New Mantic clutch, hard to shift at high RPMs, failed rev test
04-30-2018, 10:19 PM
#1
Racer
Thread Starter
New Mantic clutch, hard to shift at high RPMs, failed rev test
For the first time in my life I decided to pay a shop to do an install for me and of course I’m experiencing an issue. Had a site sponsor install a Mantic ER2 single clutch kit, new OEM GM slave, master cylinder, pilot bearing and Tick speedbleeder in my ‘03 Z06.
Immediately upon picking up the car I noticed the clutch pedal engaged pretty close to the floor. My initial thought was maybe they should have shimmed the slave but I decided to keep my mouth shut to see if things would change once the clutch was broken in. Fast forward a month, I just got done breaking it in. Other than occasional clutch chatter and the low pedal, everything has been good. Now that it’s broken in and I’m driving it aggressively, I noticed a real issue. Its a real ***** to shift gears at high RPMs. I performed the rev test and sure enough the car creeps forward on level ground when in first gear, clutch to floor and RPMs above 5k. Clutch is definitely dragging. Smelled pretty bad after I did that. Makes sense to me that a dragging clutch would make high RPM shifting difficult.
Mantic users/installers:
1. Did you need to shim your Mantic single?
2. Are you using a new GM master with your Mantic single, if so, do you have this same issue?
3. Does your clutch pedal engage close to the floor like mine?
I’m thinking this is either a shim issue or the stock master just isn’t flowing enough fluid. I will be calling the shop this week. As for resolution, I’m thinking a fluid bleed would be a good first step. If that doesn’t work then perhaps an adjustable Tick master. If that doesn’t work then it sounds like a shimming issue. Am I on the right track here? Am I missing anything?
Thank you
Immediately upon picking up the car I noticed the clutch pedal engaged pretty close to the floor. My initial thought was maybe they should have shimmed the slave but I decided to keep my mouth shut to see if things would change once the clutch was broken in. Fast forward a month, I just got done breaking it in. Other than occasional clutch chatter and the low pedal, everything has been good. Now that it’s broken in and I’m driving it aggressively, I noticed a real issue. Its a real ***** to shift gears at high RPMs. I performed the rev test and sure enough the car creeps forward on level ground when in first gear, clutch to floor and RPMs above 5k. Clutch is definitely dragging. Smelled pretty bad after I did that. Makes sense to me that a dragging clutch would make high RPM shifting difficult.
Mantic users/installers:
1. Did you need to shim your Mantic single?
2. Are you using a new GM master with your Mantic single, if so, do you have this same issue?
3. Does your clutch pedal engage close to the floor like mine?
I’m thinking this is either a shim issue or the stock master just isn’t flowing enough fluid. I will be calling the shop this week. As for resolution, I’m thinking a fluid bleed would be a good first step. If that doesn’t work then perhaps an adjustable Tick master. If that doesn’t work then it sounds like a shimming issue. Am I on the right track here? Am I missing anything?
Thank you
Last edited by wrkdWS6; 05-01-2018 at 10:11 AM.
05-01-2018, 10:57 AM
#2
Former Vendor
For the first time in my life I decided to pay a shop to do an install for me and of course I’m experiencing an issue. Had a site sponsor install a Mantic ER2 single clutch kit, new OEM GM slave, master cylinder, pilot bearing and Tick speedbleeder in my ‘03 Z06.
Immediately upon picking up the car I noticed the clutch pedal engaged pretty close to the floor. My initial thought was maybe they should have shimmed the slave but I decided to keep my mouth shut to see if things would change once the clutch was broken in. Fast forward a month, I just got done breaking it in. Other than occasional clutch chatter and the low pedal, everything has been good. Now that it’s broken in and I’m driving it aggressively, I noticed a real issue. Its a real ***** to shift gears at high RPMs. I performed the rev test and sure enough the car creeps forward on level ground when in first gear, clutch to floor and RPMs above 5k. Clutch is definitely dragging. Smelled pretty bad after I did that. Makes sense to me that a dragging clutch would make high RPM shifting difficult.
Mantic users/installers:
1. Did you need to shim your Mantic single?
2. Are you using a new GM master with your Mantic single, if so, do you have this same issue?
3. Does your clutch pedal engage close to the floor like mine?
I’m thinking this is either a shim issue or the stock master just isn’t flowing enough fluid. I will be calling the shop this week. As for resolution, I’m thinking a fluid bleed would be a good first step. If that doesn’t work then perhaps an adjustable Tick master. If that doesn’t work then it sounds like a shimming issue. Am I on the right track here? Am I missing anything?
Thank you
Immediately upon picking up the car I noticed the clutch pedal engaged pretty close to the floor. My initial thought was maybe they should have shimmed the slave but I decided to keep my mouth shut to see if things would change once the clutch was broken in. Fast forward a month, I just got done breaking it in. Other than occasional clutch chatter and the low pedal, everything has been good. Now that it’s broken in and I’m driving it aggressively, I noticed a real issue. Its a real ***** to shift gears at high RPMs. I performed the rev test and sure enough the car creeps forward on level ground when in first gear, clutch to floor and RPMs above 5k. Clutch is definitely dragging. Smelled pretty bad after I did that. Makes sense to me that a dragging clutch would make high RPM shifting difficult.
Mantic users/installers:
1. Did you need to shim your Mantic single?
2. Are you using a new GM master with your Mantic single, if so, do you have this same issue?
3. Does your clutch pedal engage close to the floor like mine?
I’m thinking this is either a shim issue or the stock master just isn’t flowing enough fluid. I will be calling the shop this week. As for resolution, I’m thinking a fluid bleed would be a good first step. If that doesn’t work then perhaps an adjustable Tick master. If that doesn’t work then it sounds like a shimming issue. Am I on the right track here? Am I missing anything?
Thank you
05-01-2018, 11:38 AM
#3
Supporting Vendor
Member Since: Dec 2016
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I feel your pain. I paid someone ONCE in my life...only ONCE...went to most reputable and internet approved guy within a fair distance (350 miles) to do a supercharger/clutch install on my Z due to time conflicts and moving my shop, that particular summer. Never again.
Having owned 3 shops and built cars spanning many years, guys like me aren't cut out to have someone else build they're car unless it's LG or one of the absolute best that you know, without question, you can trust entirely to do the job right. I can own my own mistake and fix it, but if I pay and have to own that one...I won't ever heal from that
Having owned 3 shops and built cars spanning many years, guys like me aren't cut out to have someone else build they're car unless it's LG or one of the absolute best that you know, without question, you can trust entirely to do the job right. I can own my own mistake and fix it, but if I pay and have to own that one...I won't ever heal from that
05-01-2018, 11:55 AM
#4
Racer
Thread Starter
I feel your pain. I paid someone ONCE in my life...only ONCE...went to most reputable and internet approved guy within a fair distance (350 miles) to do a supercharger/clutch install on my Z due to time conflicts and moving my shop, that particular summer. Never again.
Having owned 3 shops and built cars spanning many years, guys like me aren't cut out to have someone else build they're car unless it's LG or one of the absolute best that you know, without question, you can trust entirely to do the job right. I can own my own mistake and fix it, but if I pay and have to own that one...I won't ever heal from that
Having owned 3 shops and built cars spanning many years, guys like me aren't cut out to have someone else build they're car unless it's LG or one of the absolute best that you know, without question, you can trust entirely to do the job right. I can own my own mistake and fix it, but if I pay and have to own that one...I won't ever heal from that
I called the shop today, they want me to bring the car back and they will tear it down and see what's going on. That's all I can ask for right now.
05-05-2018, 04:20 PM
#5
Racer
Thread Starter
I also want to add...the car is occasionally making a squealing noise when accelerating from a light/stop sign etc. in 1st gear. It is most noticeable with the more gas I give it. There is no noises present under any other circumstances.
I wonder if it's glazed over from whatever issue I am having plus from all of the stop and go city driving I've been doing breaking the clutch in.
Please share any thoughts you may have.
Edit: Here’s a video of the sound. I am starting out in 2nd gear going up a slight incline on purpose to make the noise as the more the clutch is slipped the louder and more frequently the noise appears.
I’ve called Mantic USA twice and both times left a VM and so far nothing. This clutch swap has been annoying to say the least.
I wonder if it's glazed over from whatever issue I am having plus from all of the stop and go city driving I've been doing breaking the clutch in.
Please share any thoughts you may have.
Edit: Here’s a video of the sound. I am starting out in 2nd gear going up a slight incline on purpose to make the noise as the more the clutch is slipped the louder and more frequently the noise appears.
I’ve called Mantic USA twice and both times left a VM and so far nothing. This clutch swap has been annoying to say the least.
Last edited by wrkdWS6; 05-05-2018 at 08:57 PM.
05-08-2018, 10:37 PM
#7
Who did you buy the clutch from? Have they had anything to say about the way it drags?
Mantic has a lot of happy customers so I wonder if you got a bad one or if something went wrong during the install.
Mantic has a lot of happy customers so I wonder if you got a bad one or if something went wrong during the install.
05-08-2018, 11:23 PM
#8
Racer
Thread Starter
I bought the clutch based upon all of the overwhelmingly positive reviews and my own experiences driving a Mantic equipped car. I agree there's an install and/or product issue here.
05-09-2018, 02:12 PM
#9
Former Vendor
All this said, if you want to keep the clutch in the car you're going to have to tear it back down and inspect it. I would start with the disc, ensure that it is flat and not "bowl" shaped. If that checks out I would measure the setup for a shim, I would set the gap at .100" and go from there. Before reassembling the entire car check the release of the clutch with just the torque tube bolted in and a friend inside the car depressing the pedal - this can save you a lot of time.
In the end it's a bit surprising that they are not responding to you, but that doesn't mean you can't make it right.
If you have any further questions on this just give me a shout at Steve@MonsterClutches.com - even though it's clearly not one of mine I don't mind helping/supporting this community.
05-09-2018, 02:26 PM
#10
Racer
Thread Starter
The noise you hear in that video is coming from the ceramic clutch material they're using on the disc, it's glazed. The setup they use is a variation of what we did many years ago, because of that glazing noise, and the fact that no matter what you will get chatter with a dual friction setup, we stopped doing that and went to a custom full Kevlar mix.
All this said, if you want to keep the clutch in the car you're going to have to tear it back down and inspect it. I would start with the disc, ensure that it is flat and not "bowl" shaped. If that checks out I would measure the setup for a shim, I would set the gap at .100" and go from there. Before reassembling the entire car check the release of the clutch with just the torque tube bolted in and a friend inside the car depressing the pedal - this can save you a lot of time.
In the end it's a bit surprising that they are not responding to you, but that doesn't mean you can't make it right.
If you have any further questions on this just give me a shout at Steve@MonsterClutches.com - even though it's clearly not one of mine I don't mind helping/supporting this community.
All this said, if you want to keep the clutch in the car you're going to have to tear it back down and inspect it. I would start with the disc, ensure that it is flat and not "bowl" shaped. If that checks out I would measure the setup for a shim, I would set the gap at .100" and go from there. Before reassembling the entire car check the release of the clutch with just the torque tube bolted in and a friend inside the car depressing the pedal - this can save you a lot of time.
In the end it's a bit surprising that they are not responding to you, but that doesn't mean you can't make it right.
If you have any further questions on this just give me a shout at Steve@MonsterClutches.com - even though it's clearly not one of mine I don't mind helping/supporting this community.
Last edited by wrkdWS6; 05-09-2018 at 02:28 PM.
05-09-2018, 03:10 PM
#11
Former Vendor
Thank you very much! Very helpful information there. The shop that did the work is going to start with a bleed and then take it from there. Since it appears the disk is glazed, would beating on the car some perhaps knock the glaze off? Just trying to figure out how I can get rid of the glazing noise unless it's just always going to be there now. My buddies Mantic Er2 never made the noise so I really hope I can shake it. I can email you this question since that's what you suggested but if you happen to read this I think your response would be helpful for future readers.
That said, the disengagement issue is going to force you to drive the car in a way that will lend to glazing the friction, not to mention the lack of release will also glaze the friction since it's not pulling completely away from the mating surfaces.
It is a hit-and-miss thing overall, those that will slip their clutches a bit more will get glaze 100% of the time, those that don't won't ever hear it. If you're ever stuck in traffic a lot you're going to glaze the friction, if you live on a hill, have a big cam and light flywheel, etc. - all of this can lead to glazing.
Keep me/us posted on this brother!
05-09-2018, 03:35 PM
#12
Racer
Thread Starter
That is the only way to get rid of the glaze on friction material without pulling it out and media blasting it.
That said, the disengagement issue is going to force you to drive the car in a way that will lend to glazing the friction, not to mention the lack of release will also glaze the friction since it's not pulling completely away from the mating surfaces.
It is a hit-and-miss thing overall, those that will slip their clutches a bit more will get glaze 100% of the time, those that don't won't ever hear it. If you're ever stuck in traffic a lot you're going to glaze the friction, if you live on a hill, have a big cam and light flywheel, etc. - all of this can lead to glazing.
Keep me/us posted on this brother!
That said, the disengagement issue is going to force you to drive the car in a way that will lend to glazing the friction, not to mention the lack of release will also glaze the friction since it's not pulling completely away from the mating surfaces.
It is a hit-and-miss thing overall, those that will slip their clutches a bit more will get glaze 100% of the time, those that don't won't ever hear it. If you're ever stuck in traffic a lot you're going to glaze the friction, if you live on a hill, have a big cam and light flywheel, etc. - all of this can lead to glazing.
Keep me/us posted on this brother!
05-21-2018, 08:13 PM
#14
Racer
Thread Starter
Update: I finally got in contact with Mantic. Mantic USA is flat out unresponsive but I was finally able to get product support by calling Mantic Australia. Just an FYI for anyone who may need to contact them in the future.
Another FYI for any potential Mantic ER2 buyers...they confirmed that the Mantic ER2 single disk kit is designed for use with the stock OEM slave and master cylinders and was designed so a shim would not be needed. I found an old thread where ECS mentioned the same (and they have installed tons of Mantics) so that's good to know.
Mantic thinks my clutch is dragging either due to a bent disk from improper install or due to air in the clutch fluid. They said a good way to test for a bent disk is to perform the rev test with the rear wheels off the ground. If the wheels move at almost all RPMs (and not just at high RPMs) it's likely a bent disk. They think my pilot bearing is causing the squealing but I'm leaning towards glazed disk.
The shop has my car so hopefully we will know for sure in the near future. I won't be picking the car up until it's fixed right because no matter what the culprit is this appears to be install related.
Another FYI for any potential Mantic ER2 buyers...they confirmed that the Mantic ER2 single disk kit is designed for use with the stock OEM slave and master cylinders and was designed so a shim would not be needed. I found an old thread where ECS mentioned the same (and they have installed tons of Mantics) so that's good to know.
Mantic thinks my clutch is dragging either due to a bent disk from improper install or due to air in the clutch fluid. They said a good way to test for a bent disk is to perform the rev test with the rear wheels off the ground. If the wheels move at almost all RPMs (and not just at high RPMs) it's likely a bent disk. They think my pilot bearing is causing the squealing but I'm leaning towards glazed disk.
The shop has my car so hopefully we will know for sure in the near future. I won't be picking the car up until it's fixed right because no matter what the culprit is this appears to be install related.
Last edited by wrkdWS6; 05-21-2018 at 08:16 PM.
05-21-2018, 08:17 PM
#15
Race Director
Member Since: Dec 2010
Location: Atlanta, GA
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2020 Corvette of the Year Finalist (performance mods)
C5 of Year Winner (performance mods) 2019
well that sucks
... is the shop going to cover the labor if it was their fault or if applicable is mantic going to warranty the faulty part?
... is the shop going to cover the labor if it was their fault or if applicable is mantic going to warranty the faulty part?
05-22-2018, 09:42 AM
#16
Racer
Thread Starter
Shop got back to me today.
They re-bled the clutch. They mentioned that the noise is still present and is coming from the bellhousing and is more or less to be expected with a Mantic.
To remedy the high shift effort they are stating I may need a Tick master even though the Mantic was designed for use with the stock master. Reason being "the volume and pressure cannot be made up even if the design is intended for oem parts".
They will happily tear the car down and take a video or do it with me present but I am on the hook for labor if everything checks out. If an install issue is discovered they will cover it no questions asked.
Well this certainly is putting me between a rock and a hard place. I wish I had just done the install myself. I'm not happy one bit.
They re-bled the clutch. They mentioned that the noise is still present and is coming from the bellhousing and is more or less to be expected with a Mantic.
To remedy the high shift effort they are stating I may need a Tick master even though the Mantic was designed for use with the stock master. Reason being "the volume and pressure cannot be made up even if the design is intended for oem parts".
They will happily tear the car down and take a video or do it with me present but I am on the hook for labor if everything checks out. If an install issue is discovered they will cover it no questions asked.
Well this certainly is putting me between a rock and a hard place. I wish I had just done the install myself. I'm not happy one bit.
Last edited by wrkdWS6; 05-22-2018 at 10:07 AM.
05-29-2018, 09:45 AM
#17
Premium Supporting Vendor
Member Since: Oct 2004
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If you dropped your car off for a clutch and did not "bring your own steak to the restaurant", then you should not be on the hook for any future repair of that install IMHO. Other than that there is some serious pandering for business in this thread.
PM me if we can help.
PM me if we can help.
__________________
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ECS Supercharger Kits / Mantic Clutches
www.EastCoastSupercharging.com
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C5/C6 and C7 Supercharging Specialist
ECS Supercharger Kits / Mantic Clutches
www.EastCoastSupercharging.com
Facebook Page
ECS YouTube Channel
05-29-2018, 09:57 AM
#18
Former Vendor
05-29-2018, 10:14 AM
#19
Racer
Thread Starter
I bought the clutch and all associated parts on my own and supplied them to the shop for install. In hindsight, I probably should have just bought everything through the shop that way parts and labor would both be warrantied.
I picked up a Tick adjustable master, gonna toss it in this weekend. Fingers crossed that it fixes the disengagement issue.
Also to note, I performed the rev test again but this time with the car in the air. The rear wheels began moving once I hit 4000RPM.
I picked up a Tick adjustable master, gonna toss it in this weekend. Fingers crossed that it fixes the disengagement issue.
Also to note, I performed the rev test again but this time with the car in the air. The rear wheels began moving once I hit 4000RPM.
Last edited by wrkdWS6; 05-29-2018 at 10:23 AM.
06-09-2018, 07:25 PM
#20
Racer
Thread Starter
Good and bad news.
Good news is that I installed a Tick master cylinder and it resolved the clutch disengagement issues. Car passes the rev test and shifts great at high RPMs. I definitely recommend it.
Bad news is that my car still squeals when taking off in 1st gear. Not every time but I can make it happen every time if I use the clutch and gas just right. I beat on the car hard today in an attempt to knock off the glaze (assuming that’s what’s causing the noise) but no luck. Any ideas there?
Good news is that I installed a Tick master cylinder and it resolved the clutch disengagement issues. Car passes the rev test and shifts great at high RPMs. I definitely recommend it.
Bad news is that my car still squeals when taking off in 1st gear. Not every time but I can make it happen every time if I use the clutch and gas just right. I beat on the car hard today in an attempt to knock off the glaze (assuming that’s what’s causing the noise) but no luck. Any ideas there?
Last edited by wrkdWS6; 06-09-2018 at 07:26 PM.