What's Inside Your 97-00 ABS Module (Photos)
05-12-2012, 02:07 AM
#1
Safety Car
Thread Starter
What's Inside Your 97-00 ABS Module (Photos)
Hey guys,
Marc @ Vettenuts was kind enough to send me a dead unit to take apart and play with.
I heard about potting, can't get them apart etc. So I took this one apart.
The board is held in with 2 screws and is soldered to 2 connectors. The upper one brings in power from the car to the board and the lower one is the output to the solenoids. A little tricky to unsolder unless you are an electronics geek like me.
Board Removed
Underneath is where the magic happens. And is also the world I live in professionally. Pretty cool.
The large white circuit is a ceramic hybrid. It contains surface mount caps, one 8 pin IC, and a few surface mount resistors. It also contains a lot of printed resistors that are laser trimmed for value. They are actually part of the raw hybrid.
The large square shiny items are flip chip IC's. A flip chip has the connections on the side you can't see, and are actually solder bumps that are reflow soldered to the hybrid. The black stuff that looks like it is running out from underneath is called underfill. It essentially seals the connections, helps transfer heat to the substrate.
The wires coming off each end of the hybrid to the connectors are welded aluminum wires that bring the signals and power in and out.
This is a multi layer substrate. There are traces (wires) inside that you can't see.
Another thing you can't see, and what is causing the picture to be a tad blurry, is the clear silicone type potting compound covering the entire surface. It is very pliable. I can poke at the wires right through it. Think of clear jello! Very strange. This covering keeps all moisture out, and helps the unit withstand vibration.
Even though it is 12-15 years old technology, it's pretty high tech ****. In todays world, components are smaller, and the IC's more dense.
The printed circuit board is very conventional. Caps, diodes and relays. The high power side of the unit.
So, the big question. Can it be fixed?
Everything on the external board can be tested. Could get lucky and find something bad. It is actually pretty simple. If all those parts are good........going to be real difficult to repair the hybrid.
Other than the welded connections, without a schematic....good luck there.....I'm going to have to say no. Not unless someone from GM kicks out the schematic and test procedure for the built hybrid.
Enjoy the photo!
There are some numbers on this unit.
ABS-5/TCS/MSVA2
Delphi 09356961
6961 92010251
The one on my 2000 says TCS/AH, so my guess is the one in the photos is not an active handling unit ????
Marc didn't tell me what it came from.
I hope the steering wheel sensor is a lot less complicated.
Ron
Marc @ Vettenuts was kind enough to send me a dead unit to take apart and play with.
I heard about potting, can't get them apart etc. So I took this one apart.
The board is held in with 2 screws and is soldered to 2 connectors. The upper one brings in power from the car to the board and the lower one is the output to the solenoids. A little tricky to unsolder unless you are an electronics geek like me.
Board Removed
Underneath is where the magic happens. And is also the world I live in professionally. Pretty cool.
The large white circuit is a ceramic hybrid. It contains surface mount caps, one 8 pin IC, and a few surface mount resistors. It also contains a lot of printed resistors that are laser trimmed for value. They are actually part of the raw hybrid.
The large square shiny items are flip chip IC's. A flip chip has the connections on the side you can't see, and are actually solder bumps that are reflow soldered to the hybrid. The black stuff that looks like it is running out from underneath is called underfill. It essentially seals the connections, helps transfer heat to the substrate.
The wires coming off each end of the hybrid to the connectors are welded aluminum wires that bring the signals and power in and out.
This is a multi layer substrate. There are traces (wires) inside that you can't see.
Another thing you can't see, and what is causing the picture to be a tad blurry, is the clear silicone type potting compound covering the entire surface. It is very pliable. I can poke at the wires right through it. Think of clear jello! Very strange. This covering keeps all moisture out, and helps the unit withstand vibration.
Even though it is 12-15 years old technology, it's pretty high tech ****. In todays world, components are smaller, and the IC's more dense.
The printed circuit board is very conventional. Caps, diodes and relays. The high power side of the unit.
So, the big question. Can it be fixed?
Everything on the external board can be tested. Could get lucky and find something bad. It is actually pretty simple. If all those parts are good........going to be real difficult to repair the hybrid.
Other than the welded connections, without a schematic....good luck there.....I'm going to have to say no. Not unless someone from GM kicks out the schematic and test procedure for the built hybrid.
Enjoy the photo!
There are some numbers on this unit.
ABS-5/TCS/MSVA2
Delphi 09356961
6961 92010251
The one on my 2000 says TCS/AH, so my guess is the one in the photos is not an active handling unit ????
Marc didn't tell me what it came from.
I hope the steering wheel sensor is a lot less complicated.
Ron
Last edited by RonSSNova; 05-12-2012 at 04:19 AM.
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mrr23 (10-08-2015)
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mrr23 (10-08-2015)
05-12-2012, 06:20 AM
#4
Wow that looks complicated for a non electrical guy like me. So I guess what we have learned is that they probably can't be repaired even though some places say they can...They are probably just checking the same things you did hoping they find something there...Great pics though thanks for the info. I hope something gets figured out someday or a lot of people are going to have expensive cars that they can't fix as these parts become harder to find.
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mrr23 (10-08-2015)
05-12-2012, 06:51 AM
#5
Instructor
Considering that it's typically NOT the ICs that die, but rather more mundane things like connections, solder joints, etc - did you notice anything suspicious?
I found a lot of "early" flip chips (similar vintage to these) to have problems with reliability of their reflow connection to the substrate which sometimes could be fixed by reflowing either just the flip chips or the complete board. I would offer my help with this (I'm an electrical engineer, and we have an SMD reflow rework station at work), but what would really help with debugging would be if one didn't have to put it back into a car to see if anything changed. Like powering it up and watching hat it spits out through the comm bus. Any thoughts?
I found a lot of "early" flip chips (similar vintage to these) to have problems with reliability of their reflow connection to the substrate which sometimes could be fixed by reflowing either just the flip chips or the complete board. I would offer my help with this (I'm an electrical engineer, and we have an SMD reflow rework station at work), but what would really help with debugging would be if one didn't have to put it back into a car to see if anything changed. Like powering it up and watching hat it spits out through the comm bus. Any thoughts?
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mrr23 (10-08-2015)
05-12-2012, 11:23 AM
#6
Safety Car
Thread Starter
Considering that it's typically NOT the ICs that die, but rather more mundane things like connections, solder joints, etc - did you notice anything suspicious?
I found a lot of "early" flip chips (similar vintage to these) to have problems with reliability of their reflow connection to the substrate which sometimes could be fixed by reflowing either just the flip chips or the complete board. I would offer my help with this (I'm an electrical engineer, and we have an SMD reflow rework station at work), but what would really help with debugging would be if one didn't have to put it back into a car to see if anything changed. Like powering it up and watching hat it spits out through the comm bus. Any thoughts?
I found a lot of "early" flip chips (similar vintage to these) to have problems with reliability of their reflow connection to the substrate which sometimes could be fixed by reflowing either just the flip chips or the complete board. I would offer my help with this (I'm an electrical engineer, and we have an SMD reflow rework station at work), but what would really help with debugging would be if one didn't have to put it back into a car to see if anything changed. Like powering it up and watching hat it spits out through the comm bus. Any thoughts?
I agree with the reflow possibility. But you would have to remove the goo covering the hybrid.
I assume your reflow station is like a fancy heat gun setup. We have those too.
BTW, I work for Tektronix Component Solutions Organization, formerly known as Maxtek, and before that we were called Hybrid Circuits Organization. We manufacture many such similar assemblies. Although smaller.
And right, you would have to have a test system to check functionality.
I imagine that exists somewhere, GM or Bosch. If they didn't tear it apart.
I used to be a tech, now I'm a project manager. Go figure!
Ron
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mrr23 (10-08-2015)
05-13-2012, 06:28 AM
#7
Drifting
How hard would it be to make an extender cable to go between the EBCM and the BPMV? That way it could be tested and check some of the functionality? It would make testing the EBCM easier rather than having to install completely and find out it failed again.
05-13-2012, 12:02 PM
#9
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great post! As far as a GM guy helping out, I doubt it...back in the beginning there was a GM engineer on the forum...Steve Stringfellow, and he was a great asset. However, at some point GM put an end to his participation here...of course, that was the way old GM...around 1998-99.
I would guess the parts were made in the USA most likely at one of the larger vendors, or even Delphi, if they were around at that point in time...I can't remember. Like most automotive parts, there is a code for the manufacturer...we just need to find it, and know the translation...you've seen the date codes molded into plastic parts; or on fasteners having the manufacturer code stamped into the head of larger bolts.
Someone in GM Purchasing, or the actual design office in Product Development has the info in a file. Only issue, the guys are probably retired by now!
Here's another idea...as far as that goo goes, there is a possibility a solvent exists to dissolve it out of there...if it is a silicone compound, which I suspect it is, we are out of luck...silicones are highly insoluble, but you never know. Being of a jello like consistency, the compound may be slightly cured, and therefore, soluble in one of the more aggressive chemicals. Not an expert on electronic component's chemical resistance, but I suspect they would not be attacked by any solvents....worth a try. Start with strong ones like MEK, any chlorinated solvents, or acetone...etc. Hope you find a solution because the unavailability of parts is a growing list right now on these great cars.
I would guess the parts were made in the USA most likely at one of the larger vendors, or even Delphi, if they were around at that point in time...I can't remember. Like most automotive parts, there is a code for the manufacturer...we just need to find it, and know the translation...you've seen the date codes molded into plastic parts; or on fasteners having the manufacturer code stamped into the head of larger bolts.
Someone in GM Purchasing, or the actual design office in Product Development has the info in a file. Only issue, the guys are probably retired by now!
Here's another idea...as far as that goo goes, there is a possibility a solvent exists to dissolve it out of there...if it is a silicone compound, which I suspect it is, we are out of luck...silicones are highly insoluble, but you never know. Being of a jello like consistency, the compound may be slightly cured, and therefore, soluble in one of the more aggressive chemicals. Not an expert on electronic component's chemical resistance, but I suspect they would not be attacked by any solvents....worth a try. Start with strong ones like MEK, any chlorinated solvents, or acetone...etc. Hope you find a solution because the unavailability of parts is a growing list right now on these great cars.
Last edited by $$$frumnuttin'; 05-13-2012 at 12:10 PM.
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mrr23 (10-08-2015)
05-13-2012, 12:07 PM
#10
Melting Slicks
Member Since: Dec 2003
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Delphi 09356961
6961 92010251
However they more then likely purchased the circuit boards from someone else or even the entire unit and just put their own numbers on it.
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mrr23 (10-08-2015)
05-13-2012, 12:15 PM
#11
Team Owner
I would suppose, eventually, to keep our cars running without a nightmare of display codes, we'll rip out the code and rip out the electronics for the ABS and the TC and the AH, and re-plumb everything into an old-fashioned no-ABS brake system...
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mrr23 (10-08-2015)
05-13-2012, 12:24 PM
#12
Drifting
Mine, 99 w AH says assembled in Mexico. Who knows where the boards came from. I would guess Malasia/Taiwan/China....anywhere but here.
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mrr23 (10-08-2015)
05-13-2012, 02:29 PM
#13
Safety Car
Thread Starter
great post!
Here's another idea...as far as that goo goes, there is a possibility a solvent exists to dissolve it out of there...if it is a silicone compound, which I suspect it is, we are out of luck...silicones are highly insoluble, but you never know. Being of a jello like consistency, the compound may be slightly cured, and therefore, soluble in one of the more aggressive chemicals. Not an expert on electronic component's chemical resistance, but I suspect they would not be attacked by any solvents....worth a try. Start with strong ones like MEK, any chlorinated solvents, or acetone...etc. Hope you find a solution because the unavailability of parts is a growing list right now on these great cars.
Here's another idea...as far as that goo goes, there is a possibility a solvent exists to dissolve it out of there...if it is a silicone compound, which I suspect it is, we are out of luck...silicones are highly insoluble, but you never know. Being of a jello like consistency, the compound may be slightly cured, and therefore, soluble in one of the more aggressive chemicals. Not an expert on electronic component's chemical resistance, but I suspect they would not be attacked by any solvents....worth a try. Start with strong ones like MEK, any chlorinated solvents, or acetone...etc. Hope you find a solution because the unavailability of parts is a growing list right now on these great cars.
Of the bigger question would be can you remove it non-destructively.
Even with the goo removed, how would one troubleshoot it?
Ron
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05-13-2012, 03:59 PM
#14
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Wounded Warrior Escort '11
We use to call the goo, "ConformalCoat" or something like that. I'm not sure of the spelling. It was to protect the circuits from contaminates from the air, moisture and etc...certainly non-conductive.
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mrr23 (10-08-2015)
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05-13-2012, 08:24 PM
#18
Team Owner
Hey guys,
Marc @ Vettenuts was kind enough to send me a dead unit to take apart and play with.
I heard about potting, can't get them apart etc. So I took this one apart.
The board is held in with 2 screws and is soldered to 2 connectors. The upper one brings in power from the car to the board and the lower one is the output to the solenoids. A little tricky to unsolder unless you are an electronics geek like me.
Board Removed
Underneath is where the magic happens. And is also the world I live in professionally. Pretty cool.
The large white circuit is a ceramic hybrid. It contains surface mount caps, one 8 pin IC, and a few surface mount resistors. It also contains a lot of printed resistors that are laser trimmed for value. They are actually part of the raw hybrid.
The large square shiny items are flip chip IC's. A flip chip has the connections on the side you can't see, and are actually solder bumps that are reflow soldered to the hybrid. The black stuff that looks like it is running out from underneath is called underfill. It essentially seals the connections, helps transfer heat to the substrate.
The wires coming off each end of the hybrid to the connectors are welded aluminum wires that bring the signals and power in and out.
This is a multi layer substrate. There are traces (wires) inside that you can't see.
Another thing you can't see, and what is causing the picture to be a tad blurry, is the clear silicone type potting compound covering the entire surface. It is very pliable. I can poke at the wires right through it. Think of clear jello! Very strange. This covering keeps all moisture out, and helps the unit withstand vibration.
Even though it is 12-15 years old technology, it's pretty high tech ****. In todays world, components are smaller, and the IC's more dense.
The printed circuit board is very conventional. Caps, diodes and relays. The high power side of the unit.
So, the big question. Can it be fixed?
Everything on the external board can be tested. Could get lucky and find something bad. It is actually pretty simple. If all those parts are good........going to be real difficult to repair the hybrid.
Other than the welded connections, without a schematic....good luck there.....I'm going to have to say no. Not unless someone from GM kicks out the schematic and test procedure for the built hybrid.
Enjoy the photo!
There are some numbers on this unit.
ABS-5/TCS/MSVA2
Delphi 09356961
6961 92010251
The one on my 2000 says TCS/AH, so my guess is the one in the photos is not an active handling unit ????
Marc didn't tell me what it came from.
I hope the steering wheel sensor is a lot less complicated.
Ron
Marc @ Vettenuts was kind enough to send me a dead unit to take apart and play with.
I heard about potting, can't get them apart etc. So I took this one apart.
The board is held in with 2 screws and is soldered to 2 connectors. The upper one brings in power from the car to the board and the lower one is the output to the solenoids. A little tricky to unsolder unless you are an electronics geek like me.
Board Removed
Underneath is where the magic happens. And is also the world I live in professionally. Pretty cool.
The large white circuit is a ceramic hybrid. It contains surface mount caps, one 8 pin IC, and a few surface mount resistors. It also contains a lot of printed resistors that are laser trimmed for value. They are actually part of the raw hybrid.
The large square shiny items are flip chip IC's. A flip chip has the connections on the side you can't see, and are actually solder bumps that are reflow soldered to the hybrid. The black stuff that looks like it is running out from underneath is called underfill. It essentially seals the connections, helps transfer heat to the substrate.
The wires coming off each end of the hybrid to the connectors are welded aluminum wires that bring the signals and power in and out.
This is a multi layer substrate. There are traces (wires) inside that you can't see.
Another thing you can't see, and what is causing the picture to be a tad blurry, is the clear silicone type potting compound covering the entire surface. It is very pliable. I can poke at the wires right through it. Think of clear jello! Very strange. This covering keeps all moisture out, and helps the unit withstand vibration.
Even though it is 12-15 years old technology, it's pretty high tech ****. In todays world, components are smaller, and the IC's more dense.
The printed circuit board is very conventional. Caps, diodes and relays. The high power side of the unit.
So, the big question. Can it be fixed?
Everything on the external board can be tested. Could get lucky and find something bad. It is actually pretty simple. If all those parts are good........going to be real difficult to repair the hybrid.
Other than the welded connections, without a schematic....good luck there.....I'm going to have to say no. Not unless someone from GM kicks out the schematic and test procedure for the built hybrid.
Enjoy the photo!
There are some numbers on this unit.
ABS-5/TCS/MSVA2
Delphi 09356961
6961 92010251
The one on my 2000 says TCS/AH, so my guess is the one in the photos is not an active handling unit ????
Marc didn't tell me what it came from.
I hope the steering wheel sensor is a lot less complicated.
Ron
This is excellent I have wanted to do this for quite some time too - I was at one time supposed to send my OLD broken (non-working one to you "IF" memory serves me right) Got injured at work and a lot of things got turned upside down!
Although I do not have the expertise you have I at least can follow and did a small right up on a similar unit just being able to trace out the circuit, with color dots etc.
You do indeed have a NON-Active Handling Unit there that you are working on. Works on 1997-2000 Corvettes
I still have mine on the shelf - if you need, it's the same unit!
Considering that it's typically NOT the ICs that die, but rather more mundane things like connections, solder joints, etc - did you notice anything suspicious?
I found a lot of "early" flip chips (similar vintage to these) to have problems with reliability of their reflow connection to the substrate which sometimes could be fixed by reflowing either just the flip chips or the complete board. I would offer my help with this (I'm an electrical engineer, and we have an SMD reflow rework station at work), but what would really help with debugging would be if one didn't have to put it back into a car to see if anything changed. Like powering it up and watching hat it spits out through the comm bus. Any thoughts?
I found a lot of "early" flip chips (similar vintage to these) to have problems with reliability of their reflow connection to the substrate which sometimes could be fixed by reflowing either just the flip chips or the complete board. I would offer my help with this (I'm an electrical engineer, and we have an SMD reflow rework station at work), but what would really help with debugging would be if one didn't have to put it back into a car to see if anything changed. Like powering it up and watching hat it spits out through the comm bus. Any thoughts?
Nothing at all obvious on the PCB. All the solder joints were good.
I agree with the reflow possibility. But you would have to remove the goo covering the hybrid.
I assume your reflow station is like a fancy heat gun setup. We have those too.
BTW, I work for Tektronix Component Solutions Organization, formerly known as Maxtek, and before that we were called Hybrid Circuits Organization. We manufacture many such similar assemblies. Although smaller.
And right, you would have to have a test system to check functionality.
I imagine that exists somewhere, GM or Bosch. If they didn't tear it apart.
I used to be a tech, now I'm a project manager. Go figure!
Ron
I agree with the reflow possibility. But you would have to remove the goo covering the hybrid.
I assume your reflow station is like a fancy heat gun setup. We have those too.
BTW, I work for Tektronix Component Solutions Organization, formerly known as Maxtek, and before that we were called Hybrid Circuits Organization. We manufacture many such similar assemblies. Although smaller.
And right, you would have to have a test system to check functionality.
I imagine that exists somewhere, GM or Bosch. If they didn't tear it apart.
I used to be a tech, now I'm a project manager. Go figure!
Ron
I will take it in to work tomorrow and let the failure analysis gal have a look at it. She knows how to dissolve goo. so in a minute, I'll know if it can or can't be done.
Of the bigger question would be can you remove it non-destructively.
Even with the goo removed, how would one troubleshoot it?
Ron
Of the bigger question would be can you remove it non-destructively.
Even with the goo removed, how would one troubleshoot it?
Ron
"IF" there is anything I can do or try to do, I will do -
I will effort on any information dealing with the schematic - perhaps my dad, long time GM employee can help too.
BUT the schematic would be golden to have, talk about re-manufacturing a very necessary piece - "OR" least be able to repair them, especially since you have gone so far now!
(1) Would heat be able to dissolve or melt the gelatinous material it is sunk it?
(2) Or would that not work?
I am staying posted!
Thanks,Matt
661-406-7516
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mrr23 (10-08-2015)
05-13-2012, 09:40 PM
#19
Safety Car
Thread Starter
Hi Matt,
Sorry to hear you got hurt. Glad you are ok.
I had completely forgotten that you might send me a dead one of these.
Since these go in the engine compartment, I'd have to say no to the heat.
I'll know shortly after arriving at work in the morning.
I did poke at the wires that attach to the connectors, but not all of them. I'm such a nerd, I have a good microscope here at home. Very handy as the eyes get older.
Modern electronics is not fair to us older folks. Our eyes get worse, and the components get smaller! Surface mount capacitors and resistors these days are about the size of a grain of coarse ground pepper!
I can check for cold solder joints etc. The resistors are printed on the substrate. They likely won't change value. W/O a schematic, don't know what they are supposed to measure anyway.
Another thing that can happen to an assembly like these is cracking of the ceramic substrate. If the thermal expansion of the epoxy used to mount it doesn't allow for the alum housing and the substrate to expand and contract at different rates, which they will, the substrate can suffer micro fractures that are VERY hard to see. Not hard to measure though, if you have the, you guessed it, schematic.
I don't believe the flip chip IC's could be replaced, even if you could get them.
We will keep poking around. And who knows!
How's the car Matt? My buddy with the low 10sec blown Z06 Auto conversion melted #7 along with the cylinder wall! Never seen anything like it. I tell ya, you blower guys!
Ron
Sorry to hear you got hurt. Glad you are ok.
I had completely forgotten that you might send me a dead one of these.
Since these go in the engine compartment, I'd have to say no to the heat.
I'll know shortly after arriving at work in the morning.
I did poke at the wires that attach to the connectors, but not all of them. I'm such a nerd, I have a good microscope here at home. Very handy as the eyes get older.
Modern electronics is not fair to us older folks. Our eyes get worse, and the components get smaller! Surface mount capacitors and resistors these days are about the size of a grain of coarse ground pepper!
I can check for cold solder joints etc. The resistors are printed on the substrate. They likely won't change value. W/O a schematic, don't know what they are supposed to measure anyway.
Another thing that can happen to an assembly like these is cracking of the ceramic substrate. If the thermal expansion of the epoxy used to mount it doesn't allow for the alum housing and the substrate to expand and contract at different rates, which they will, the substrate can suffer micro fractures that are VERY hard to see. Not hard to measure though, if you have the, you guessed it, schematic.
I don't believe the flip chip IC's could be replaced, even if you could get them.
We will keep poking around. And who knows!
How's the car Matt? My buddy with the low 10sec blown Z06 Auto conversion melted #7 along with the cylinder wall! Never seen anything like it. I tell ya, you blower guys!
Ron
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mrr23 (10-08-2015)
05-13-2012, 09:43 PM
#20
Racer
I'm interested to know if anyone has done this to an early C5. I hate ABS and would like to eliminate it entirely. Replumbing the brake lines is no major deal. If you completely unplug the ABS system would you have the DIC screaming at you all the time saying you have an ABS problem?
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