turbo/boost controller questions
Thread Starter
3rd Gear
Joined: Oct 2004
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turbo/boost controller questions
I was wondering if any of the turbo "gurus" could help clear some things up for me.
With an electronic boost controller what range of power could be dialed in? For example say an engine/turbo combo. is capable of 700RWHP under max boost, how much could the boost be reduced? could enough be reduced to produce only 500RWHP? or would the range of control not be that great?
Also with an Electronic Boost controller can boost settings be brought in automatically at speed intervals (for example at 50MPH, 80MPH etc.) or is it only controllable by shift, or RPM.
Finally, since an engine (ECM) needs to be "tuned" after a forced induction install in order to run properly, how is the state of tune affected by constant boost adjustments via a boost controller?
TIA
With an electronic boost controller what range of power could be dialed in? For example say an engine/turbo combo. is capable of 700RWHP under max boost, how much could the boost be reduced? could enough be reduced to produce only 500RWHP? or would the range of control not be that great?
Also with an Electronic Boost controller can boost settings be brought in automatically at speed intervals (for example at 50MPH, 80MPH etc.) or is it only controllable by shift, or RPM.
Finally, since an engine (ECM) needs to be "tuned" after a forced induction install in order to run properly, how is the state of tune affected by constant boost adjustments via a boost controller?
TIA
Last edited by WillisMcGahee; Nov 8, 2004 at 07:12 PM.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 8,863
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From: PA
St. Jude Donor '08
http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=236113
car needs to be tuned for specific boost unless you buy new piggy back coming to market, hopefully that is.
car needs to be tuned for specific boost unless you buy new piggy back coming to market, hopefully that is.
Safety Car
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,948
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From: Aurora IL
St. Jude Donor '06
Nick is right. Untill they come up with tuning that changes with boost I will wait for a boost controller. I had one on my single set up for 7lbs and 5 lbs, as you can guess 5lbs was pig rich.........so I never used it 
Melting Slicks
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 3,116
Likes: 10
From: Macomb MI
Hehe..I luv this question
I run 700rwhp on pump gas at 13.5psi or so. I can turn it down to 550 ish If I have too and have a very safe tune.I needed to do this recently at a club track event so I didnt get kicked out.
The typical external wastgate controls allow you to get 1x the installed spring rate on average. So, if you have 9psi springs installed in the gate you get usually get 18psi on full gain. Obviously you can change the base spring up or down to suit your needs. Take this with caution as anyone can blow anything up these days. But, tune to the higher level properly you can do down safely.
As for the Speed controlled boost, Yes the Blitx and a couple of other offer that option.
Also, Personally their is no need for a piggy back controller for 99% of the users. Most tuners/user will allow the meter to peg and tune PE vs RPM.
If your smart, you can recal or replace the meter, this was recently done in a 700rwhp+ C5R NA car here. Or, if your sneaky you can work with a 3bar map sensor. But it takes some thinking and time.
Phil
I run 700rwhp on pump gas at 13.5psi or so. I can turn it down to 550 ish If I have too and have a very safe tune.I needed to do this recently at a club track event so I didnt get kicked out.
The typical external wastgate controls allow you to get 1x the installed spring rate on average. So, if you have 9psi springs installed in the gate you get usually get 18psi on full gain. Obviously you can change the base spring up or down to suit your needs. Take this with caution as anyone can blow anything up these days. But, tune to the higher level properly you can do down safely.
As for the Speed controlled boost, Yes the Blitx and a couple of other offer that option.
Also, Personally their is no need for a piggy back controller for 99% of the users. Most tuners/user will allow the meter to peg and tune PE vs RPM.
If your smart, you can recal or replace the meter, this was recently done in a 700rwhp+ C5R NA car here. Or, if your sneaky you can work with a 3bar map sensor. But it takes some thinking and time.
Phil
Melting Slicks
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 2,844
Likes: 144
From: Northern Ireland
A lot depends on the type of boost controller.
Some do offer speed or rpm vs boost pressure to allow you to map various boost pressures throught the rpm range, but most just offer various boost settings, and good stable boost control. Usually with 2 or 4 settings. Some have like an overboost feature, that wil allow a short burst of higher boost setting at the flick of a switch. A lot of the features of modern boost controllers are for show. As with everything, sometimes simple is best.
Minimum boost is dictated by wastegate spring pressure. You cannot have less boost than that.
If you have an aftermarket ecu, that uses MAP as its main load parameter ( ie MAP vs rpm ), then provided it has been mapped for all boost levels being used, then it will perform as it should at any boost setting.
Some do offer speed or rpm vs boost pressure to allow you to map various boost pressures throught the rpm range, but most just offer various boost settings, and good stable boost control. Usually with 2 or 4 settings. Some have like an overboost feature, that wil allow a short burst of higher boost setting at the flick of a switch. A lot of the features of modern boost controllers are for show. As with everything, sometimes simple is best.
Minimum boost is dictated by wastegate spring pressure. You cannot have less boost than that.
If you have an aftermarket ecu, that uses MAP as its main load parameter ( ie MAP vs rpm ), then provided it has been mapped for all boost levels being used, then it will perform as it should at any boost setting.
Team Owner
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 37,017
Likes: 68
From: This city NEVER sleeps! Frank's back yard!
Originally Posted by stevieturbo
Minimum boost is dictated by wastegate spring pressure. You cannot have less boost than that.
If you have an aftermarket ecu, that uses MAP as its main load parameter ( ie MAP vs rpm ), then provided it has been mapped for all boost levels being used, then it will perform as it should at any boost setting.
If you have an aftermarket ecu, that uses MAP as its main load parameter ( ie MAP vs rpm ), then provided it has been mapped for all boost levels being used, then it will perform as it should at any boost setting.
A good boost controller isn't usually used to control various boost levels, but instead to prevent wastegate creep, and difficulty acheiving max boost quickly. Typically as you build boost, the feedback control also starts to slowly open the wastegate and bleed some off - this makes it tough to get max boost quickly. With a boost controller, it goes between the sensor and the wastegate, so that the wastegate isn't opened until max boost is hit (so then the controller allows max boost to come up quickly). This is the main reason for a boost controller - as others have said, if you want to decrease you max boost, then simply adjust the parameter on the wastegate (by springs etc) and you'll make less boost. I know it can be used to make less boost in lower gears too, so you can floor it and supposedly not spin the tires, but again, as conditions vary, the amount of traction will vary directly - the best boost controller is your right foot!
Melting Slicks
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 2,931
Likes: 2
From: Tx
Originally Posted by RoadRebel
Hehe..I luv this question
I run 700rwhp on pump gas at 13.5psi or so. I can turn it down to 550 ish If I have too and have a very safe tune.I needed to do this recently at a club track event so I didnt get kicked out.
The typical external wastgate controls allow you to get 1x the installed spring rate on average. So, if you have 9psi springs installed in the gate you get usually get 18psi on full gain. Obviously you can change the base spring up or down to suit your needs. Take this with caution as anyone can blow anything up these days. But, tune to the higher level properly you can do down safely.
As for the Speed controlled boost, Yes the Blitx and a couple of other offer that option.
Also, Personally their is no need for a piggy back controller for 99% of the users. Most tuners/user will allow the meter to peg and tune PE vs RPM.
If your smart, you can recal or replace the meter, this was recently done in a 700rwhp+ C5R NA car here. Or, if your sneaky you can work with a 3bar map sensor. But it takes some thinking and time.
Phil
I run 700rwhp on pump gas at 13.5psi or so. I can turn it down to 550 ish If I have too and have a very safe tune.I needed to do this recently at a club track event so I didnt get kicked out.
The typical external wastgate controls allow you to get 1x the installed spring rate on average. So, if you have 9psi springs installed in the gate you get usually get 18psi on full gain. Obviously you can change the base spring up or down to suit your needs. Take this with caution as anyone can blow anything up these days. But, tune to the higher level properly you can do down safely.
As for the Speed controlled boost, Yes the Blitx and a couple of other offer that option.
Also, Personally their is no need for a piggy back controller for 99% of the users. Most tuners/user will allow the meter to peg and tune PE vs RPM.
If your smart, you can recal or replace the meter, this was recently done in a 700rwhp+ C5R NA car here. Or, if your sneaky you can work with a 3bar map sensor. But it takes some thinking and time.
Phil
Also, do you really think most tuners know how to tune a ls1 based FI setup properly? I get the feeling that most just dial it in on the dyno at WOT and call it a day (I think that only covers about 75% of the job at hand).
Also curious about the recalibrated MAF you mentioned. Are you talking about the resistor mod or a new maf with a flow sheet?
Melting Slicks
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 3,116
Likes: 10
From: Macomb MI
Originally Posted by QuickSilver2002
Phil, have you done a 3 bar map sensor on an ls1 pcm. I've thought about dumping the MAF and trying a 2 bar, but I decided to wait until I really need it. I think I know exactly what needs to be done, but I was afraid the loss of granularity would make the car run a little rough.
Also, do you really think most tuners know how to tune a ls1 based FI setup properly? I get the feeling that most just dial it in on the dyno at WOT and call it a day (I think that only covers about 75% of the job at hand).
Also curious about the recalibrated MAF you mentioned. Are you talking about the resistor mod or a new maf with a flow sheet?
Also, do you really think most tuners know how to tune a ls1 based FI setup properly? I get the feeling that most just dial it in on the dyno at WOT and call it a day (I think that only covers about 75% of the job at hand).
Also curious about the recalibrated MAF you mentioned. Are you talking about the resistor mod or a new maf with a flow sheet?
. The resistor mod does not really extend the range. Pro M unit can be calibrated anyway you wish. But the sheet is more for reference based on my experience. We used a custom Univer from them on Harlans car last year..built a box to do twin stock ones this year. both worked out just fine.Haha..Tuners, they definately appear to have struggle with turbos, I typically see them trying to apply an SC type of calibration to turbos..I really enjoy those calls. But your right, I see a lot of quick and dirty tunes. Hell most of them dont even take them for a test drive to check drivability.
Phil
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Le Mans Master
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 8,863
Likes: 86
From: PA
St. Jude Donor '08
Originally Posted by RoadRebel
Yes I have done the map..and it much much easier to do a pro M maf instead . The resistor mod does not really extend the range. Pro M unit can be calibrated anyway you wish. But the sheet is more for reference based on my experience. We used a custom Univer from them on Harlans car last year..built a box to do twin stock ones this year. both worked out just fine.
Haha..Tuners, they definately appear to have struggle with turbos, I typically see them trying to apply an SC type of calibration to turbos..I really enjoy those calls. But your right, I see a lot of quick and dirty tunes. Hell most of them dont even take them for a test drive to check drivability.
Phil
. The resistor mod does not really extend the range. Pro M unit can be calibrated anyway you wish. But the sheet is more for reference based on my experience. We used a custom Univer from them on Harlans car last year..built a box to do twin stock ones this year. both worked out just fine.Haha..Tuners, they definately appear to have struggle with turbos, I typically see them trying to apply an SC type of calibration to turbos..I really enjoy those calls. But your right, I see a lot of quick and dirty tunes. Hell most of them dont even take them for a test drive to check drivability.
Phil
Phil what are your thoughts on the new Big Stuff drive by wire with dual wide bands?
Melting Slicks
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 2,844
Likes: 144
From: Northern Ireland
No, I mean minimum boost pressure. I have used many of them ( all on internal wastegated turbos ) and spring pressure dictates minimum boost. You cannot get lower than that unless you had an actuator with a double sided daphram, which 99% of actuators dont have, and it would be very tricky to plumb it up to offer both options, if indeed it was possible at all...
I guess on an external wastegate setup, with a double diaphram wastegate, you could use it to either increase or decrease, depending on spring pressure, and how you have it plumbed together..
Boost controllers do increase ( ie speed up ) spool up time, by reducing wastegate creep as you say. But thay also offer very stable boost control. Some cars tend drop boost as rpm rises, or in some cases have boost spikes. A well setup boost controller will sort these problems out, as long as they arent directly related to a poorly sized turbo..
And you mention changing springs to alter your boost pressure. Again, part of the beauty of a EBC, is to allow you to have a range of boost pressure available without having to make any mechanical changes at all, all from the drivers seat.
I guess on an external wastegate setup, with a double diaphram wastegate, you could use it to either increase or decrease, depending on spring pressure, and how you have it plumbed together..
Boost controllers do increase ( ie speed up ) spool up time, by reducing wastegate creep as you say. But thay also offer very stable boost control. Some cars tend drop boost as rpm rises, or in some cases have boost spikes. A well setup boost controller will sort these problems out, as long as they arent directly related to a poorly sized turbo..
And you mention changing springs to alter your boost pressure. Again, part of the beauty of a EBC, is to allow you to have a range of boost pressure available without having to make any mechanical changes at all, all from the drivers seat.
Last edited by stevieturbo; Nov 9, 2004 at 07:26 PM.
Pro
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 570
Likes: 1
From: Las Colinas, Texas
I will give a simple, practical answer to Willis M's question. My spring/diaphram default wastgate setting with boost cont. OFF is about 9psi. I cannot go lower than 9psi default. Controller ON to chanel 1 gives 10.5psi. Chanel 2 gives 12psi. These two chanels are on used on 93 pump gas. Chanel 3 gives 13.5 psi and chanel 4 14.5-15 psi. Chanels 3 & 4 use race fuel only. I do not see any turbo lag in any of the settings. Blitz controller. Good Luck
