Ram Air - Myth or Truth?
07-05-2005, 12:39 PM
#41
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Originally Posted by carnut108
When all is said and done, it comes down to " did the Vararam help" Yes, it did. 
07-05-2005, 12:45 PM
#42
Originally Posted by Korreck
I disagree. He gave you some good info. And apparently you've read it all. You know what we speak is the truth. 
If you want a good laugh, go back and read the first post in this thread.
With him "speaking to us", sometimes "emphatically" using bold print on occasion, as though to make sure that we don't "misunderstand" him.
Then he gets to the end and "cautions" us, breaks it down for us:
"Language often plays tricks on us — especially when language is used by product advertisers. "Ram air" sounds much more appealing than "resonant airbox." Nevertheless, it is airbox resonance that actually generates a significant power gain."
The complete quote is:
" Language often plays tricks on us — especially when language is used by product advertisers. "Ram air" sounds much more appealing than "resonant airbox." Nevertheless, it is airbox resonance that actually generates a significant power gain. At snowmobile speeds, ram air is just words."
Then under the hail of applause, and "nice writeup", etc. he "takes a bow." Then does an "encore" by copying significant parts of yet another article
Last edited by '06 Quicksilver Z06; 07-05-2005 at 12:48 PM.
07-05-2005, 12:48 PM
#43
Step 1: I think you will see an improvement in power with any aftermarket system, be it the Vararam, Blackwing, or whatever. It's not hard to improve upon the factory's quarter sized air hole. Lower the air intake restiction and you will see an increase in power.
Step 2. COLD air is the answer. Pick an air system that grabs the coldest air. Does the Vararam pick up colder air than the Blackwing? Probably.
Step 2. COLD air is the answer. Pick an air system that grabs the coldest air. Does the Vararam pick up colder air than the Blackwing? Probably.
07-05-2005, 12:55 PM
#44
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Well this went down hill quick...
...again if someone wants to let me borrow a BlackWing (I am trying to buy a used one now with no success) I will post some hard comparative data.
Like:
IAT vs. speed difference
LTFT effects
WOT (PE) AFR effects
This subject is dear to my tuning heart and a problem I have been fighting for a while... I have a funny feeling that there will be little HP difference (after tuning to the same parameters) and the BlackWing would offer (as I have said before) a more linear MAF scale, easier to tune and maybe a more smooth throttle transition...
...again if someone wants to let me borrow a BlackWing (I am trying to buy a used one now with no success) I will post some hard comparative data.
Like:
IAT vs. speed difference
LTFT effects
WOT (PE) AFR effects
This subject is dear to my tuning heart and a problem I have been fighting for a while... I have a funny feeling that there will be little HP difference (after tuning to the same parameters) and the BlackWing would offer (as I have said before) a more linear MAF scale, easier to tune and maybe a more smooth throttle transition...
Last edited by SideStep; 07-05-2005 at 01:02 PM.
07-05-2005, 12:57 PM
#45
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Originally Posted by 123Gone
Step 1: I think you will see an improvement in power with any aftermarket system, be it the Vararam, Blackwing, or whatever. It's not hard to improve upon the factory's quarter sized air hole. Lower the air intake restiction and you will see an increase in power.
Step 2. COLD air is the answer. Pick an air system that grabs the coldest air. Does the Vararam pick up colder air than the Blackwing? Probably.
Step 2. COLD air is the answer. Pick an air system that grabs the coldest air. Does the Vararam pick up colder air than the Blackwing? Probably.
I cut a window in my shroud and my Blackwing also gets ambient air.
07-05-2005, 01:07 PM
#46
Originally Posted by Korreck
I hate the term cold air. No such thing but I do agree in principal to what you're saying. Ambient air temp will supply more oxygen than hot underhood air.
I cut a window in my shroud and my Blackwing also gets ambient air.
I cut a window in my shroud and my Blackwing also gets ambient air.
Cold is a relative term in these context. Cold air is ambient air and vice versa if that air is "colder" than under hood temps. There you go with absolute statements again.
Ram air forever!!!!!!
07-05-2005, 01:13 PM
#47
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Originally Posted by 2000BSME
Let me interject, as I haven't yet...
Cold is a relative term in these context. Cold air is ambient air and vice versa if that air is "colder" than under hood temps. There you go with absolute statements again.
Ram air forever!!!!!!
Cold is a relative term in these context. Cold air is ambient air and vice versa if that air is "colder" than under hood temps. There you go with absolute statements again.
Ram air forever!!!!!!
07-05-2005, 01:54 PM
#49
Originally Posted by SideStep
Well this went down hill quick...
...again if someone wants to let me borrow a BlackWing (I am trying to buy a used one now with no success) I will post some hard comparative data.
Like:
IAT vs. speed difference
LTFT effects
WOT (PE) AFR effects
This subject is dear to my tuning heart and a problem I have been fighting for a while... I have a funny feeling that there will be little HP difference (after tuning to the same parameters) and the BlackWing would offer (as I have said before) a more linear MAF scale, easier to tune and maybe a more smooth throttle transition...
...again if someone wants to let me borrow a BlackWing (I am trying to buy a used one now with no success) I will post some hard comparative data.
Like:
IAT vs. speed difference
LTFT effects
WOT (PE) AFR effects
This subject is dear to my tuning heart and a problem I have been fighting for a while... I have a funny feeling that there will be little HP difference (after tuning to the same parameters) and the BlackWing would offer (as I have said before) a more linear MAF scale, easier to tune and maybe a more smooth throttle transition...
I just got an LC1 and plan to log as much data as I can over the next few weeks.
07-05-2005, 02:00 PM
#50
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Originally Posted by EB20003
What kinds of numbers are you seeing with that WIde Band Commander at WOT?
I just got an LC1 and plan to log as much data as I can over the next few weeks.
I just got an LC1 and plan to log as much data as I can over the next few weeks.
With an untouched tune after Vararam install (and 50ish miles of driving) my WOT (PE) AFRs went .6 to .8 point more lean... .8 being in the higher rpms.
07-05-2005, 02:15 PM
#52
Le Mans Master
Originally Posted by SideStep
Well this went down hill quick...
...again if someone wants to let me borrow a BlackWing (I am trying to buy a used one now with no success) I will post some hard comparative data.
Like:
IAT vs. speed difference
LTFT effects
WOT (PE) AFR effects
This subject is dear to my tuning heart and a problem I have been fighting for a while... I have a funny feeling that there will be little HP difference (after tuning to the same parameters) and the BlackWing would offer (as I have said before) a more linear MAF scale, easier to tune and maybe a more smooth throttle transition...
...again if someone wants to let me borrow a BlackWing (I am trying to buy a used one now with no success) I will post some hard comparative data.
Like:
IAT vs. speed difference
LTFT effects
WOT (PE) AFR effects
This subject is dear to my tuning heart and a problem I have been fighting for a while... I have a funny feeling that there will be little HP difference (after tuning to the same parameters) and the BlackWing would offer (as I have said before) a more linear MAF scale, easier to tune and maybe a more smooth throttle transition...
SideStep this would be interesting and I would like to see the results. But for me there really is only one test that matters and that is trap speed and qtr mile ET's. The two comparisons that come to mind for me is EB's comparison with the blackwing which showed significant gains using the vararam, and Tracy's comparison between the bottom feeder CAI and the vararam. But like I said your test would be very interesting and could help people tune there vehicles better I would think.
300 you are a little off track I think. It is good to research things but the people that are telling you their results with the vararam have actually used the product they are not in any way going by their advertised claims. The reason some of us get aggressive when someone posts these scientific type arguments is we know from personal and practical experience that they are in error. I have read several articles on air box resonance but like I said before the vararam was designed to utilize cold air, high flow filter, and ram air. I don't think they hit upon a majical air box resonance frequency by accident. And if they tuned it this way on purpose they would advertise it.
So here is the thing, I tell people about the vararam because I have used them on two C5's, which I drag raced two-three times per week for close to 3 years. I know what it is capable of. I have seen posts of people who have put on the Summit LS1-LS6 conversion package and not received the gains people have gotten with the vararam. So anyway if you have not tried it you probably should I can assure you that you will probably delete your post. The reason I say this is after you use one and gain 3-4 tenths over the OEM box and 1-2 tenths over any other CAI on the market you will feel a little silly using a math equation to prove there is no ram air.
07-05-2005, 02:24 PM
#53
Le Mans Master
Originally Posted by blubyu
So, are we saying then that the old rule of thumb that "for every 10* of cooler air you can feed your engine, you will make ~1% more HP" is BS?
07-05-2005, 02:32 PM
#54
Originally Posted by Korreck
I'm not going to say what I'm thinking.
You should know from your vast engineering knowledge that in the most strict sense there is no such thing as cold at all. There is only the lack of heat. Molecules are slowed, therefore removing heat from a system. Anything above absolute zero kelvin is heat added to an unanimated system. Theory has it that at zero kelvin individual molecules, atoms-all matter, exists as a big "blob" of uniform indistiguishable uniformity. Actually experiments have proven this to be true in our limited knowledge of the universe.
I hope you don't mind that I put that in lay-mans terms for you. I don't exactly have my scientific papers in front of me right now.
You're the greatest Bob!
07-05-2005, 02:45 PM
#56
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Originally Posted by 2000BSME
Oh goodie goodie!! Thanks. I'll take that as an invitation to continue with no retort expected this time!!
You should know from your vast engineering knowledge that in the most strict sense there is no such thing as cold at all. There is only the lack of heat. Molecules are slowed, therefore removing heat from a system. Anything above absolute zero kelvin is heat added to an unanimated system. Theory has it that at zero kelvin individual molecules, atoms-all matter, exists as a big "blob" of uniform indistiguishable uniformity. Actually experiments have proven this to be true in our limited knowledge of the universe.
I hope you don't mind that I put that in lay-mans terms for you. I don't exactly have my scientific papers in front of me right now.
You're the greatest Bob!
You should know from your vast engineering knowledge that in the most strict sense there is no such thing as cold at all. There is only the lack of heat. Molecules are slowed, therefore removing heat from a system. Anything above absolute zero kelvin is heat added to an unanimated system. Theory has it that at zero kelvin individual molecules, atoms-all matter, exists as a big "blob" of uniform indistiguishable uniformity. Actually experiments have proven this to be true in our limited knowledge of the universe.
I hope you don't mind that I put that in lay-mans terms for you. I don't exactly have my scientific papers in front of me right now.
You're the greatest Bob!
We or I should say you should start a thread on astronomy. That would go oin forever.
07-05-2005, 02:45 PM
#57
Team Owner
Yep, ram air is a myth.. one can obtain access to cold air but not under pressure. This has been discussed on this forum since 2/99. Thats why I went FI... lots of Ram air there... as my S/C setup rams air under 10 lbs of boost right into my engine any time I want it too.
VR
as my S/C setup rams air under 10 lbs of boost right into my engine any time I want it too. VR
07-05-2005, 02:47 PM
#58
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Originally Posted by shurite44
Yep went down hill even quicker than the last 10 CAI posts.
SideStep this would be interesting and I would like to see the results. But for me there really is only one test that matters and that is trap speed and qtr mile ET's. The two comparisons that come to mind for me is EB's comparison with the blackwing which showed significant gains using the vararam, and Tracy's comparison between the bottom feeder CAI and the vararam. But like I said your test would be very interesting and could help people tune there vehicles better I would think.
300 you are a little off track I think. It is good to research things but the people that are telling you their results with the vararam have actually used the product they are not in any way going by their advertised claims. The reason some of us get aggressive when someone posts these scientific type arguments is we know from personal and practical experience that they are in error. I have read several articles on air box resonance but like I said before the vararam was designed to utilize cold air, high flow filter, and ram air. I don't think they hit upon a majical air box resonance frequency by accident. And if they tuned it this way on purpose they would advertise it.
So here is the thing, I tell people about the vararam because I have used them on two C5's, which I drag raced two-three times per week for close to 3 years. I know what it is capable of. I have seen posts of people who have put on the Summit LS1-LS6 conversion package and not received the gains people have gotten with the vararam. So anyway if you have not tried it you probably should I can assure you that you will probably delete your post. The reason I say this is after you use one and gain 3-4 tenths over the OEM box and 1-2 tenths over any other CAI on the market you will feel a little silly using a math equation to prove there is no ram air.
SideStep this would be interesting and I would like to see the results. But for me there really is only one test that matters and that is trap speed and qtr mile ET's. The two comparisons that come to mind for me is EB's comparison with the blackwing which showed significant gains using the vararam, and Tracy's comparison between the bottom feeder CAI and the vararam. But like I said your test would be very interesting and could help people tune there vehicles better I would think.
300 you are a little off track I think. It is good to research things but the people that are telling you their results with the vararam have actually used the product they are not in any way going by their advertised claims. The reason some of us get aggressive when someone posts these scientific type arguments is we know from personal and practical experience that they are in error. I have read several articles on air box resonance but like I said before the vararam was designed to utilize cold air, high flow filter, and ram air. I don't think they hit upon a majical air box resonance frequency by accident. And if they tuned it this way on purpose they would advertise it.
So here is the thing, I tell people about the vararam because I have used them on two C5's, which I drag raced two-three times per week for close to 3 years. I know what it is capable of. I have seen posts of people who have put on the Summit LS1-LS6 conversion package and not received the gains people have gotten with the vararam. So anyway if you have not tried it you probably should I can assure you that you will probably delete your post. The reason I say this is after you use one and gain 3-4 tenths over the OEM box and 1-2 tenths over any other CAI on the market you will feel a little silly using a math equation to prove there is no ram air.
Tell me how you can ram air into an engine. Let me see this in print. And by the way I didn't get a PM so I'll check email.
07-05-2005, 02:59 PM
#59
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Originally Posted by vetterdstr
Yep, ram air is a myth.. one can obtain access to cold air but not under pressure. This has been discussed on this forum since 2/99. Thats why I went FI... lots of Ram air there... as my S/C setup rams air under 10 lbs of boost right into my engine any time I want it too.
VR
as my S/C setup rams air under 10 lbs of boost right into my engine any time I want it too. VR
07-05-2005, 03:09 PM
#60
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Originally Posted by shurite44
Yep went down hill even quicker than the last 10 CAI posts.
SideStep this would be interesting and I would like to see the results. But for me there really is only one test that matters and that is trap speed and qtr mile ET's. The two comparisons that come to mind for me is EB's comparison with the blackwing which showed significant gains using the vararam, and Tracy's comparison between the bottom feeder CAI and the vararam. But like I said your test would be very interesting and could help people tune there vehicles better I would think.
300 you are a little off track I think. It is good to research things but the people that are telling you their results with the vararam have actually used the product they are not in any way going by their advertised claims. The reason some of us get aggressive when someone posts these scientific type arguments is we know from personal and practical experience that they are in error. I have read several articles on air box resonance but like I said before the vararam was designed to utilize cold air, high flow filter, and ram air. I don't think they hit upon a majical air box resonance frequency by accident. And if they tuned it this way on purpose they would advertise it.
So here is the thing, I tell people about the vararam because I have used them on two C5's, which I drag raced two-three times per week for close to 3 years. I know what it is capable of. I have seen posts of people who have put on the Summit LS1-LS6 conversion package and not received the gains people have gotten with the vararam. So anyway if you have not tried it you probably should I can assure you that you will probably delete your post. The reason I say this is after you use one and gain 3-4 tenths over the OEM box and 1-2 tenths over any other CAI on the market you will feel a little silly using a math equation to prove there is no ram air.
SideStep this would be interesting and I would like to see the results. But for me there really is only one test that matters and that is trap speed and qtr mile ET's. The two comparisons that come to mind for me is EB's comparison with the blackwing which showed significant gains using the vararam, and Tracy's comparison between the bottom feeder CAI and the vararam. But like I said your test would be very interesting and could help people tune there vehicles better I would think.
300 you are a little off track I think. It is good to research things but the people that are telling you their results with the vararam have actually used the product they are not in any way going by their advertised claims. The reason some of us get aggressive when someone posts these scientific type arguments is we know from personal and practical experience that they are in error. I have read several articles on air box resonance but like I said before the vararam was designed to utilize cold air, high flow filter, and ram air. I don't think they hit upon a majical air box resonance frequency by accident. And if they tuned it this way on purpose they would advertise it.
So here is the thing, I tell people about the vararam because I have used them on two C5's, which I drag raced two-three times per week for close to 3 years. I know what it is capable of. I have seen posts of people who have put on the Summit LS1-LS6 conversion package and not received the gains people have gotten with the vararam. So anyway if you have not tried it you probably should I can assure you that you will probably delete your post. The reason I say this is after you use one and gain 3-4 tenths over the OEM box and 1-2 tenths over any other CAI on the market you will feel a little silly using a math equation to prove there is no ram air.