laurent_zo6

Why don't you use a car broker and let him/her deal with the dealership?

JALLEN4

Bill aka ET

Since being a member here, I have read much of what you have written and it would appear you have an encyclopedic knowledge of the C5. Knowledge that obviously comes from hands on experience and long periods of time being involved with the manufacturing and engineering side of the process. Your willingness to share that knowledge and your commentary is obviously to the benefit of many, as you so often point out.

When it comes to your commentary on the retail side of the industry...not so much. You do not learn either side by osmosis from being involved with the other side. This is contrary though to the thoughts of 99% of the factory wonks I have met. When I read some of your diatribes about retail, it is easy to discern the amateur nature of your comments.

shot410ga

The last few new cars I've purchased have been through the internet. I never saw the sales person/mgr face to face, until I picked up the vehicle. The deals were great and one was even delivered to my house. I had muli-offers and deals working from different venues until I got the best. It did take up to a month in some cases, but it worked out in my opinion. for a good deal.

Evil-Twin

Ive bought 27 New cars, and when I do, I get the royal treatment.. Dealerships , service mangers, Sales managers and owners. over my 55 years of driving and in that period I've learned the inside of the Business" My "amateur\ish" approach as you call it come from very specially given insider information from years of inner action with the retail side. Over the years I have developed close friendships with top insiders of this business. Every single car I bought was bought with privilege information. You see , in the" Business " insiders want to develop relations ships with design engineers and corporate insiders like myself. Not trying to " toot " here But my tongue in cheek post post signature, of DJ Simmons is right on the money. " I know a few things because I have seen a few things " like knowing the actual cost of manufacturing a Corvette, and others as I was involved in many designs over my career not just the Corvette. The Corvette was just the last of my designs before retiring. I only came over to the Corvette Design studio in 1993 for the C5 platform. I came from another GM design team.

IN any event I've been in and close to " the Business " as an insider all of my life. I know why some people are successful and why others are not.. I know what floor salesmen are up against and how the incentive programs works for them and against them.. Ive been very gifted in that I learn quickly, I am focused on getting to where I was to go, and how to research an close on a mission.. anyway.. this was about someone complaining about not being successful in " the business " and him blaming everyone but himself.. yet i have many friends " in the business " who have been very successful, doing what this guy has failed miserably. IM not trashing him, I don't know him... I believe what he is saying , IM just pointing out why he failed, and doing so by his own admissions. Yet he fails to see it as easily as I do. You cant blame others for your own mistakes. at some point you have to take ownership of your short comings.

BTW IM not a factory worker, yet I know a lot of them, and the Corvette factory worker is unique in that they share a passion for Corvette, that Ive never seen from any other factory worker and the car they build. Most factory auto workers consider them self an automotive line mechanic or an assembler.. At BG, and in flint and other previous Corvette manufacturing plants, Corvette brings out a passion. Germans have this passion, and Japan has dedication.. My life has been blessed, my career, ( both military and automotive ) and my family ( wife who likes me even after 50 years {actually 54 years] 2 great kids who are professionals both with great kids.. giving us 5 grand kids. and never an issue of grief with any of them. have been so perfect I worry sometimes about when this bubble is going to break.. When I was diagnosed with Cancer I though it was the end.. yet i've beaten my expiration date. I still come here to try and help people, that is until IM not here any more.

I know a few things because I have seen and lived a few things.



Stealerships ! Called that by so many who have come across people in a business that draws people of uncertain ethics and morals.. While the real Dealerships are managed by caring and empathetic people who understand how some dealerships survive and others
flourish. The " Business " is always in a feast or famine state of flux. Good dealerships know how to weather the storms. treat people right and not just the customers.. their own staff as well.

Evil-Twin

You have been here less than a year and you claim to know me? How could you possibly judge me? How could you know what I know given you know nothing of my inner action " In the business " one that has spanned 30 years.

JALLEN4

Your right, I don't "know" you. That would still be true whether I have been here a year or ten years. I do though respect your knowledge about the engineering and manufacturing of the vehicle. GM has thousands of engineers and one could argue the best in the industry at their level of volume.

I can though "Judge" you when it comes to your expressed knowledge of the retail side of the business. I read what you write and it reflects zero knowledge of the real dealership operation. You don't learn that process from making 27 employee purchases and getting your knowledge from an hour of conversation from "the insiders". That knowledge comes from having your money on the line and spending 16 hour days making it work. If it makes you feel any better though, 99% of the thousands of factory guys I sold over the years thought they understood retail and they also didn't have a clue.

Evil-Twin

again your understanding of my knowlege is flawed
.seems you judge without being smart enough to know how the inside works.. from my personsl and professional association with dealers all over the country.. because I bought a few cars, my knowlege of the business does ot come from that experience, but from 30 years of being smart enough to gleen everything I could from people in the business hat were willing to give me that knowlege. Know who buys cars, and what they are willing to spend. Through he dealer incentive program and corporate policies privy t only us who make a conceptions design for the target market and if the retail side can sell that car to their customers for the profit margin we expect them to deliver. The demographic is one of the first hing we look at... who will buy this car and who can afford it. And can the dealers sell it.
So again don't talk trash to someone who knows a few things. You see I could sell cars , but you could not design them. a car salesman is an entry level job. It's a job that does not require a degree or skill set other than interpersonal skills and a personality.
When ALL Else FAILS Almost ANYONE CAN GET A Job Selling cars.. THE learning curve is very minimal. And if that fails, you can always sell insurances. Or work at the post office.
Bill aka ET

Overthehill

Break out the waders, another flash flood of BS!

jackthelad

To quote Monty Python: Is this the 5 minute argument or the 10?

Sometimes I think certain people only post or respond to posts here to provoke an argument. As my grandmother used to say, if you can't say something nice, don't say anything.

Not sure why the OP posted this whole topic here rather than the Off Topic forum, but he sure got the haters started.

We bought a new car a couple of months ago - the only hassle was the inordinate amount of time we wasted while the dealership prepared all the paperwork. It's as bad as closing on a house these days! Apart from that, very professional and we were happy with the deal we asked for - and got.

I have only ever gone into a dealer knowing what I wanted and being able to pay for it, but I know that's because I am extremely lucky - I did a 5 year engineering training program with a major auto manufacturer, who sent me off to get my degrees on their nickel, and have had really good jobs from that day until I retired. Most are not that lucky, and really are concerned with the per month cost because they are running on a very tight budgets, so they have to be.

Talking to friends and family, it seems that is the used car side of the business that has the "iffiest" ethics - everything from almost inventing vehicle histories to bait and switch on pricing. Better than years ago, I suppose, when it was not unknown to throw VERY heavy oil into an engine, or even a handful of sawdust into a manual transmission or axle to quieten them down.

And as for house buying and selling - never had a problem either way. Most agents, like the rest of us, just want to make a living and they know full well that nothing spreads quicker than a bad rep as a realtor. I always used the most experienced agent in the area - usually easy to find out who has been around for a long time, and who has successfully sold a lot of houses in your area, as against someone doing it almost for pocket money.

leadfoot4

Pretty much the same for me. The only time I really had an issued, was when I bought my first new car. I ordered it, waited the 4-5 weeks for it to come in, and fortunately one of my high school buddies was working at the dealership, and gave me a "heads up".

Apparently there was some body damage on the car, and also a mechanical issue. The dealership was going to try and stall me, while they got the car sorted out. I refused the car, and they tried to force me to take it, and when I wouldn't, they said they wouldn't refund my deposit. Long story short, they did.

On the way home from that dealership, I stopped in to another dealer, as I needed a car, and they had something on the showroom floor that I liked. I had a hard time convincing them that I could afford it, as I was only 19 at the time, and looked all of 15................


The last vehicle I bought, a Jeep GC, I bought 2 years ago. After I retired, I had a part time job, for several years, driving a delivery truck for the local Advance Auto Parts store. I frequently delivered parts to the local Dodge/Jeep dealer, and the parts guys told me that if I ever was in the market for a new vehicle, to check with them, and they'd make sure that I got a "good deal". I did, in fact, get a good deal, but something that happened during the negotiation was kind of funny.

My one "bargaining chip" whenever I buy a new car, is either go in on a clean deal, which is best or if I am trading something in, go in with it clean and in reasonably good mechanical shape. That way, when they try to "lowball" you, I say to them, "Look at what I'm trading in....does it look like I NEED a new car"? When I bought the Jeep, the "closer" came out, and starts the usual "song and dance", followed up by "Have you been shopping this price around" (the one I hit them with)? With a dead pan, blank look, I said, "No....not yet". He looked at me, realized that I was prepared to leave, as well as not really needing a new vehicle, and said, "OK, I guess we can do this".......

oemtech

They are only STEALERSHIPS if YOU let them.You walked in you can walk out.

Paper work usually is a state requirement.

Trades... You take junk in you get junk trade price.
My cars were detailed and NO pesonal itens in the car.

The Rabbi

And your point is........... I have no interest in your cynicism, I just wanted to share my experience.

Friends-what? This is a forum. Am I supposed to make friends with people who are nasty? No one told me.

WILL SOMEONE FRIEND ME SO ET WILL BE HAPPY, PLEASE!!!

The Rabbi

By ET

Stealerships ! Called that by so many who have come across people in a business that draws people of uncertain ethics and morals.. While the real Dealerships are managed by caring and empathetic people who understand how some dealerships survive and others
flourish. The " Business " is always in a feast or famine state of flux. Good dealerships know how to weather the storms. treat people right and not just the customers.. their own staff as well.[/QUOTE]

Response: Finally, Bill, you come out with a well thought out commentary.

Thank you very much,
Joel

The Rabbi

Learn to read for comprehension. I said "buyers are liars" never said all. That goes for everyone because it's well known that the majority of people will tell lies. "I'll be back" famous last words. "Write it up for me and I'll take it to my credit union". Another joke

By the way, how could ET know anything about the marketing of cars when he worked in mfg.???

How many did I sell at $100? How would I know. I do remember some that sold for list. It all worked out well in the end.

Think about this: Without salespeople, there wouldn't be much of an economy. How insulting to say I spent my life ripping people off.

Evil-Twin

Part of my self proclaimed mission here is to evoke feelings, "why" ? so we can have meaningful thought provoking and open conversations.. it would not as much fun if we all took the same side.. and NO, your grandmother's advice is very misplaced in an internet forum.. "If you don't have nothing nice to say, Don't say anything"... that's great in the real world and hope people follow those guidelines. However, when someone asks for opinion or advice... be it a very bad purchase, very bad advice, or some other situation or issue, its does no one any good to sugar coat anything.. Honesty in a forum like this is important, after all those who choose not to say something bad or negative only hurt the seaker of advice.. only to see the positive side is not in their best interest.

If a guy is about to make a very bad purchase, and those who see it as a bad purchase and follow grandma's formula, will keep silent, only allowing those who speak positively ( usually the clueless or uninformed ) will give this person a green light because no one spoke up about the pitfalls of this bad purchase..

For me, stirring the pots to bring out conversation, and opposing points of view, helps to make this forum interesting. This forum would die if everyone had the same opinion.

For me, I never sugar coat anything, and if you ask for my opinion, you are going to get it. And you can count on it being from the heart and not sugar coated and you could take it to the bank. I look at issue that people present as if I was giving advice to one of my children, or other family member. I'm not there to allow them to enter into anything that could potentially hurt them..

When someone presents an issue that I disagree with, IM going to respond.

in my 16 years here, I've accumulated 18,000 plus posts and threads in open forum. However in Private message I have over 20,000 plus.. most are requests for help but start out with "I value your experience and your advice" and your honesty. or a " thank you". Many with controversial issue will not air them in open forum. I get lots of private massages for just this reason.

Can I be harsh and abrupt at times. Yes.. But my motivation is to offer tough love for an ill thought out issue. Tough love gets their attention. Never sugar coated . I will tell people if they want my opinion and can not handle the truth, don't ask me. Ive been very vocal about honesty and integrity , morals and ethics.. Some times people need to hear the truth without the sugar coating.. this forum is such a place. and without Grandma's sensitivity.

Bill aka ET

Crosis

Sorry but life doesn't work that way. You put out a post like that on a forum you cant demand no criticism.

Evil-Twin

This Junior member has 9 posts to his name. LOL

ttiros

I agree with your premise. When I bought my C5 three years ago I saw it advertised on Carguru . Com. It said great deal. Went in to the dealership
Left a deposit, had it checked out at a shop of my choice. They deducted what a new Tire sensor would cost. Total time with salesman thirty minutes at the most.

Evil-Twin

Car buyers who are not in the know and are not street smart can easily become victims. If they can not tell if they are being " Played" they can be a victim.. it takes people with a degree of skepticism and the " Path " of research to purchase a car at a fair price.

My brother graduated from Villanova University, second in his class. ( a smart guy )but has absolutely no street smarts. He's the nicest guy in the world and would give you the shirt off his back.. but he has Victim tattooed on his forehead and has been victimizes more than once..

64drvr

You are unbelievably hopeless. Your original post WEARING THE TITLE OF RABBI called all of us (buyers) "aholes", and you cry like a little girl because we point out the truth. You are rude, condescending, arrogant, and completely clueless. You claim to have started this thread to bless us with your teachings, yet you offered nothing in the form of education, just crying.