Z06 Engine Ruined by Dealer?
11-01-2018, 11:18 AM
#21
Safety Car
This is the way I would do it. Great idea. And you don't want to put a new engine in if the problem is still there.
11-02-2018, 07:32 PM
#22
Burning Brakes
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St. Jude Donor '06
Seems to be very clear from my perspective. The detail shop power washed the engine. Water was forced into places it normally wouldn't/shouldn't go. It specifically sounds like water in the plugs, coils, or the PCM (as evident by the misfire codes). This caused the injectors to stick open and dump raw fuel into the exhaust. The CAT couldnt overcome this much raw fuel and was smoking white (which is the normal color for large quantities of un-burned hydrocarbons). Some have mentioned the smoke color should be black but that isnt the case in an event where theres ZERO combustion in that specific cylinder. Rich mixture would cause black. But zero combustion would be white.
The clowns at the dealership only made it worse by trying to crank the engine with puddled fuel in the cylinders. Only thing they should have done was remove the spark plugs on the effected cylinders and then slowly turn it over to get the fuel out...
Lastly, if there was enough force to break the starter ear off the block, i can only imagine the amount of force it put into the con rod(s) on those cylinders. My guess is one or more bent rods. Bent rods = rebuild.
Depending on the value of the vehicle, it may be worth it to install the starter bridge, get the car running, then immediately trade the damn thing into the dealer for something else....
incidentally, injectors are commonly referred to as "valves" or "needles" or "needle valves"...
The clowns at the dealership only made it worse by trying to crank the engine with puddled fuel in the cylinders. Only thing they should have done was remove the spark plugs on the effected cylinders and then slowly turn it over to get the fuel out...
Lastly, if there was enough force to break the starter ear off the block, i can only imagine the amount of force it put into the con rod(s) on those cylinders. My guess is one or more bent rods. Bent rods = rebuild.
Depending on the value of the vehicle, it may be worth it to install the starter bridge, get the car running, then immediately trade the damn thing into the dealer for something else....
incidentally, injectors are commonly referred to as "valves" or "needles" or "needle valves"...
Last edited by Stealthy4; 11-02-2018 at 07:37 PM.
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El original (11-11-2018)
11-05-2018, 03:06 PM
#23
11-05-2018, 04:27 PM
#24
Burning Brakes
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St. Jude Donor '06
Also the injectors are essentially electronic solenoid valves...so yes, a bad electrical signal could cause the injector to stay open or closed..could be wiring, the injectors themselves, pcm, plugs, wires, coils....anythign that would cause an actual misfire which would then result in raw fuel dumping into the exhaust....the more raw fuel dumped, the more white smoke youll get...
Last edited by Stealthy4; 11-05-2018 at 04:30 PM.
11-05-2018, 04:29 PM
#25
Google images: gasoline injector cross section...i bet most of the pictures you see will refer to a "needle valve"....I'd say 95% of the time its called a needle valve the other 5% call it a pintle or pintle valve. You'll also here "sticky needle", "sticky valve", etc. when speaking about an injector thats either stuck open (or closed). This is probably most common in the industry (such as GM engineering and suppliers)...
11-05-2018, 04:45 PM
#26
Burning Brakes
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St. Jude Donor '06
call it whatever you want...i don't care....my point was that its clear to people in the industry what hes talking about. people in the industry (techs, engineers, suppliers) would call it a stuck needle or stuck valve...i know because i literally spent 10 year of my career engineering injectors...much of which was failure analysis....
Last edited by Stealthy4; 11-05-2018 at 04:46 PM.
11-05-2018, 04:53 PM
#27
call it whatever you want...i don't care....my point was that its clear to people in the industry what hes talking about. people in the industry (techs, engineers, suppliers) would call it a stuck needle or stuck valve...i know because i literally spent 10 year of my career engineering injectors...much of which was failure analysis....
11-05-2018, 05:27 PM
#28
Burning Brakes
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St. Jude Donor '06
i engineered injectors...which contain a needle valve or pintle...and the potential cause of over fueling (as proof by misfire and white smoke) is a sticky needle (among other possibilities i've listed)....and i repeat...people in the industry would never say a sticky injector. they would call it a sticky needle valve or stuck needle valve...further...the Mr.Dow was talking to a tech who would use this exact language and nomenclature...the tech does not care what you call it, or want it to be called....he calls it by what it is...a stuck needle valve...the tech was just being short when he says "stuck valve"...its clear the tech isnt talking about an intake or exhaust valve...
11-05-2018, 07:42 PM
#29
Racer
i engineered injectors...which contain a needle valve or pintle...and the potential cause of over fueling (as proof by misfire and white smoke) is a sticky needle (among other possibilities i've listed)....and i repeat...people in the industry would never say a sticky injector. they would call it a sticky needle valve or stuck needle valve...further...the Mr.Dow was talking to a tech who would use this exact language and nomenclature...the tech does not care what you call it, or want it to be called....he calls it by what it is...a stuck needle valve...the tech was just being short when he says "stuck valve"...its clear the tech isnt talking about an intake or exhaust valve...
Again, I'm not arguing, just pointing out that down on the service level when you're dealing directly with the customer, you have to be very careful with how you word things and be very specific. This is to prevent misunderstandings like the one exemplified in the written statement from the tech above. That has the potential to really blow back in his face if the right lawyer gets ahold of it.
11-05-2018, 09:31 PM
#30
Safety Car
Not really reading much replies, but .you can pick up a uses z06 engine for about 2500 around same miles. Or just a basic used z and build it.
Sorry to hear what happend to you
Sorry to hear what happend to you
11-07-2018, 05:00 PM
#31
Le Mans Master
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2023 C2 of the Year Finalist - Modified
2021 C2 of the Year Finalist - Modified
2016 C5 of Year Finalist
I am very sorry . If if were my car. I would check with my insurance agent for help. Maybe your insurance will pay for the repair. Since you are selling the car I would be reluctant to pump $7000 plus into a car you are selling. You will never get a return on the repair and
lose more money. If you were keeping the car have the repair done. It's not unusual to see corvette engines blow at 75k to 100k. I have seen them go much earlier. The LS engine is a good engine but there are a lot of variables that can shorten it's life.
Good luck.
lose more money. If you were keeping the car have the repair done. It's not unusual to see corvette engines blow at 75k to 100k. I have seen them go much earlier. The LS engine is a good engine but there are a lot of variables that can shorten it's life.
Good luck.
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11-08-2018, 12:24 AM
#32
Safety Car
Sad story. Sorry this happened to you.
Horrible dealership. They are blowing smoke up your you know what.
The fuel pump primes for two seconds at key on. There is no way a stuck injector would fill a cylinder to the point of hydro lock in two seconds.
Second, show me a C5 that’s ever been driven in the rain that doesn’t have corrosion on the ECU case. It’s mounted behind the pass side front tire. They get wet in the rain. Shoot, trucks mount them under the hood. They come out horribly corroded, full of mud etc and work fine.
With it mounted behind the front tire, the detail shop would have had to removed the inner fender and blasted it with water. Still wouldn’t phase it.
Best of luck.
Ron
Horrible dealership. They are blowing smoke up your you know what.
The fuel pump primes for two seconds at key on. There is no way a stuck injector would fill a cylinder to the point of hydro lock in two seconds.
Second, show me a C5 that’s ever been driven in the rain that doesn’t have corrosion on the ECU case. It’s mounted behind the pass side front tire. They get wet in the rain. Shoot, trucks mount them under the hood. They come out horribly corroded, full of mud etc and work fine.
With it mounted behind the front tire, the detail shop would have had to removed the inner fender and blasted it with water. Still wouldn’t phase it.
Best of luck.
Ron
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11-11-2018, 10:44 PM
#33
Instructor
I would take the emotion out of the situation and cut my losses.
Detailer probably has some fault here.
Dealer probably has some fault here.
Hiring an attorney to pursue fault will cost more than a decent used engine & installation.
The problem that caused the hydrolock may not be able to be proven or reproduced.
Hydrolock is catastrophic and there is definately internal damage to the engine.
Find a reputable shop to replace the engine and diagnose whatever else is going on.
Then decide to sell or keep the C5.
Detailer probably has some fault here.
Dealer probably has some fault here.
Hiring an attorney to pursue fault will cost more than a decent used engine & installation.
The problem that caused the hydrolock may not be able to be proven or reproduced.
Hydrolock is catastrophic and there is definately internal damage to the engine.
Find a reputable shop to replace the engine and diagnose whatever else is going on.
Then decide to sell or keep the C5.
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11-12-2018, 02:13 AM
#35
Racer
Sorry about your bad situation,
When I first started our auto body shop in 1986, a customer that had a good car collection had us paint a Ferrari GTO, I think the car was from the 1960's or 1970's. Before having the car towed back by the customer, our detailer thought he'd do 'a little extra' for the customer and steam clean the engine and engine compartment. When they started the engine at a later date, they didn't realize that the engine had taken in some water and had to be torn apart and gone through again!
The owner said that the air cleaner cover was like an upside down box that was open at the bottom and let all this water through the intake manifold and into the engine. Luckily our insurance covered the repairs and I heard it was around $7000 and that was back in the late '80's
Even covering the distributor when steam cleaning engines, condensation would make our cars not start until the ignition parts were dried out!
No more steam cleaning or pressure washing of engines!....lesson learned!.
Since we backed up our mistake, that owner still had us paint a few real AC Cobras and recommended us to his friend that also had a real mid '60's GT40!
When I first started our auto body shop in 1986, a customer that had a good car collection had us paint a Ferrari GTO, I think the car was from the 1960's or 1970's. Before having the car towed back by the customer, our detailer thought he'd do 'a little extra' for the customer and steam clean the engine and engine compartment. When they started the engine at a later date, they didn't realize that the engine had taken in some water and had to be torn apart and gone through again!
The owner said that the air cleaner cover was like an upside down box that was open at the bottom and let all this water through the intake manifold and into the engine. Luckily our insurance covered the repairs and I heard it was around $7000 and that was back in the late '80's
Even covering the distributor when steam cleaning engines, condensation would make our cars not start until the ignition parts were dried out!
No more steam cleaning or pressure washing of engines!....lesson learned!.
Since we backed up our mistake, that owner still had us paint a few real AC Cobras and recommended us to his friend that also had a real mid '60's GT40!
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11-12-2018, 08:07 AM
#36
Team Owner
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St. Jude Donor '05
Take The $ put an LS3 in surprised you got a response through BBB they dont really have any power to enforce.
x2 on washing....did that once very carefully, still went into limp mode right away for 2 days, had problems with random codes for awhile.
Wipe em down that is it.
x2 on washing....did that once very carefully, still went into limp mode right away for 2 days, had problems with random codes for awhile.
Wipe em down that is it.
11-12-2018, 09:58 PM
#37
Scratches head .... why do you call it the stealership, Daddy?
Maybe someone else said something similar, but I find it curious that you have owned a C5 for 15 years and only joined the forum in October.
Good luck with your dealings with the "stealership" (that is what some of us call them around here).
Good luck with your dealings with the "stealership" (that is what some of us call them around here).
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Thomas A. Dow (11-13-2018)
11-13-2018, 05:34 PM
#38
Thank you. Would you happen to know, if I replace the current engine, what kind of value the one with the broken starter / block might have i.e., sell to someone for parts or to fix?
11-14-2018, 11:02 AM
#39
IMO that Z06 engine is a lot more valuable than my plain vanilla LS1. For example, you have:
- Higher compression ratio
- sodium filled valves (which are not made any longer)
- better cylinder heads
- i am sure I am missing something.
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Thomas A. Dow (11-16-2018)
11-14-2018, 04:42 PM
#40
Black smoke typically means a rich burn (lean burns don't cause anything weird out of the tailpipe), white (slightly blueish) smoke means oil burning, and white water vapor either means you're getting water into the combustion chamber, or you have NO-burn condition in a cylinder making your cats work overtime as you dump a bunch of raw fuel into the exhaust that gets turned into steam. A lot of people confuse water vapor and oil smoke though.
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Ron Sjostrom (11-14-2018)