Oh Happy Day...Cold air experience
12-08-2018, 04:42 PM
#41
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St. Jude Donor '03-'04
do the throttle body bypass mod and you wont have your power robbed by the high temps. I am in cali and know exactly what you're talking about.
Before the mod @80-105° temps, i would not have much power, after the mod i have full power always. Sure, you can get to all the different factors but i will keep it simple.
Before the mod @80-105° temps, i would not have much power, after the mod i have full power always. Sure, you can get to all the different factors but i will keep it simple.
Bill
12-09-2018, 09:51 AM
#42
Didn't think a closed loop system would produce such notable differences. Back in the day I was leaving my friend's house in CT and it was hovering around zero. The carb'd Fury struggled a bit to start, but once warm it was fine. On the highway there was absolutely a notable boost in performance. I felt like I had 30 extra horses. Wish it stayed that way...
12-09-2018, 02:43 PM
#43
Safety Car
More urban legend.. at 600 cfm air flows through the throttle body as a delivered temperature which is ambient to the filter. because any heat transfer is passive any air entering the throttle bottle will be neither super heated or cooled, heat transfer takes time and area passively to make a difference. The throttle body heater is just to keep the mechanics of the throttle valve from sticking and kept at a constant temperature not to effect expansion and contraction. as ambient air flows through the throttle body at lets just say at 100F. that air in only in the throttle body for a millisecond. with the heater line blocked, the throttle body still gets heat passively because it is bolted to the Glass filled nylon intake. Tell me what force of nature could effect air travel through a throttle body that would effect more than 1 degree of temperature increase or decrease in the millisecond that it is in there ? It certainly will not effect its function in California by bypassing it. But it will not do anything to increase horse power or allow for more dense air since there is not enough time or area to effect any heat transfer drop. the throttle body is not a heat sink or designed to be a heat sink.
Bill
Bill
I wasnt talking about the air filter at all, i cut out from front bumber so engine temps for me sit 187 on stock rad and stock fan settings. That also includes in 90° heat.
tb bypass mod makes a difference, you notice it if you live in a warm/hot region. If you live where it snows, the tb mod is pointless for you.
12-09-2018, 03:02 PM
#44
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St. Jude Donor '03-'04
simple engine heat soak. For people in California and or florida, its is beneficial especially if Its not weekened or season driven car.
I wasnt talking about the air filter at all, i cut out from front bumber so engine temps for me sit 187 on stock rad and stock fan settings. That also includes in 90° heat.
tb bypass mod makes a difference, you notice it if you live in a warm/hot region. If you live where it snows, the tb mod is pointless for you.
I wasnt talking about the air filter at all, i cut out from front bumber so engine temps for me sit 187 on stock rad and stock fan settings. That also includes in 90° heat.
tb bypass mod makes a difference, you notice it if you live in a warm/hot region. If you live where it snows, the tb mod is pointless for you.
You can certainly say and believe what you want and have your own opinion but dont bring my name into it as if you are an authority on the design of this car, However I Am an authority on the design of this car.. AS I always say: " Be very careful who you take advice from in this forum."
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vetintheblood (12-10-2018)
12-10-2018, 12:04 PM
#46
Safety Car
With 7 proprietary designs in every C5 on the planets and my daily focus on FMEA ( Failure Modes effect analysis ) contributions from 1995 through launch in 1997 and then 3 years of engineering support for the C5 platform before retiring from GM's Corvette design studio. I have to tell you, you do not know anything about automotive technology or fluid dynamics, or heat transfer applications.
You can certainly say and believe what you want and have your own opinion but dont bring my name into it as if you are an authority on the design of this car, However I Am an authority on the design of this car.. AS I always say: " Be very careful who you take advice from in this forum."
You can certainly say and believe what you want and have your own opinion but dont bring my name into it as if you are an authority on the design of this car, However I Am an authority on the design of this car.. AS I always say: " Be very careful who you take advice from in this forum."
I always enjoy your responce you take it personal. But i still have no clue why you rant on random stuff that has nothing to do with this post, you always do that. Lol
12-10-2018, 01:19 PM
#47
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St. Jude Donor '03-'04
Absolutely impossible since the area of the throttle body only represents < 1/10 of the area and volume of air flowing through it.. that why it takes the area and volume of a radiator to effect the coolant temperature. . So to say it gave me " GREAT " results is laughable.
Just trying to teach ( with example )people here to be very careful of advice given by less than qualified people.
Your quote" But i still have no clue why you rant "
I will agree with you on the fact that you have no clue ( your words )
Because I invested 5 years of my career ( 30 years ) in the design and development and launch of this car and take design of this car personally. I came here to this forum by request by the two original owners of this forum. Both Troy and Adam wanted me to come here after retiring and help people with their Corvette. I thought it was a good idea to give back to the community that supported my career for 30 years. offer, good sound advice, some insider development stories that are not found in any book be a resource to those in need of help, and to have some fun in the process.
I have over 30,000 help post ( most in Private message ) from people who usually start their message with" " I highly value your advice, insight and experience " ( or something similar ). I try to dispel urban legend and those who think they are helping. I dont think anyone purposely tries to deceive anyone here, but I find many , like yourself, who offer less than accurate information. I am an absolute expert in many areas of the development of this car, but not in all areas. I help where I think I can and try to steer people away from bad advice. You can count on me to be honest and not sugar coat anything. Many like that approach but many do not.
Bill aka ET
12-10-2018, 04:20 PM
#48
Bill,
I understand about the straight gain from air density as temperature changes. Could it be that you are not taking into account different fuel/spark curves with the colder air and perhaps the overall gain is more than just the 3hp that you are calculating from the air temp change?
Just a thought.
I understand about the straight gain from air density as temperature changes. Could it be that you are not taking into account different fuel/spark curves with the colder air and perhaps the overall gain is more than just the 3hp that you are calculating from the air temp change?
Just a thought.
12-10-2018, 07:58 PM
#49
Melting Slicks
I’m no ET apologist, he can fend for himself, but his answer was a quite good and detailed explanation of what that “heat circuit” was for. It is very obvious to anyone who works with heat exchangers that a short, simple, smooth tube is not a very good heat exchanger for heat transfer to or from air.
I do sometimes find it annoying how he lists his resume in a post but it is something he is proud of and someone (new to the planet)
may not know his credentials.
and besides the forum can get pretty bland “like scrambled eggs” it needs a little hot sauce sometimes to keep it interesting.
imho
.
somehow I missed ET already addressed this post when I posted mine.....
Last edited by Forcedvert; 12-11-2018 at 12:26 AM.
12-10-2018, 09:32 PM
#50
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St. Jude Donor '03-'04
I’m no ET apologist, he can fend for himself, but’s his answer was a quite good and detailed explanation of what that “heat circuit” was for. It is very obvious to anyone who works with heat exchangers that a short, simple, smooth tube is not a very good heat exchanger for heat transfer to or from air.
I do sometimes find it annoying how he lists his resume in a post but it is something he is proud of and someone (new to the planet)
may not know his credentials.and besides the forum can get pretty bland “like scrambled eggs” it needs a little hot sauce sometimes to keep it interesting.
imho
.
Some times you have to put on your Doctors smock so new patients will believe you are a " professional * thus the resume
thanks
Bill aka Evil ( Hot Sauce ) Twin .
12-11-2018, 10:43 AM
#51
Safety Car
Your quote "Tb mod gave me great results ",
Absolutely impossible since the area of the throttle body only represents < 1/10 of the area and volume of air flowing through it.. that why it takes the area and volume of a radiator to effect the coolant temperature. . So to say it gave me " GREAT " results is laughable.
Just trying to teach ( with example )people here to be very careful of advice given by less than qualified people.
Your quote" But i still have no clue why you rant "
I will agree with you on the fact that you have no clue ( your words )
Because I invested 5 years of my career ( 30 years ) in the design and development and launch of this car and take design of this car personally. I came here to this forum by request by the two original owners of this forum. Both Troy and Adam wanted me to come here after retiring and help people with their Corvette. I thought it was a good idea to give back to the community that supported my career for 30 years. offer, good sound advice, some insider development stories that are not found in any book be a resource to those in need of help, and to have some fun in the process.
I have over 30,000 help post ( most in Private message ) from people who usually start their message with" " I highly value your advice, insight and experience " ( or something similar ). I try to dispel urban legend and those who think they are helping. I dont think anyone purposely tries to deceive anyone here, but I find many , like yourself, who offer less than accurate information. I am an absolute expert in many areas of the development of this car, but not in all areas. I help where I think I can and try to steer people away from bad advice. You can count on me to be honest and not sugar coat anything. Many like that approach but many do not.
Bill aka ET
Absolutely impossible since the area of the throttle body only represents < 1/10 of the area and volume of air flowing through it.. that why it takes the area and volume of a radiator to effect the coolant temperature. . So to say it gave me " GREAT " results is laughable.
Just trying to teach ( with example )people here to be very careful of advice given by less than qualified people.
Your quote" But i still have no clue why you rant "
I will agree with you on the fact that you have no clue ( your words )
Because I invested 5 years of my career ( 30 years ) in the design and development and launch of this car and take design of this car personally. I came here to this forum by request by the two original owners of this forum. Both Troy and Adam wanted me to come here after retiring and help people with their Corvette. I thought it was a good idea to give back to the community that supported my career for 30 years. offer, good sound advice, some insider development stories that are not found in any book be a resource to those in need of help, and to have some fun in the process.
I have over 30,000 help post ( most in Private message ) from people who usually start their message with" " I highly value your advice, insight and experience " ( or something similar ). I try to dispel urban legend and those who think they are helping. I dont think anyone purposely tries to deceive anyone here, but I find many , like yourself, who offer less than accurate information. I am an absolute expert in many areas of the development of this car, but not in all areas. I help where I think I can and try to steer people away from bad advice. You can count on me to be honest and not sugar coat anything. Many like that approach but many do not.
Bill aka ET
I can already hear you complain about the zip tie mod as being a waste of time. You're stuck with your Stock gm know how's, and choose not to alter or mod and see results.
Its a simple heat soak.
that coolant line going to the TB is pointless for me. I drive my car everyday in pouring rain and on hot days.
Gm designed this car to be a certain way, Yes i agree but that 20 years ago.
Times have changed and Results have been made
some people just want to start with small mods to their engine and not start with bolt ons such as heads and headers. Maybe they dont have the tools or skills to wrench but they come here to research.
You're the type to say no it has to be stock, the way GM intented it to be Just like those cheap *** sway bar end links.
You do need to understand the C5 is an old car and people like myself and others want to or have modded our engine's but not to GM specs.
There's GM way and There's a modded way. Both have results.
Again, its Simple heat soak
I always imagine you yelling in front of your computer each time you post. You're a great asset if i needed help restoring my c5 to stock specs.
I hate GM's stock specs.
12-11-2018, 11:40 AM
#52
Team Owner
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St. Jude Donor '03-'04
you remind me so much to be the jason blaha of corvette forum. The guy with all the answers and credentials.
I can already hear you complain about the zip tie mod as being a waste of time. You're stuck with your Stock gm know how's, and choose not to alter or mod and see results.
Its a simple heat soak.
that coolant line going to the TB is pointless for me. I drive my car everyday in pouring rain and on hot days.
Gm designed this car to be a certain way, Yes i agree but that 20 years ago.
Times have changed and Results have been made
some people just want to start with small mods to their engine and not start with bolt ons such as heads and headers. Maybe they dont have the tools or skills to wrench but they come here to research.
You're the type to say no it has to be stock, the way GM intented it to be Just like those cheap *** sway bar end links.
You do need to understand the C5 is an old car and people like myself and others want to or have modded our engine's but not to GM specs.
There's GM way and There's a modded way. Both have results.
Again, its Simple heat soak
I always imagine you yelling in front of your computer each time you post. You're a great asset if i needed help restoring my c5 to stock specs.
I hate GM's stock specs.
I can already hear you complain about the zip tie mod as being a waste of time. You're stuck with your Stock gm know how's, and choose not to alter or mod and see results.
Its a simple heat soak.
that coolant line going to the TB is pointless for me. I drive my car everyday in pouring rain and on hot days.
Gm designed this car to be a certain way, Yes i agree but that 20 years ago.
Times have changed and Results have been made
some people just want to start with small mods to their engine and not start with bolt ons such as heads and headers. Maybe they dont have the tools or skills to wrench but they come here to research.
You're the type to say no it has to be stock, the way GM intented it to be Just like those cheap *** sway bar end links.
You do need to understand the C5 is an old car and people like myself and others want to or have modded our engine's but not to GM specs.
There's GM way and There's a modded way. Both have results.
Again, its Simple heat soak
I always imagine you yelling in front of your computer each time you post. You're a great asset if i needed help restoring my c5 to stock specs.
I hate GM's stock specs.
You believe what you want to believe and I will agree with those who have PM'd me about your post in support of my almost 20 years here of helping members to understand their C5 and get more out of it. The GM design was constrained by time and budget as are all factory car designs. There are many things an owner can do.to impact in a positive way, their driving experience. BTW the throttle body mod is NOT one of them. I wont go back and forth on this.. Just an FYI, the most impactful mod a member can do is to have their stock factory tune, retuned for their geographical location. The C5 is delivered with a Safety factory tune ( rich in fuel trims ), because it is delivered to many areas of varying temp, barometric pressure and humidity. Your assumptions of me as an old non progressive engineer living in the past is pathetic. I hope you enjoy your C5 and its added " great gains " in power with your bypass mod.
I wish you the best
Bill aka ET
12-11-2018, 05:20 PM
#53
Safety Car
My car is far from stock. Ive never once condoned keeping it stock, and I have applauded those who have made changes that impact their experience. You perceive nothing about me because as you say, You are clueless. Your imagination of what I do in front of my computer is laughable.
You believe what you want to believe and I will agree with those who have PM'd me about your post in support of my almost 20 years here of helping members to understand their C5 and get more out of it. The GM design was constrained by time and budget as are all factory car designs. There are many things an owner can do.to impact in a positive way, their driving experience. BTW the throttle body mod is NOT one of them. I wont go back and forth on this.. Just an FYI, the most impactful mod a member can do is to have their stock factory tune, retuned for their geographical location. The C5 is delivered with a Safety factory tune ( rich in fuel trims ), because it is delivered to many areas of varying temp, barometric pressure and humidity. Your assumptions of me as an old non progressive engineer living in the past is pathetic. I hope you enjoy your C5 and its added " great gains " in power with your bypass mod.
I wish you the best
Bill aka ET
You believe what you want to believe and I will agree with those who have PM'd me about your post in support of my almost 20 years here of helping members to understand their C5 and get more out of it. The GM design was constrained by time and budget as are all factory car designs. There are many things an owner can do.to impact in a positive way, their driving experience. BTW the throttle body mod is NOT one of them. I wont go back and forth on this.. Just an FYI, the most impactful mod a member can do is to have their stock factory tune, retuned for their geographical location. The C5 is delivered with a Safety factory tune ( rich in fuel trims ), because it is delivered to many areas of varying temp, barometric pressure and humidity. Your assumptions of me as an old non progressive engineer living in the past is pathetic. I hope you enjoy your C5 and its added " great gains " in power with your bypass mod.
I wish you the best
Bill aka ET
Right bill?
Start streaming each post you make and reply to so we can see your reactions. Might make a great meme someday.
12-11-2018, 05:21 PM
#54
Safety Car
My car is far from stock. Ive never once condoned keeping it stock, and I have applauded those who have made changes that impact their experience. You perceive nothing about me because as you say, You are clueless. Your imagination of what I do in front of my computer is laughable.
You believe what you want to believe and I will agree with those who have PM'd me about your post in support of my almost 20 years here of helping members to understand their C5 and get more out of it. The GM design was constrained by time and budget as are all factory car designs. There are many things an owner can do.to impact in a positive way, their driving experience. BTW the throttle body mod is NOT one of them. I wont go back and forth on this.. Just an FYI, the most impactful mod a member can do is to have their stock factory tune, retuned for their geographical location. The C5 is delivered with a Safety factory tune ( rich in fuel trims ), because it is delivered to many areas of varying temp, barometric pressure and humidity. Your assumptions of me as an old non progressive engineer living in the past is pathetic. I hope you enjoy your C5 and its added " great gains " in power with your bypass mod.
I wish you the best
Bill aka ET
You believe what you want to believe and I will agree with those who have PM'd me about your post in support of my almost 20 years here of helping members to understand their C5 and get more out of it. The GM design was constrained by time and budget as are all factory car designs. There are many things an owner can do.to impact in a positive way, their driving experience. BTW the throttle body mod is NOT one of them. I wont go back and forth on this.. Just an FYI, the most impactful mod a member can do is to have their stock factory tune, retuned for their geographical location. The C5 is delivered with a Safety factory tune ( rich in fuel trims ), because it is delivered to many areas of varying temp, barometric pressure and humidity. Your assumptions of me as an old non progressive engineer living in the past is pathetic. I hope you enjoy your C5 and its added " great gains " in power with your bypass mod.
I wish you the best
Bill aka ET
12-11-2018, 07:58 PM
#56
Melting Slicks
Naa why? There is nothing that bad here. One member is making sense and one is trying to convince the other with vague answers and no facts whatsoever to back up a kinda far out claim. I’m not an engineer but an HVAC professional, ET’s explanation makes much more sense to me, I work with heat transfer to and from air. There is many factors in transferring heat but surface area is big. I could be wrong but heat soak is usually talked about with pd super chargers and intakes not the tb. There is much more contact with the air.
Last edited by Forcedvert; 12-11-2018 at 08:02 PM.
12-11-2018, 08:10 PM
#57
Safety Car
Naa why? There is nothing that bad here. One member is making sense and one is trying to convince the other with vague answers and no facts whatsoever to back up a kinda far out claim. I’m not an engineer but an HVAC professional, ET’s explanation makes much more sense to me, I work with heat transfer to and from air. There is many factors in transferring heat but surface area is big. I could be wrong but heat soak is usually talked about with pd super chargers and intakes not the tb. There is much more contact with the air.
Yes, simple Heat soak. No more coolant going to the tb meaning a cooler tb and intake.
I just await billy's responce
12-11-2018, 08:29 PM
#58
I don’t understand how a tiny coolant line is going to effect intake temps to the point of heat soaking.
The whole intake is sitting ON heated aluminum and last I checked, combustion is WAY hotter than coolant. It also has steam lines that run beneath with radiant heat.
It could effectively be argued that once the engine is at temp, the coolant line is likely COLDER than the engine beneath it, so the only time this effects anything is during startup and and open loop fuel trims anyhow. Probably EXACTLY as it was designed.
Furthermore, unless you have a magically relocated IAT, your fuel trims are going to be based on FAR before the throttle body...and obviously coolant temp itself; and the actual combustion temps ie 02 sensors in closed loop.
This ‘mod’ is comical at best. The gains effect very, very little if even measurable on a vehicle used on a vehicle used longer than a 1/4 mile blast. Even still, it’s negligible to the first 330’ I’m sure.
Its literally ‘isolated’ to the throttle body, that air spends a millisecond inside. Its for the damn blade to function lol.
The whole intake is sitting ON heated aluminum and last I checked, combustion is WAY hotter than coolant. It also has steam lines that run beneath with radiant heat.
It could effectively be argued that once the engine is at temp, the coolant line is likely COLDER than the engine beneath it, so the only time this effects anything is during startup and and open loop fuel trims anyhow. Probably EXACTLY as it was designed.
Furthermore, unless you have a magically relocated IAT, your fuel trims are going to be based on FAR before the throttle body...and obviously coolant temp itself; and the actual combustion temps ie 02 sensors in closed loop.
This ‘mod’ is comical at best. The gains effect very, very little if even measurable on a vehicle used on a vehicle used longer than a 1/4 mile blast. Even still, it’s negligible to the first 330’ I’m sure.
Its literally ‘isolated’ to the throttle body, that air spends a millisecond inside. Its for the damn blade to function lol.
Last edited by RSbeast; 12-11-2018 at 09:08 PM.
12-11-2018, 08:35 PM
#59
Team Owner
Member Since: Mar 2001
Location: small town in S.E Pa. PA
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St. Jude Donor '03-'04
Hopefully, I can clear up this discussion. I gave my reasons why his contention that it is a" great increase in performance )is pure Ca Ca. The reason? because he wants to win the discussion with the fact that in California, or Florida, as he stated, does not need to have a temperature regulator ( Throttle body heater ) in areas that do not see extreme cold weather. He keeps saying simple heat soak... All that means is in California there is little threat of freezing or enough cold to cause a sticking throttle body. This is true to some extent.
Where he went off the rails was in saying that it give a great increase in power. This is where his lack of automotive technology offers no sound physical or scientific facts that by lowering the throttle body temp from 190 F to say 160 which would be the heat soak of a passive component attached to the glass filled nylon intake. . heat exchange is produced by temperature, area, and time.. A 160F temperature with a <1/10 area of air volume will not cause any difference in the intake temperature of air traveling through the TB @ 600cfm. now if you had 600 cubic feet of area ( a throttle body that was 600cf in size that would be a different story. the size of a throttle body that size would have to be 10 ft. X 10 ft x 6 foot in contact area to the air flowing through it
.. The point to all of this is there is no gain in performance and if there is any remote chance of a freeze up, removing the throttle body heater could kill you. it was put there to make sure the throttle body did not stick in the open position as was found early in development through one of the FMEA test. .Failure Modes effect analysis.
Some people are trying to teach HERE, and other should be trying to learn.
OK IM done with this thread, and to shut down a tread because there is a difference between facts and urban legend is not in the best interest of the corvette community.
Bill aka ET
Be very careful who you listen to in this forum.
Where he went off the rails was in saying that it give a great increase in power. This is where his lack of automotive technology offers no sound physical or scientific facts that by lowering the throttle body temp from 190 F to say 160 which would be the heat soak of a passive component attached to the glass filled nylon intake. . heat exchange is produced by temperature, area, and time.. A 160F temperature with a <1/10 area of air volume will not cause any difference in the intake temperature of air traveling through the TB @ 600cfm. now if you had 600 cubic feet of area ( a throttle body that was 600cf in size that would be a different story. the size of a throttle body that size would have to be 10 ft. X 10 ft x 6 foot in contact area to the air flowing through it
.. The point to all of this is there is no gain in performance and if there is any remote chance of a freeze up, removing the throttle body heater could kill you. it was put there to make sure the throttle body did not stick in the open position as was found early in development through one of the FMEA test. .Failure Modes effect analysis.
Some people are trying to teach HERE, and other should be trying to learn.
OK IM done with this thread, and to shut down a tread because there is a difference between facts and urban legend is not in the best interest of the corvette community.
Bill aka ET
Be very careful who you listen to in this forum.
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bruceg2016 (12-11-2018)
12-11-2018, 09:07 PM
#60
Safety Car
I don’t understand how a tiny coolant line is going to effect intake temps to the point of heat soaking.
The whole intake is sitting ON heated aluminum and last I checked, combustion is WAY hotter than coolant. It also has steam lines that run beneath with radiant heat.
It could effectively be argued that once the engine is at temp, the coolant line is likely COLDER than the engine beneath it, so the only time this effects anything is during startup and and open loop fuel trims anyhow. Probably EXACTLY as it was designed.
Furthermore, unless you have a magically relocated IAT, your fuel trims are going to be based on FAR before the throttle body...and obviously coolant temp itself; and the actual combustion temps ie 02 sensors in closed loop.
This ‘mod’ is comical at best. The gains effect very, very little if even measurable on a vehicle used on a vehicle used longer than a 1/4 mile blast. Even still, it’s negligible to the first 330’ I’m sure.
The whole intake is sitting ON heated aluminum and last I checked, combustion is WAY hotter than coolant. It also has steam lines that run beneath with radiant heat.
It could effectively be argued that once the engine is at temp, the coolant line is likely COLDER than the engine beneath it, so the only time this effects anything is during startup and and open loop fuel trims anyhow. Probably EXACTLY as it was designed.
Furthermore, unless you have a magically relocated IAT, your fuel trims are going to be based on FAR before the throttle body...and obviously coolant temp itself; and the actual combustion temps ie 02 sensors in closed loop.
This ‘mod’ is comical at best. The gains effect very, very little if even measurable on a vehicle used on a vehicle used longer than a 1/4 mile blast. Even still, it’s negligible to the first 330’ I’m sure.
Its really that simple. I am saying the mod has pro's and not talking about any hp or tq numbers as i never mentioned it.
Even some of the aftermarket tb makers dont have that coolant line.
As i said before, the mod may not be for you depending where you live. If it snows in your area then you need the line, why? To prevent the tb blade from sticking and keeping your engine to operating temp.
So reverse all that.