How sounds a starter solenoid with weak or non action?
07-21-2008, 10:14 PM
#1
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How sounds a starter solenoid with weak or non action?
Many thanks to Bill Curran and BlackZ06 for educating me on a several month intermittent no-start no-code condition with my 25K 2002 Torch Red Plastic Car. (Calling your vette a plastic car is a really fun form of mock-humility, people are really surprised when they finally see it.)
I've been caught in the mud with a dealership mechanic who couldn't do anything MajorGuard wouldn't pay, which requires a definitive pre-work diagnosis we can't get, but now it's all my own dime so I'm trying to fast-forward a solution.
The car is often parked in a very hostile environment, poorly ventilated underground garage with 113 temp and high humidity. When I take it to this office garage I always go out and back for lunch and it has a disproportionate number of failures on it's 4th start of the day after 8-10 hours in car hell. But sometimes it won't start Saturday mornings parked out doors at 80 degrees temp. Yet this amounts to a no-start maybe once every 30 times. It persists, it persists, then it just starts.
I've already replaced the ignition switch. Bill was kind enough to call and we went into details. I mentioned that on a few occasions I've held down the key, heard a "whirrrrrr" sound for a second or two (not a "click"), and it's started. Bill was certain that the relay under the dash just goes click. I've learned about how the theft relay works and am planning to wire an LED across it to see if the high-amp power is being offered the starter next time it no-starts. To acquit the whole pass-key/BCM circuit, or not.
But a new thought tonight -- starter solenoids usually have a low amp circuit connected to the ignition (BCM in this case?) telling it run in the drive pinion before the motor starts. Could my "whirrrrr" be indicating an undervolt on that circuit? Is pinion running in s-l-o-w-l-y. Or does the vette do it all with a single circuit?
Could the "whirrr" mean a problem with continuity on the low voltage circuit, or must it be an internal mechanical problem with the solenoid (could this be possibly heat related?), or maybe it's an intermittant fault in the BCM? Please don't say "all of the above." The BCM offers a "memory error" code but this has never been set. Maybe (maybe!) we just clean & dielectric grease the contacts on the BCM to solenoid circuit and the problem goes away?
I have never gotten the "click click click" most DIY guys associate with a dead battery / bad solenoid situation. This is why before posting on the board I never suspected the solenoid or starter wiring. Do C5 solenoid's "click click click" or has technology removed that little hint?
Basically I havn't the shop to do the starter myself and would hate to pay for it only to discover the problem was a dying BCM or a (deleted) intermittent (sometimes partial) continuity problem between the BCM and the solenoid.
Thanks for your advice,
Eric
I've been caught in the mud with a dealership mechanic who couldn't do anything MajorGuard wouldn't pay, which requires a definitive pre-work diagnosis we can't get, but now it's all my own dime so I'm trying to fast-forward a solution.
The car is often parked in a very hostile environment, poorly ventilated underground garage with 113 temp and high humidity. When I take it to this office garage I always go out and back for lunch and it has a disproportionate number of failures on it's 4th start of the day after 8-10 hours in car hell. But sometimes it won't start Saturday mornings parked out doors at 80 degrees temp. Yet this amounts to a no-start maybe once every 30 times. It persists, it persists, then it just starts.
I've already replaced the ignition switch. Bill was kind enough to call and we went into details. I mentioned that on a few occasions I've held down the key, heard a "whirrrrrr" sound for a second or two (not a "click"), and it's started. Bill was certain that the relay under the dash just goes click. I've learned about how the theft relay works and am planning to wire an LED across it to see if the high-amp power is being offered the starter next time it no-starts. To acquit the whole pass-key/BCM circuit, or not.
But a new thought tonight -- starter solenoids usually have a low amp circuit connected to the ignition (BCM in this case?) telling it run in the drive pinion before the motor starts. Could my "whirrrrr" be indicating an undervolt on that circuit? Is pinion running in s-l-o-w-l-y. Or does the vette do it all with a single circuit?
Could the "whirrr" mean a problem with continuity on the low voltage circuit, or must it be an internal mechanical problem with the solenoid (could this be possibly heat related?), or maybe it's an intermittant fault in the BCM? Please don't say "all of the above." The BCM offers a "memory error" code but this has never been set. Maybe (maybe!) we just clean & dielectric grease the contacts on the BCM to solenoid circuit and the problem goes away?
I have never gotten the "click click click" most DIY guys associate with a dead battery / bad solenoid situation. This is why before posting on the board I never suspected the solenoid or starter wiring. Do C5 solenoid's "click click click" or has technology removed that little hint?
Basically I havn't the shop to do the starter myself and would hate to pay for it only to discover the problem was a dying BCM or a (deleted) intermittent (sometimes partial) continuity problem between the BCM and the solenoid.
Thanks for your advice,
Eric
07-22-2008, 12:21 AM
#2
Pro
No start
Hi, to answer your question about the click, a battery can be discharged enough to not activate a solenoid and not even click. I know , because it has happened to me. And a bad solenoid will not click even with a good battery if the circuit has an open. In your past post you said the car was fine for 18 months, and then you replaced the battery. You may have a new problem now. The advice I would give is to
1, make very sure that the pos and neg cables are clean and tight to the battery, the starter, ground, and the fuse block.
2, Even though the battery is fairly new, have it load tested, they can fail even if new. you can't assume anything.
3, If you get into a no start situation, you can jump the solenoid, very carefully, if it starts your question is answered.
4, You can test the Neutral safety switch or the equivalent if a manual shift. I've seen these act like you describe. If it is that, when you get into a no start situation you can rock the shifter back and forth slowly between park and neutral, sometmes that will jog a bad switch to start.
These starting systems need a predetermined amount of current, if they don't get it, they will do nothing.
Hope some of this helps-- Good Luck
EDIT, When you hear a whrrrr as you engage the start circuit, it usually means a bad bendix drive,(as they used to call it), The solenoid engages, and the power to the starter is there, but the drive does not push the starter gear to engage the flywheel.
1, make very sure that the pos and neg cables are clean and tight to the battery, the starter, ground, and the fuse block.
2, Even though the battery is fairly new, have it load tested, they can fail even if new. you can't assume anything.
3, If you get into a no start situation, you can jump the solenoid, very carefully, if it starts your question is answered.
4, You can test the Neutral safety switch or the equivalent if a manual shift. I've seen these act like you describe. If it is that, when you get into a no start situation you can rock the shifter back and forth slowly between park and neutral, sometmes that will jog a bad switch to start.
These starting systems need a predetermined amount of current, if they don't get it, they will do nothing.
Hope some of this helps-- Good Luck
EDIT, When you hear a whrrrr as you engage the start circuit, it usually means a bad bendix drive,(as they used to call it), The solenoid engages, and the power to the starter is there, but the drive does not push the starter gear to engage the flywheel.
Last edited by bestvettever; 07-22-2008 at 12:08 PM.
07-22-2008, 12:12 PM
#3
Pro
Description of your starting system
Below is the description of the Start System
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Starting System Description and Operation
The PG starter motors are non-repairable starter motor. They have pole pieces that are arranged around the armature. Both solenoid windings are energized. The pull-in winding circuit is completed to the ground through the starter motor. The windings work together magnetically to pull and hold in the plunger. The plunger moves the shift lever. This action causes the starter drive assembly to rotate on the armature shaft spline as it engages with the flywheel ring gear on the engine. Moving at the same time, the plunger also closes the solenoid switch contacts in the starter solenoid. Full battery voltage is applied directly to the starter motor and it cranks the engine.
As soon as the solenoid switch contacts close, current stops flowing thorough the pull-in winding because battery voltage is applied to both ends of the windings. The hold-in winding remains energized; its magnetic field is strong enough to hold the plunger, shift lever, starter drive assembly, and solenoid switch contacts in place to continue cranking the engine. When the engine starts, pinion overrun protects the armature from excessive speed until the switch is opened.
When the ignition switch is released from the START position, the START relay opens and battery voltage is removed from the starter solenoid S terminal. Current flows from the motor contacts through both windings to the ground at the end of the hold-in winding. However, the direction of the current flow through the pull-in winding is now opposite the direction of the current flow when the winding was first energized.
The magnetic fields of the pull-in and hold-in windings now oppose one another. This action of the windings, along with the help of the return spring, causes the starter drive assembly to disengage and the solenoid switch contacts to open simultaneously. As soon as the contacts open, the starter circuit is turned off.
Circuit Description
Moving the ignition switch to the START position sends a 12 V signal to the PCM Ignition Crank Sense. The PCM verifies that the transmission is in the PARK or NEUTRAL position. The PCM then grounds the control circuit of the START relay. When the START relay is energized it allows voltage to the starter solenoid S terminal.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Starting System Description and Operation
The PG starter motors are non-repairable starter motor. They have pole pieces that are arranged around the armature. Both solenoid windings are energized. The pull-in winding circuit is completed to the ground through the starter motor. The windings work together magnetically to pull and hold in the plunger. The plunger moves the shift lever. This action causes the starter drive assembly to rotate on the armature shaft spline as it engages with the flywheel ring gear on the engine. Moving at the same time, the plunger also closes the solenoid switch contacts in the starter solenoid. Full battery voltage is applied directly to the starter motor and it cranks the engine.
As soon as the solenoid switch contacts close, current stops flowing thorough the pull-in winding because battery voltage is applied to both ends of the windings. The hold-in winding remains energized; its magnetic field is strong enough to hold the plunger, shift lever, starter drive assembly, and solenoid switch contacts in place to continue cranking the engine. When the engine starts, pinion overrun protects the armature from excessive speed until the switch is opened.
When the ignition switch is released from the START position, the START relay opens and battery voltage is removed from the starter solenoid S terminal. Current flows from the motor contacts through both windings to the ground at the end of the hold-in winding. However, the direction of the current flow through the pull-in winding is now opposite the direction of the current flow when the winding was first energized.
The magnetic fields of the pull-in and hold-in windings now oppose one another. This action of the windings, along with the help of the return spring, causes the starter drive assembly to disengage and the solenoid switch contacts to open simultaneously. As soon as the contacts open, the starter circuit is turned off.
Circuit Description
Moving the ignition switch to the START position sends a 12 V signal to the PCM Ignition Crank Sense. The PCM verifies that the transmission is in the PARK or NEUTRAL position. The PCM then grounds the control circuit of the START relay. When the START relay is energized it allows voltage to the starter solenoid S terminal.
07-22-2008, 12:21 PM
#4
Pro
Starter Diagnostics
Below is the diagnostic for a no click solenoid situation.
It's lengthy, but I'm sure you and others will benefit from reading it.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Starter Solenoid Does Not Click
Step
Action
Yes
No
Schematic Reference: Starting and Charging Schematics
1
Did you preform the Engine Electrical Diagnostic System Check?
Go to Step 2
Go to Diagnostic System Check - Engine Electrical
2
Turn the ignition switch to the START position.
Does the engine crank?
Go to Testing for Intermittent and Poor Connections in Wiring Systems
Go to Step 3
3
Turn the ignition switch to the START position.
Does the Theft Deterrent relay click?
Go to Step 7
Go to Step 4
4
Disconnect the Theft Deterrent relay.
Connect a test light from the supply voltage circuit of the theft deterrent relay coil circuit to ground.
With the transmission in park, or clutch pedal depressed, turn the ignition switch to the start position.
Does the test light illuminate?
Go to Step 5
Go to Step 6
5
Connect a test light from the supply voltage circuit of the Theft Deterrent relay coil circuit to the control circuit of the Theft Deterrent relay coil circuit.
With the transmission in park, or clutch pedal depressed, turn the ignition switch to the start position.
Does the test light illuminate?
Go to Step 13
Go to Step 10
6
Turn OFF the ignition.
Disconnect the Park Neutral Position (PNP) switch or Clutch Pedal Position switch.
Turn ON the ignition, with the Engine OFF.
Connect a 10 amp fused jumper between the Theft Deterrent relay coil control circuits of the PNP switch or Clutch Pedal Position switch.
With the transmission in park, or clutch pedal depressed, turn the ignition switch to the start position.
Does the test lamp illuminate?
Go to Step 14
Go to Step 11
7
Turn OFF the ignition.
Disconnect the Theft Deterrent relay.
Connect a test lamp between the battery positive voltage circuit of the Theft Deterrent relay switch circuit and a good ground.
Does the test lamp illuminate?
Go to Step 8
Go to Step 18
8
Connect a 30 amp fused jumper between the battery positive voltage circuit of the Theft Deterrent relay switch circuit and the supply voltage circuit of the starter solenoid.
Does the engine crank?
Go to Step 13
Go to Step 9
9
Does the fuse in the jumper open?
Go to Step 19
Go to Step 12
10
Test the control circuit of the Theft Deterrent relay for an open or high resistance. Refer to Circuit Testing and Wiring Repairs in Wiring Systems.
Did you find and correct the condition?
Go to Step 25
Go to Step 15
11
Test the supply voltage circuit of the Theft Deterrent relay coil circuit for an open or high resistance. Refer to Circuit Testing and Wiring Repairs in Wiring Systems.
Did you find and correct the condition?
Go to Step 25
Go to Step 16
12
Test the supply voltage circuit of the starter solenoid for an open or high resistance. Refer to Circuit Testing and Wiring Repairs in Wiring Systems.
Did you find and correct the condition?
Go to Step 25
Go to Step 17
13
Inspect for poor connections at the Theft Deterrent relay. Refer to Testing for Intermittent and Poor Connections and Connector Repairs in Wiring Systems.
Did you find and correct the condition?
Go to Step 25
Go to Step 20
14
If equipped with an Automatic Transmission Inspect for poor connection at the PNP switch harness connector. Refer to Testing for Intermittent and Poor Connections and Connector Repairs in Wiring Systems.
If equipped with a Manual Transmission inspect for poor connection at the Clutch Pedal Position switch harness connector. Refer to Testing for Intermittent and Poor Connections and Connector Repairs in Wiring Systems.
Did you find and correct the condition?
Go to Step 25
Go to Step 21
15
Inspect for poor connections at the BCM harness connector. Refer to Testing for Intermittent and Poor Connections and Connector Repairs in Wiring Systems.
Did you find and correct the condition?
Go to Step 25
Go to Step 22
16
Inspect for poor connections at the ignition switch harness connector. Refer to Testing for Intermittent and Poor Connections and Connector Repairs in Wiring Systems.
Did you find and correct the condition?
Go to Step 25
Go to Step 23
17
Inspect for poor connections at the starter solenoid. Refer to Testing for Intermittent and Poor Connections and Connector Repairs in Wiring Systems.
Did you find and correct the condition?
Go to Step 25
Go to Step 24
18
Repair the open or high resistance in the battery positive voltage circuit of the Theft Deterrent relay switch circuit. Refer to Wiring Repairs in Wiring Systems.
Did you complete the repair?
Go to Step 25
--
19
Repair the short to ground in the supply voltage circuit of the starter solenoid. Refer to Wiring Repairs in Wiring Systems.
Did you complete the repair?
Go to Step 25
--
20
Replace the Theft Deterrent relay.
Did you complete the replacement?
Go to Step 25
--
21
Replace the:
PNP switch. Refer to Park/Neutral Position Switch Replacement in Automatic Transmission - 4L60 - E.
Clutch Pedal Position switch. Refer to Clutch Pedal Position Switch Replacement in Manual Transmission - MM6.
Did you complete the replacement?
Go to Step 25
--
22
IMPORTANT:
Perform the set up procedures for the BCM.
Replace the BCM. Refer to Body Control Module Replacement in Body Control System.
Did you complete the replacement?
Go to Step 25
--
23
Replace the Ignition Switch. Refer to Ignition Switch Replacement in Instrument Panel, Gauges, and Console.
Did you complete the replacement?
Go to Step 25
--
24
Replace the starter. Refer to Starter Motor Replacement .
Did you complete the replacement?
Go to Step 25
--
25
Operate the system for which the symptom occurred.
Did you correct the condition?
System OK
Go to Step 2
It's lengthy, but I'm sure you and others will benefit from reading it.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Starter Solenoid Does Not Click
Step
Action
Yes
No
Schematic Reference: Starting and Charging Schematics
1
Did you preform the Engine Electrical Diagnostic System Check?
Go to Step 2
Go to Diagnostic System Check - Engine Electrical
2
Turn the ignition switch to the START position.
Does the engine crank?
Go to Testing for Intermittent and Poor Connections in Wiring Systems
Go to Step 3
3
Turn the ignition switch to the START position.
Does the Theft Deterrent relay click?
Go to Step 7
Go to Step 4
4
Disconnect the Theft Deterrent relay.
Connect a test light from the supply voltage circuit of the theft deterrent relay coil circuit to ground.
With the transmission in park, or clutch pedal depressed, turn the ignition switch to the start position.
Does the test light illuminate?
Go to Step 5
Go to Step 6
5
Connect a test light from the supply voltage circuit of the Theft Deterrent relay coil circuit to the control circuit of the Theft Deterrent relay coil circuit.
With the transmission in park, or clutch pedal depressed, turn the ignition switch to the start position.
Does the test light illuminate?
Go to Step 13
Go to Step 10
6
Turn OFF the ignition.
Disconnect the Park Neutral Position (PNP) switch or Clutch Pedal Position switch.
Turn ON the ignition, with the Engine OFF.
Connect a 10 amp fused jumper between the Theft Deterrent relay coil control circuits of the PNP switch or Clutch Pedal Position switch.
With the transmission in park, or clutch pedal depressed, turn the ignition switch to the start position.
Does the test lamp illuminate?
Go to Step 14
Go to Step 11
7
Turn OFF the ignition.
Disconnect the Theft Deterrent relay.
Connect a test lamp between the battery positive voltage circuit of the Theft Deterrent relay switch circuit and a good ground.
Does the test lamp illuminate?
Go to Step 8
Go to Step 18
8
Connect a 30 amp fused jumper between the battery positive voltage circuit of the Theft Deterrent relay switch circuit and the supply voltage circuit of the starter solenoid.
Does the engine crank?
Go to Step 13
Go to Step 9
9
Does the fuse in the jumper open?
Go to Step 19
Go to Step 12
10
Test the control circuit of the Theft Deterrent relay for an open or high resistance. Refer to Circuit Testing and Wiring Repairs in Wiring Systems.
Did you find and correct the condition?
Go to Step 25
Go to Step 15
11
Test the supply voltage circuit of the Theft Deterrent relay coil circuit for an open or high resistance. Refer to Circuit Testing and Wiring Repairs in Wiring Systems.
Did you find and correct the condition?
Go to Step 25
Go to Step 16
12
Test the supply voltage circuit of the starter solenoid for an open or high resistance. Refer to Circuit Testing and Wiring Repairs in Wiring Systems.
Did you find and correct the condition?
Go to Step 25
Go to Step 17
13
Inspect for poor connections at the Theft Deterrent relay. Refer to Testing for Intermittent and Poor Connections and Connector Repairs in Wiring Systems.
Did you find and correct the condition?
Go to Step 25
Go to Step 20
14
If equipped with an Automatic Transmission Inspect for poor connection at the PNP switch harness connector. Refer to Testing for Intermittent and Poor Connections and Connector Repairs in Wiring Systems.
If equipped with a Manual Transmission inspect for poor connection at the Clutch Pedal Position switch harness connector. Refer to Testing for Intermittent and Poor Connections and Connector Repairs in Wiring Systems.
Did you find and correct the condition?
Go to Step 25
Go to Step 21
15
Inspect for poor connections at the BCM harness connector. Refer to Testing for Intermittent and Poor Connections and Connector Repairs in Wiring Systems.
Did you find and correct the condition?
Go to Step 25
Go to Step 22
16
Inspect for poor connections at the ignition switch harness connector. Refer to Testing for Intermittent and Poor Connections and Connector Repairs in Wiring Systems.
Did you find and correct the condition?
Go to Step 25
Go to Step 23
17
Inspect for poor connections at the starter solenoid. Refer to Testing for Intermittent and Poor Connections and Connector Repairs in Wiring Systems.
Did you find and correct the condition?
Go to Step 25
Go to Step 24
18
Repair the open or high resistance in the battery positive voltage circuit of the Theft Deterrent relay switch circuit. Refer to Wiring Repairs in Wiring Systems.
Did you complete the repair?
Go to Step 25
--
19
Repair the short to ground in the supply voltage circuit of the starter solenoid. Refer to Wiring Repairs in Wiring Systems.
Did you complete the repair?
Go to Step 25
--
20
Replace the Theft Deterrent relay.
Did you complete the replacement?
Go to Step 25
--
21
Replace the:
PNP switch. Refer to Park/Neutral Position Switch Replacement in Automatic Transmission - 4L60 - E.
Clutch Pedal Position switch. Refer to Clutch Pedal Position Switch Replacement in Manual Transmission - MM6.
Did you complete the replacement?
Go to Step 25
--
22
IMPORTANT:
Perform the set up procedures for the BCM.
Replace the BCM. Refer to Body Control Module Replacement in Body Control System.
Did you complete the replacement?
Go to Step 25
--
23
Replace the Ignition Switch. Refer to Ignition Switch Replacement in Instrument Panel, Gauges, and Console.
Did you complete the replacement?
Go to Step 25
--
24
Replace the starter. Refer to Starter Motor Replacement .
Did you complete the replacement?
Go to Step 25
--
25
Operate the system for which the symptom occurred.
Did you correct the condition?
System OK
Go to Step 2
11-03-2008, 03:40 PM
#5
Racer
Member Since: Jul 2002
Location: Rancho Santa Margarita Ca
Posts: 437
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Received 0 Likes
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Hi all I have been reading all thesde no starts and gonna do an ignition switch, car has been at dealer for 2 weeks keep giving it back and it keeps intermittantly no starting. I am wondering though it is a stick and when it wont start it will push start, does that rule out anit theft ? Is there no starter relay ? Starter has already been ruled out by dealer, no power when it wont start.
