Cranks, no start, then starts right up
10-02-2017, 12:40 AM
#1
Racer
Thread Starter
Cranks, no start, then starts right up
I know, I know, I've seen a lot of things about the fuel line with the check valve in it, but my symptoms are ever so slightly different.
99 coupe, mostly stock (pro flow airbox and axle back), manual.
So I can crank crank crank and it doesn't start. Try again and it fires up like clockwork. HERE'S where I feel my issue may be different:
If its been sitting and I key on to run the fuel pump... 2, 3, 4 times... crank the engine and still no start. Crank a second time and it fires right up. I can ALSO drive it to work, or out to dinner and it will fire right up the first time when I clock out to go home or we finish dinner and leave. All this leads me to believe my fuel pressure is holding decent enough. From what I read (and i did a helluva search before starting this thread) when its the check valve in the fuel line it loses fuel pressure within minutes, if not seconds.
Now, generally the car will sit for a week at a time and I'd EXPECT the fuel pressure to bleed down over that amount of time. But I will get this issue if it sits for just a day. Wondering if theres any other known issue to cause something like this. Maybe an issue with the key pellet? Crank sensor or something? Again, the car will crank like a champ the first try, just doesn't start.
I HAVE recently replaced the fuel filter (the kind with the regulator because 1999) with an AC Delco. At the moment I haven't pulled for codes but I will in the morning. I also may check actually measure the fuel pressure just in case but I'll have to borrow the "community" fuel pressure gauge from work
Edit: I forgot to mention the car also has the LMC5 installed WITH the brown wire mod.
99 coupe, mostly stock (pro flow airbox and axle back), manual.
So I can crank crank crank and it doesn't start. Try again and it fires up like clockwork. HERE'S where I feel my issue may be different:
If its been sitting and I key on to run the fuel pump... 2, 3, 4 times... crank the engine and still no start. Crank a second time and it fires right up. I can ALSO drive it to work, or out to dinner and it will fire right up the first time when I clock out to go home or we finish dinner and leave. All this leads me to believe my fuel pressure is holding decent enough. From what I read (and i did a helluva search before starting this thread) when its the check valve in the fuel line it loses fuel pressure within minutes, if not seconds.
Now, generally the car will sit for a week at a time and I'd EXPECT the fuel pressure to bleed down over that amount of time. But I will get this issue if it sits for just a day. Wondering if theres any other known issue to cause something like this. Maybe an issue with the key pellet? Crank sensor or something? Again, the car will crank like a champ the first try, just doesn't start.
I HAVE recently replaced the fuel filter (the kind with the regulator because 1999) with an AC Delco. At the moment I haven't pulled for codes but I will in the morning. I also may check actually measure the fuel pressure just in case but I'll have to borrow the "community" fuel pressure gauge from work
Edit: I forgot to mention the car also has the LMC5 installed WITH the brown wire mod.
Last edited by acuevo; 10-02-2017 at 12:57 AM.
10-02-2017, 09:13 AM
#2
Racer
Thread Starter
All of the items that you listed EXCEPT the key pellet are possibilities for your symptoms. A problem reading the key pellet correctly would result in a NO CRANK condition and NOT in a crank-no-start. Incorrectly reading the key pellet means that the TDR is not enabled resulting in NO POWER to the starter solenoid and hence a NO CRANK condition.
Without the technical data (fuel pressure readings and codes) all any of us can do is guess just as you are doing, unfortunately..........
I'll add a bad ignition switch to the list of possibilties.
Without the technical data (fuel pressure readings and codes) all any of us can do is guess just as you are doing, unfortunately..........
I'll add a bad ignition switch to the list of possibilties.
BCM:
B2527 (history)
B2578 (history)
B2583 (history)
B2587 (history)
B2592 (history)
H0-LDCM:
B2282 (history)
B2284 (history)
U1064 (history)
H1-RDCM:
B2283 (history)
B2285 (history)
U1064 (history)
B0-RFA:
C2120 (history and current) Car doesn't have TPMS sensors, this ones not a surprise.
Looked all of these up and they all seem power seat/exterior light related. Guess I'll be checking fuel pressure, hopefully this week sometime if I can find the right fitting at work. If not I'll just buy a new gauge.
Regarding the ignition switch, two questions:
1. If I were having an issue there does it typically set a code? And is there a way to test it?
2. I'm not super familiar with how the computers work together on these, at work when we have a bad ignition switch it usually won't crank at all (newer vehicles), the way I understand what you're saying is that it can still crank and not start with a bad ignition switch?
Thanks for the help 8VETTE7, I really appreciate it.
10-02-2017, 10:47 AM
#4
Tech Contributor
Member Since: Dec 1999
Location: Anthony TX
Posts: 32,736
Received 2,180 Likes
on
1,583 Posts
CI 6,7,8,9,11 Vet
St. Jude Donor '08
I agree! 
CLEAR ALL of those DTCs.
The very next time you get a crank/no start, IMMEDIATELY (without turning the ignition switch to OFF. (LEAVE IT IN ON) Read the DTCs and post up what you see when it will not run.
bill
CLEAR ALL of those DTCs.The very next time you get a crank/no start, IMMEDIATELY (without turning the ignition switch to OFF. (LEAVE IT IN ON) Read the DTCs and post up what you see when it will not run.
bill
10-02-2017, 10:57 AM
#5
Racer
Thread Starter
Awesome guys, good info here! Again I really appreciate the help. I probably will buy a gauge since I should really have one anyway. I may be a little slow going with this thread but hopefully I'll have fuel pressure readings by the end of the week.
10-07-2017, 04:50 PM
#6
Racer
Thread Starter
Alright I was able to check fuel pressure today. Didn't check while running, but with just a key on cycle the pressure gets to a little over 50 psi and slowly dropped to 20ish. After about five minutes, and it seemed to stop moving there.
Didn't have time to check the ground mentioned but its on my list. How long should it be holding at 50ish psi?
Didn't have time to check the ground mentioned but its on my list. How long should it be holding at 50ish psi?
10-07-2017, 04:51 PM
#7
Racer
Thread Starter
Forgot to mention, no codes this morning after having this condition.
10-07-2017, 06:19 PM
#8
Racer
Thread Starter
Fuel pressure should come up to about 58lbs and should be able to hold the pressure for longer than 5 minutes. Pressure bleeding off could be a bad fuel filter since the filter is also the pressure regulator on the 99 through first half year 2003. Could also be a failing check valve between the tank and the fuel filter or it could be leaking injectors or a leak somewhere else in the fuel lines. Hope its not the check valve because that is NLA from GM. 
There are aftermarket check valves that can be installed but they require some work because they are not plug and play for the C5.........
I would start by replacing the current fuel filter with a new one and see where you are. Get a good fuel filter and not the cheapest you can find.
Until you isolate the cause of the pressure dropping off you can turn the key to the ON position and listen for the fuel pump to shut off BEFORE you crank the car. Should be easy to hear the pump as its right behind the driver and the early year pumps were typically pretty noisy...........
There are aftermarket check valves that can be installed but they require some work because they are not plug and play for the C5......... I would start by replacing the current fuel filter with a new one and see where you are. Get a good fuel filter and not the cheapest you can find.
Until you isolate the cause of the pressure dropping off you can turn the key to the ON position and listen for the fuel pump to shut off BEFORE you crank the car. Should be easy to hear the pump as its right behind the driver and the early year pumps were typically pretty noisy...........
10-07-2017, 06:37 PM
#9
Racer
Thread Starter
Are you hearing the pump run when you turn the key to ON?? It should run even if very briefly. If it is NOT running then I would check the fuse, and relay. Could ALSO be a bad ignition switch, as I have mentioned in earlier posts, that is not powering the fuel pump fuse/relay correctly the first time you crank the car but does the next time. Bad ignition switch could/would result in intermittent starting results similar to what you are seeing. However it would not contribute to a fuel pressure leak down. That is a separate issue IMHO.
It may also be worth noting that when I removed the gauge today (thus relieving the 20 psi that was left in there) it STILL started right up.
Last edited by acuevo; 10-07-2017 at 06:38 PM.
10-07-2017, 07:01 PM
#10
Racer
Thread Starter
While having fuel pressure bleed down is not ideal, if the car runs strong when it is running, the problem may NOT be fuel pressure related.
Several other possibilities come to mind.
No spark perhaps because of an ignition switch issue. ie not powering the coils (fuse #16 and relay #42 in the under hood fuse box). Coils are powered in ON and START of the ignition switch.
Possibly a crank position sensor or cam position sensor issue. Crank position sensor is well known for NOT setting codes in the early stages of failure.
Several other possibilities come to mind.
No spark perhaps because of an ignition switch issue. ie not powering the coils (fuse #16 and relay #42 in the under hood fuse box). Coils are powered in ON and START of the ignition switch.
Possibly a crank position sensor or cam position sensor issue. Crank position sensor is well known for NOT setting codes in the early stages of failure.
10-13-2017, 10:56 AM
#11
Racer
Thread Starter
Another update. Checked the ignition fuse and both injector fuses (for ***** and giggles) after not driving since last saturday. KOEO WITHOUT starting the car prior - I had slightly less than battery voltage on both sides of those fuses. Also pulled the relay to make sure its clicking.
Here are some more interesting facts, however. Checked batt voltage since I know this can cause many issues. It was only at about 12.05 volts or so. I'm not having any other strange problems with the car.
Even MORE interesting... after all that I tried to start it. It cranked for maybe a second and fired right up the first time. Talk about WEIRD. So we're definitely not looking at fuel pressure now - It started like that after having the KOEO condition for a few minutes while I was checking my voltages and pulled the relay (which yes, set a throttle pos sensor performance code, to be expected. Cleared that).
I tried my best to examine G107 as mentioned, but its pretty nice and buried. Without my tools from work I won't be able to do much to inspect it so I'll do that next time I bring it to work... which frankly could be a while lol (Parking lot is a disaster... very scary).
So I may be doing a battery soon - or at least getting a trickle charger or something.
Here are some more interesting facts, however. Checked batt voltage since I know this can cause many issues. It was only at about 12.05 volts or so. I'm not having any other strange problems with the car.
Even MORE interesting... after all that I tried to start it. It cranked for maybe a second and fired right up the first time. Talk about WEIRD. So we're definitely not looking at fuel pressure now - It started like that after having the KOEO condition for a few minutes while I was checking my voltages and pulled the relay (which yes, set a throttle pos sensor performance code, to be expected. Cleared that).
I tried my best to examine G107 as mentioned, but its pretty nice and buried. Without my tools from work I won't be able to do much to inspect it so I'll do that next time I bring it to work... which frankly could be a while lol (Parking lot is a disaster... very scary).
So I may be doing a battery soon - or at least getting a trickle charger or something.
Last edited by acuevo; 10-13-2017 at 10:57 AM.
10-13-2017, 12:05 PM
#12
Tech Contributor
Member Since: Dec 1999
Location: Anthony TX
Posts: 32,736
Received 2,180 Likes
on
1,583 Posts
CI 6,7,8,9,11 Vet
St. Jude Donor '08
Another update. Checked the ignition fuse and both injector fuses (for ***** and giggles) after not driving since last saturday. KOEO WITHOUT starting the car prior - I had slightly less than battery voltage on both sides of those fuses. Also pulled the relay to make sure its clicking.
Here are some more interesting facts, however. Checked batt voltage since I know this can cause many issues. It was only at about 12.05 volts or so. I'm not having any other strange problems with the car.
Even MORE interesting... after all that I tried to start it. It cranked for maybe a second and fired right up the first time. Talk about WEIRD. So we're definitely not looking at fuel pressure now - It started like that after having the KOEO condition for a few minutes while I was checking my voltages and pulled the relay (which yes, set a throttle pos sensor performance code, to be expected. Cleared that).
I tried my best to examine G107 as mentioned, but its pretty nice and buried. Without my tools from work I won't be able to do much to inspect it so I'll do that next time I bring it to work... which frankly could be a while lol (Parking lot is a disaster... very scary).
So I may be doing a battery soon - or at least getting a trickle charger or something.
Here are some more interesting facts, however. Checked batt voltage since I know this can cause many issues. It was only at about 12.05 volts or so. I'm not having any other strange problems with the car.
Even MORE interesting... after all that I tried to start it. It cranked for maybe a second and fired right up the first time. Talk about WEIRD. So we're definitely not looking at fuel pressure now - It started like that after having the KOEO condition for a few minutes while I was checking my voltages and pulled the relay (which yes, set a throttle pos sensor performance code, to be expected. Cleared that).
I tried my best to examine G107 as mentioned, but its pretty nice and buried. Without my tools from work I won't be able to do much to inspect it so I'll do that next time I bring it to work... which frankly could be a while lol (Parking lot is a disaster... very scary).
So I may be doing a battery soon - or at least getting a trickle charger or something.
You will NOT throw any DTCs because its the SAME as turning the engine OFF.
CHECK those voltage during the CRANK cycle because the ignition switch uses different switch pin positions between RUN and START/CRANK.
G-107.. Use a MIRROR and a flash light and you can easily inspect that ground connection visibly.
10-13-2017, 05:00 PM
#13
Racer
Thread Starter
I don't think you have a battery issue but, I cant rule out a voltage issue. If the ignition switch isn't outputting the proper FULL BATTERY VOLTAGE in the CRANK POSITION when its first turned to START/CRANK, some of the modules that depend on proper voltage wont come to life and support engine management. after those contacts get warm/hot, it most likely starts working correctly. When the contacts are cold, they most likely have high resistance and crappy output.
You will NOT throw any DTCs because its the SAME as turning the engine OFF.
CHECK those voltage during the CRANK cycle because the ignition switch uses different switch pin positions between RUN and START/CRANK.
G-107.. Use a MIRROR and a flash light and you can easily inspect that ground connection visibly.
You will NOT throw any DTCs because its the SAME as turning the engine OFF.
CHECK those voltage during the CRANK cycle because the ignition switch uses different switch pin positions between RUN and START/CRANK.
G-107.. Use a MIRROR and a flash light and you can easily inspect that ground connection visibly.
Thanks again!
10-13-2017, 07:27 PM
#14
Tech Contributor
Member Since: Dec 1999
Location: Anthony TX
Posts: 32,736
Received 2,180 Likes
on
1,583 Posts
CI 6,7,8,9,11 Vet
St. Jude Donor '08
You DO NOT have a different switch. The contacts inside the switch have different positions during RUN/CRANK and ACC
The little brass pins operate on a cam and open & close the contacts inside the switch for the different modes:
The little brass pins operate on a cam and open & close the contacts inside the switch for the different modes:
10-13-2017, 10:24 PM
#15
Racer
Thread Starter
Thats what I meant, sorry. But for testing it, all else would be normal if I pulled the starter relay, yes? Just so the starter doesn't have to sit and crank while I test, or, on the off chance, it doesn't actually start before I have time to check everything.
10-13-2017, 10:44 PM
#16
Burning Brakes
My vote is for Crank Position Sensor..
When Mine Failed, it would just die randomly and sometimes restart, sometimes not.
It took a long time before it set a code
When Mine Failed, it would just die randomly and sometimes restart, sometimes not.
It took a long time before it set a code
10-13-2017, 11:48 PM
#17
Racer
Thread Starter
