a return at the rail is the best way (IMHO) to ensure steady pressure to the rail with the right sized fuel pump. The stock 97-98 system has worked very well for me.

I had a spare LPE canister laying around, so decided to pick up a 450 pump (F90000274, high pressure e85 version of 450) with generic install kit and see if I could make this work. As an FYI, Walboro has spun off the fuel pump business to ĎTI Automotiveí.

After unboxing, itís obvious the 450 is shorter and wider (at the inlet) than the stock/340 pump. It also does not have the Ďjet pumpí, which I believe is required to consume fuel from within the canister* (remember, I am no c5 fuel system expert). My goal is basically to use the stock canister as a bracket to hold the larger pump and try to leverage the stock fuel sock, knowing Iíll lose the proper function of the canister in terms of fuel sloshing/road racing. Many folks just accept this up and ensure they keep more than 1/4 tank of fuel to ensure they are not sucking up air.

First stab at fitting the pump, the inlet is smaller on the 450 than it is on the 340 with the siphon pump. I believe this is due to the siphon pump configuration itself. This creates an issue to connect to the stock fuel sock, as inlet on the grommet in the canister is too big. I imagine this is where some folks have just cut open the bottom of the canister and used an aftermarket fuel sock.

The install kit for the 450 came with a fuel sock/filter that is a slip fit onto the 450 inlet. I grabbed the canister grommet and noticed the outer filter fitting was a snug fit inside the grommet. I cut away the filter and modified the filter fitting to act as an adapter for the canister grommet. Pictures are worth 1000 words, so look through the album below to see what I am trying to explain.

A dremel is key here Ė I made a few modifications to make the above work Ė I shaved off the little nipple/rod that is next to the 450 inlet Ė this is to hold a filter in place, but as Iím using the canister, it was just in the way and would not allow the pump to sit flush with the grommet. Also in the pictures you can see why/how I modified the adapter fitting, as without modification, the fitting only goes into the grommet about ľ ď and will make the pump feel wobbly inside the canister. After grinding the fitting down it now goes all the way through the grommet and the pump is mounted SOLID.

As for the canister Ė in the pics you can see I cut a window at the bottom to see how things were fitting Ė Iím confident with the fitting modifications, this could be fitted in a stock canister without having to cut it. The main issue/remaining issue is the top canister piece. This is difficult to work with given the tight clearances of the canister and the ribbed plastic rings to hold the top in place. I ended up shaving off all the plastic ribbing (including at the bottom near the pump to allow the pump to rotate to the edge of the canister). This makes it certainly easier to move the top up and down and rotate around while dealing with fitment. The black upper pump sleeve fits the 450 snugly, this should be used to help keep the pump mounted straight up and down. It takes a little time rotating around the pump and the top to get this bit right Ė as the inlet on the pump is offset, I try to show in the picture how the pump is rotated in the canister to be as close to the side as possible. This is because the canister top pump opening is located on the outer edge. As the pump is a little wider at the bottom, the pump cannot be rotated ALL the way to the edge for 100% straight mounting, but itís pretty close and the black upper pump grommet holds it in place. The only thing left is how to secure the top after fitting in its final location. Iím thinking maybe a few aluminum rivets or even a few self taping stainless screws.

This is where I am up to at the moment.

Pictures are uploaded in reverse, so start from the bottom and work your way up 😊

https://www.corvetteforum.com/g/album/8973483

*So Ė a question for the experts out thereÖ Iím contemplating what to do with the canister nowÖ meaning Ė since the pump is not siphoning from it, should I leave it cut open and even put a drain hole on the bottom (I purposely cut the top to keep the pump submerged as much as possible). My thinking is: I can use the rubber line that came with the install kit and redirect/force the return fuel into the bucket to keep fuel IN there, but Iím wondering if the returned fuel would actually cause the pump to heat up fasterÖ the returned fuel is going to be warmer than the fuel in the tank, and if it has no way of circulating OUT of the canister, am I creating a situation where the pump will be unnecessarily heated up.

I understand this particular pump promotes better hot fuel performance, but just wondering if I am over thinking this.

The other benefit to forcing the return fuel is to ensure the pump is not exposed to air in a low fuel situationÖ.

As mentioned, not a final product, but I think itís 90% there. I have maybe 2 hours into this, not a large amount of work. Hopefully this may prove helpful to others.

Thoughts, comments, suggestions?

John
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Old 01-08-2018, 11:07 AM
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junk c5
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I never got the Walbro 450 or Stealth 340 to work in a factory 1999 canister. No matter how much of the canister I cut to allow ample fuel to be collected, It would still drop fuel pressure after a few minutes of running.

My fix was a Bosch 044 externally mounted and a mangafuel 4303 externally mounted on a hobs switch.
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Old 01-08-2018, 11:12 AM
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Originally Posted by junk c5 View Post
I never got the Walbro 450 or Stealth 340 to work in a factory 1999 canister. No matter how much of the canister I cut to allow ample fuel to be collected, It would still drop fuel pressure after a few minutes of running.

My fix was a Bosch 044 externally mounted and a mangafuel 4303 externally mounted on a hobs switch.
With the above, it's pulling the fuel from the stock fuel sock, not from inside the canister. The canister is basically acting as a hanger at this point.

did you have those pump's hooked up to the canister fuel sock or were they using their own filter INSIDE of the canister?
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Old 01-08-2018, 12:00 PM
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Originally Posted by SmoothFRC View Post
With the above, it's pulling the fuel from the stock fuel sock, not from inside the canister. The canister is basically acting as a hanger at this point.

did you have those pump's hooked up to the canister fuel sock or were they using their own filter INSIDE of the canister?
I ended up cutting the entire bottom off of the canister. I tried countless combinations of socks and my last combination was with the canister bottom cut off and I used the sock which came with the pump. I canít imagine it wasnít getting enough fuel the way I arranged it the last time. It was essentially unrestricted and at the bottom of 6 gallons of fuel.
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Old 01-08-2018, 12:07 PM
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I ended up completely butchering my canister. I had the pump out about a dozen times. By the end it was pretty much just a hanger.


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Old 01-08-2018, 12:25 PM
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Damn... my lpe 255 has been flawless, hard to imagine you had those issues pulling with no canister.
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Old 01-08-2018, 03:08 PM
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Originally Posted by SmoothFRC View Post
Damn... my lpe 255 has been flawless, hard to imagine you had those issues pulling with no canister.
With 2 different pumps non the less. Hopefully your results are better. After talking to Walbro, Iím thinking the -10 return in the bottom of the tank was somehow causing cavitation. The fuel system operated properly for the 1st few minutes of being started.
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Old 01-08-2018, 04:06 PM
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I am not sure why so many people on here go through all the fusss with a internal and external fuel pump,just hook up a couple of pumps like the one in the pic and call the end,good for 1000 HP (its easy to do) .
Or get one from lonnies prf for around $700.00

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Old 01-08-2018, 04:42 PM
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I can’t tell which pumps does are. It’s hard to determine if they will support 1000 rear wheel horsepower on E85. That’s my ultimate goal, fortunately, I don’t need to make 1000 to the tire to be fast.

Last edited by junk c5; 01-08-2018 at 04:43 PM.
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Old 01-08-2018, 05:11 PM
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Two 450's will support 1000 rear hp

I'm not looking to make 1000 - I'm currently at 625 with a lpe 255 and 1:1 adjustable FPR set at a base of 52psi. I do run meth, not running a BAP and my pressure's are fine with the existing setup. They run about ~60 or so psi peak boost.

I started to look down the dual pump route but honestly did not want to deal with the complexity of adding a hobbs switch for the second pump, and I'd be ditching the canister setup, etc.. Just felt with the e85 450 pump, that this would be plenty for what I am looking to do, while keeping it simple. Not to mention the single 450 in the stock canister was only $~135 and a few hours of my time.

Hell, I'd probably get away with just throwing a BAP on my existing setup and be fine with my goals - but the 450 is meant to quieter, run more efficient and support more than what I am after. Felt like a no-brainer as it takes out the complexity of additional electronics and other items that could fail (Hobbs, second pump, etc.).

Worst case I'll ditch the canister all together - find someone who can weld a rod on the stock fuel hanger and go from there.

I am looking to push this all through the stock 97/8 lines... hopefully that will not be a problem.
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Old 01-08-2018, 05:50 PM
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Originally Posted by SmoothFRC View Post
Two 450's will support 1000 rear hp

I'm not looking to make 1000 - I'm currently at 625 with a lpe 255 and 1:1 adjustable FPR set at a base of 52psi. I do run meth, not running a BAP and my pressure's are fine with the existing setup. They run about ~60 or so psi peak boost.

I started to look down the dual pump route but honestly did not want to deal with the complexity of adding a hobbs switch for the second pump, and I'd be ditching the canister setup, etc.. Just felt with the e85 450 pump, that this would be plenty for what I am looking to do, while keeping it simple. Not to mention the single 450 in the stock canister was only $~135 and a few hours of my time.

Hell, I'd probably get away with just throwing a BAP on my existing setup and be fine with my goals - but the 450 is meant to quieter, run more efficient and support more than what I am after. Felt like a no-brainer as it takes out the complexity of additional electronics and other items that could fail (Hobbs, second pump, etc.).

Worst case I'll ditch the canister all together - find someone who can weld a rod on the stock fuel hanger and go from there.

I am looking to push this all through the stock 97/8 lines... hopefully that will not be a problem.

I’d like to see how your 450 swap goes . Maybe my experience was a fluke as people have successfully done it. If I had to do it again, I’d do dual 450’s and fabricate my own hanger and hat. There’s nothing wrong with the way I did mine, just a lot of bulkheads drilled into the tank. I’ve probably got enough fuel system to support 1200 RWHP on E85.

IDK how much the factory line will support. I’ve got -10 on the 4303 and the Bosch 044 is using the factory line.

Last edited by junk c5; 01-08-2018 at 05:54 PM.
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Old 01-08-2018, 08:31 PM
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Originally Posted by junk c5 View Post
Iíd like to see how your 450 swap goes . Maybe my experience was a fluke as people have successfully done it. If I had to do it again, Iíd do dual 450ís and fabricate my own hanger and hat. Thereís nothing wrong with the way I did mine, just a lot of bulkheads drilled into the tank. Iíve probably got enough fuel system to support 1200 RWHP on E85.

IDK how much the factory line will support. Iíve got -10 on the 4303 and the Bosch 044 is using the factory line.
Any pics of your setup? Plumbing at the rails or the pumps?

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Old 01-08-2018, 10:21 PM
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Here some terrible pictures and a crude drawing as I eat popcorn and drink beer .







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Old 01-08-2018, 10:27 PM
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How much power are you making? Iím trying to decide if I want to ďYĒ into the fuel rails or deadhead it like you have there
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Old 01-08-2018, 10:28 PM
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For the bulkheads I used a specific aluminum and rubber lined washer on both sides of the tank. I also found a petroleum resident RTV for extra protection. It leaks ZERO !!!! Not even a drop .
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Old 01-08-2018, 10:32 PM
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Originally Posted by S400z06 View Post
How much power are you making? I’m trying to decide if I want to “Y” into the fuel rails or deadhead it like you have there
I’m currently at 700 RWHP. Next month I’m gonna turn it up to 850 RWHP. After I do some torque tube work and trans bracing I’ll likely turn it up to 1000 RWHP. If I really feel froggy, one day I’ll do an aftermarket head and shoot for 1150-1200. This is my “ streetcar”. I’ve got a 1200 RWHP NOS Drag car in the garage.


PS..... The magnafuel pump is on a Hobbs switch

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Old 01-08-2018, 11:25 PM
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https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums...fuel-pump.html
I did mine a little differently, if you scroll down this thread you'll see all of my install pics. Once I ditched the returnless system and stock fuel filter/regulator I never had a problem losing pressure. I haven't pushed it to the limits yet either though.

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Old 01-09-2018, 07:34 AM
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Jimbo - that was how I was going to do it if i couldn't get the stock sock setup to work. Looks a little 'easier' than having to shave all the plastic inside the tank -

Do you have any problem with pressure bleed off after the car is shut off? This is one of the reasons I wanted to keep the stock sock setup, as it has that check valve in the bottom of the canister... this should keep the pressure up in between start up's.

Think we're all in agreement at this point that the canister is just acting as a hanger. The return fuel will still pump into the canister and would have the benefit of 'cooling' the pump, just need to ensure I put a relatively small drain hole on the bottom to keep the fluid flowing.

The 97/8 rails is a great setup for those looking to keep it looking stock. I believe Arun or others mentioned they pushed it to 1000 rwhp, not sure if that was through the stock fuel lines though.

I think this is one of those areas that are over thought for those under 1000 hp . Trying to keep it simple....

Last edited by SmoothFRC; 01-09-2018 at 07:41 AM.
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Old 01-09-2018, 08:14 AM
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I haven't had any issues with pressure bleed off between starts. It literally fires up within a second of cranking.

I love the 97-98 rail system. The little fpr at the rail keeps pressure right at 61psi. Unlike the 99 and later regulator in the filter which the 450 would overrun. I plan to keep it regardless of power level. I may end up running a second fuel pump externally using the ECS bulkhead plate and Y it in to the feed line. Maybe run a hobbs switch so it's not on all the time.
Originally Posted by SmoothFRC View Post
Jimbo - that was how I was going to do it if i couldn't get the stock sock setup to work. Looks a little 'easier' than having to shave all the plastic inside the tank -

Do you have any problem with pressure bleed off after the car is shut off? This is one of the reasons I wanted to keep the stock sock setup, as it has that check valve in the bottom of the canister... this should keep the pressure up in between start up's.

Think we're all in agreement at this point that the canister is just acting as a hanger. The return fuel will still pump into the canister and would have the benefit of 'cooling' the pump, just need to ensure I put a relatively small drain hole on the bottom to keep the fluid flowing.

The 97/8 rails is a great setup for those looking to keep it looking stock. I believe Arun or others mentioned they pushed it to 1000 rwhp, not sure if that was through the stock fuel lines though.

I think this is one of those areas that are over thought for those under 1000 hp . Trying to keep it simple....
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Old 01-09-2018, 08:41 AM
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Jimbo - might be able to find this cheaper - think I got if for 99 - but this might be of interest. This would let you set your base pressure a little lower to maybe get a bit more out of your pump...

http://www.zip-corvette.com/97-04-c5...regulator.html

With the high pressure E85 450 - I'm thinking of raising the pressure a little bit (maybe base at 60 or 65) - in hopes of getting a little more room out of the 80# injectors.
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