Z06 Engine Ruined by Dealer?
10-30-2018, 09:34 AM
#1
Z06 Engine Ruined by Dealer?
I bought a 2002 Z06 in 2003 and have had it ever since. Have never had a mechanical issue. Thursday before this last Labor Day I took it to have the engine cleaned as I was going to sell it and everyone wanted to see pics of under the hood. The car was performing normally on the way to dropping it off at a car detailer. Approximately 1.5 hours later, I picked up the Corvette. The detailer seemed nervous upon seeing me, and almost immediately the manager came from the check out area far away to talk to me. He was all smiles and showed me how clean the engine was, and then matter of factly mentioned that I might want to get the engine looked at at some point as a little smoke was coming from the tailpipes. My daughter followed me on the way to drop off the car and take me back home. She confirms there was no smoke coming from the tailpipes on the way there. I didn’t think much of it, but when I drove away about a ¼ mile down the street white smoke started pouring out the back, and the motor seemed to be struggling as if not firing on all cylinders. It got worse the closer I got to home. I called the Car Wash. They said they didn’t notice any lines cut and the smoke wasn’t caused by water / cleaning solution getting into the engine. I decided I needed a professional mechanic to determine what caused the dramatic change in engine performance. That afternoon I called my local Chevrolet store and spoke with a service advisor. I told him the story of what happened at the car wash in detail, and that white smoke was coming out the back, that the engine was running rough and the engine and oil lights came on.
Friday before Labor Day
I called the next day, Friday, to confirm I would be having the car brought to the dealer to see what’s wrong with the engine, and what caused the dramatic change after the car wash. I had been advised (by the tow truck operator who had owned a Z06 from the same year) to start the car again in the morning to see if the engine was still emitting smoke as it might have been cleaning solution that could have burned off. I did and it still smoked after less than a minute and the smoke appeared to get worse the longer the engine ran. So I turned it off and arranged for a towing service to pick it up that same morning. The car ran and I had to drive it across the street to a parking lot so it could be driven on to the flatbed tow truck. I later spoke to the Chevrolet store and was told they might not get to it until after the Labor Day weekend, but the mechanic would try. Later that day I called again to check the status and was told he couldn’t get to it until Tuesday. In the course of the conversation I retold the story and emphasized the importance of determining if the engine detailing caused cleaning solution to get inside the engine. On Tuesday I got a call and was told the engine was running terribly and the computer showed multiple random misfires at plugs, coils and injectors. He said they pulled the plugs and cylinder 7 had a pool of gas. I was told they then started the engine again (the dealer drove it into the shop from the parking lot) and the starter broke off the engine block, that something locked up. I was told matter-of-factly that they found a used replacement engine with 75,000 miles I could get for $10,000 dollars. No one said, sorry. I was told in order to pick it up / take it away, I would need to pay $127.95 for a one hour diagnosis, which I paid over the phone, but I have not picked up the car because I’m not sure if that could hurt my case.
On Thursday I decided to pay a visit to the dealer. I saw my Corvette parked across from the service garages. I entered the service department and asked to see the mechanic who worked on the Corvette. I also asked the service department for a detailed explanation in writing and was given a computer print out briefly stating “complaint,” “cause,” and “correction,” saying specifically "Customer states had vet detailed at another store and now car is smoking while driving. Check for leaks and advise #7 fuel injector stuck open # 7 cylinder fuel filled and hydro locked. Broke starter ear off block and long starter bolt - recommend replacing engine." The description for each is brief, and I was told that’s all they provide. No explanation, as to why my engine was destroyed in the process of trying to determine what was wrong and fix it, was given.
The mechanic told me he scanned the codes after looking under the lower oil pan and left side near differential and struts where engine leaks a little, but would not cause smoke. He mentioned PO 300 and 200 codes, that cylinder 2 and 7 were misfiring. He said the injector could have been stuck open, if fuel set a long time, that there is no way to see if the injector’s full of fuel. Possibly of note is that he said he started the car to see where the smoke was coming from. I said that I made it very clear that it was coming form the tail pipes. Is this fact relevant to how he went about the diagnosis work? Would he have done things differently to avoid the hydro lock that destroyed the engine? He said he would have, but I can’t prove it, or that it would have avoided his breaking the starter off the engine block and ruining the engine. After the meeting, I told the head of the dealership the story and how no one had said sorry and no detailed explanation as to how my engine could have been made worse and destroyed was given. Mike connected me with the service manager. Later that day she phoned me and I told her the story. She suggested we meet with the technician and shop forman. I told her, perhaps of note, that the mechanic wasn’t fully briefed by the technician, as the mechanic told me he didn’t know smoke was coming out the tailpipes, that he said he wouldn’t have started the car to see where the smoke was coming from, and that he suggested he would have done the diagnosis differently had he known where the smoke was coming from in the context of the engine detailing.
Meeting with Service Team (4 on 1)
In the meeting I asked to be walked thru the process of what happened from their perspective, why hydrolock was not considered and precautions taken given the engine detailing / powerwashing. I subsequently learned driving thru puddles at speed is the biggest cause of hydrolock. I asked if they’d known smoke was coming out the back, would anything have been done differently, and I communicated that it didn’t seem normal to come in with an engine issues and have the engine destroyed. They agreed to look at everything again, and said replacing the engine from the source they identified was just one option, that they could look at others, too. They called back approximately 5-6 days later and said they were able to get to the PCM module and it showed corrosion on the cover. She said it could cause the system to tell the engine to leave the valve open. She said she’s assessing, it’s not 100%, but the corrosion combined with the power washing could have pushed the PCM over the edge. I asked them to send me the pictures and explain everything in writing. Days went by without receiving the email, so on Monday, 9/25 I filed a complaint with Chevrolet Customer Care. I reported I believed the dealer broke my engine and was slow walking and obfuscating to avoid responsibility. I gave the VIN and miles (approx. 71,000) to start the case. I noted to the customer care representative that the dealer wouldn’t explain the process that led to the ruined engine in writing. I was told by customer care someone would call me back today or tomorrow. Michelle, a senior advisor from Chevrolet Customer Care called the next day. Michelle said she spoke with the dealer and they said they didn’t break anything. The dealer rep was quoted as saying car detailing left water in the engine. Michelle agreed to call her back to see who broke the engine ie., broke the starter off the block. This same day Chevrolet Customer Care called the dealer I received an email from the dealer showing two pics of the underside which were grainy and didn't tell me anything. There was no explanation. I felt the response was inadequate and determined there was no use trying to work with the dealer anymore. I told Michelle / Customer Care I felt that a destroyed Corvette Z06 engine demands a written explanation of what exactly happened and why at a minimum, and that the dealer is meant to be the expert and they shouldn’t make things worse and completlely destroy an engine. Michelle called again on Monday, October 1st. She said she spoke with the dealership and they said they didn’t break anything, that it was water in the engine and they made me aware. I said that person she spoke to wasn’t involved and she should be speaking to the service manager. Michelle said she’d call the service manager and, if appropriate, someone higher up. On Friday Michelle called to say she’s still having the same outcome with the dealer, and that I must resolve it with them, or go to the Better Business Bureau, if they won’t take responsibility. She said she’d close my case as dealer dissatisfied.
BBB
I filed a complaint with the Better Business Bureau, told my story and asked that the dealer restore engine to its previous state, and fix cause of smoke issue. Already long story short, on 10/19 the service manager agreed to explain in writing the process that was followed and why their breaking the starter off the block (ruining the engine) couldn't have been avoided. 10/22 she called back and said they wouldn't provide a written explanation. She said they're trying to work with me and would make an (kind of settlement) offer (even though they did everything by the book trust me). Yesterday (10/29) they offered to secure and install a used Z06 engine with about 75,000 miles vs the ruined one with about 73,000 miles for $6,860. Plus they recommended a new engine control module for $450 installed, but they could probably work with me on that cost. They said judging by the look of the module's cover on the outside, a faulty module is probably why two of the cylinders were filled with gas causing the hydro lock that ruined the engine when the mechanic restarted the car after doing diagnostics (the engine ran when delivered to the dealer). So I'm struggling with whether i should accept the $6,860 deal when, according to their own assessment, I would have paid $450 to fix the engine.
Then, to complicated matters even more, later yesterday afternoon, I got a response from the BBB where the dealer explained in writing (kind of) what happened, which they refused to do for me the customer.
(BBB) MESSAGE FROM BUSINESS:
The Vehicle came to us with on flatbed not operational with a customer complaint of vehicle smoking, service light on dash and customer stating the vehicle just came from another shop and he believed there was water damage in the engine area. One of our Certified Technicians started the vehicle and drove it the service area at that time Vehicle was not smoking and ran well however the vehicle did have service lights on the dash the vehicle ran for 10 minuets and was shoot off no running issues at that point. Our technician then plugged the vehicle in to our computer system to read the vehicle service codes and started the vehicle once again this was when the engine kicked and broke the starter and the fly wheel. This all was caused by an ECM that directed the fuel system to add addition gas into the motor causing fuel to fill up the cylinder head and combust at a larger level then normal. We completed all diagnosis's in a proper manner and follow our processes to the T.
What should I do? Appreciate any insights as to whether good process was followed and whether ruining the engine could have been / should have been avoided. Thanks in advance for reading.
Friday before Labor Day
I called the next day, Friday, to confirm I would be having the car brought to the dealer to see what’s wrong with the engine, and what caused the dramatic change after the car wash. I had been advised (by the tow truck operator who had owned a Z06 from the same year) to start the car again in the morning to see if the engine was still emitting smoke as it might have been cleaning solution that could have burned off. I did and it still smoked after less than a minute and the smoke appeared to get worse the longer the engine ran. So I turned it off and arranged for a towing service to pick it up that same morning. The car ran and I had to drive it across the street to a parking lot so it could be driven on to the flatbed tow truck. I later spoke to the Chevrolet store and was told they might not get to it until after the Labor Day weekend, but the mechanic would try. Later that day I called again to check the status and was told he couldn’t get to it until Tuesday. In the course of the conversation I retold the story and emphasized the importance of determining if the engine detailing caused cleaning solution to get inside the engine. On Tuesday I got a call and was told the engine was running terribly and the computer showed multiple random misfires at plugs, coils and injectors. He said they pulled the plugs and cylinder 7 had a pool of gas. I was told they then started the engine again (the dealer drove it into the shop from the parking lot) and the starter broke off the engine block, that something locked up. I was told matter-of-factly that they found a used replacement engine with 75,000 miles I could get for $10,000 dollars. No one said, sorry. I was told in order to pick it up / take it away, I would need to pay $127.95 for a one hour diagnosis, which I paid over the phone, but I have not picked up the car because I’m not sure if that could hurt my case.
On Thursday I decided to pay a visit to the dealer. I saw my Corvette parked across from the service garages. I entered the service department and asked to see the mechanic who worked on the Corvette. I also asked the service department for a detailed explanation in writing and was given a computer print out briefly stating “complaint,” “cause,” and “correction,” saying specifically "Customer states had vet detailed at another store and now car is smoking while driving. Check for leaks and advise #7 fuel injector stuck open # 7 cylinder fuel filled and hydro locked. Broke starter ear off block and long starter bolt - recommend replacing engine." The description for each is brief, and I was told that’s all they provide. No explanation, as to why my engine was destroyed in the process of trying to determine what was wrong and fix it, was given.
The mechanic told me he scanned the codes after looking under the lower oil pan and left side near differential and struts where engine leaks a little, but would not cause smoke. He mentioned PO 300 and 200 codes, that cylinder 2 and 7 were misfiring. He said the injector could have been stuck open, if fuel set a long time, that there is no way to see if the injector’s full of fuel. Possibly of note is that he said he started the car to see where the smoke was coming from. I said that I made it very clear that it was coming form the tail pipes. Is this fact relevant to how he went about the diagnosis work? Would he have done things differently to avoid the hydro lock that destroyed the engine? He said he would have, but I can’t prove it, or that it would have avoided his breaking the starter off the engine block and ruining the engine. After the meeting, I told the head of the dealership the story and how no one had said sorry and no detailed explanation as to how my engine could have been made worse and destroyed was given. Mike connected me with the service manager. Later that day she phoned me and I told her the story. She suggested we meet with the technician and shop forman. I told her, perhaps of note, that the mechanic wasn’t fully briefed by the technician, as the mechanic told me he didn’t know smoke was coming out the tailpipes, that he said he wouldn’t have started the car to see where the smoke was coming from, and that he suggested he would have done the diagnosis differently had he known where the smoke was coming from in the context of the engine detailing.
Meeting with Service Team (4 on 1)
In the meeting I asked to be walked thru the process of what happened from their perspective, why hydrolock was not considered and precautions taken given the engine detailing / powerwashing. I subsequently learned driving thru puddles at speed is the biggest cause of hydrolock. I asked if they’d known smoke was coming out the back, would anything have been done differently, and I communicated that it didn’t seem normal to come in with an engine issues and have the engine destroyed. They agreed to look at everything again, and said replacing the engine from the source they identified was just one option, that they could look at others, too. They called back approximately 5-6 days later and said they were able to get to the PCM module and it showed corrosion on the cover. She said it could cause the system to tell the engine to leave the valve open. She said she’s assessing, it’s not 100%, but the corrosion combined with the power washing could have pushed the PCM over the edge. I asked them to send me the pictures and explain everything in writing. Days went by without receiving the email, so on Monday, 9/25 I filed a complaint with Chevrolet Customer Care. I reported I believed the dealer broke my engine and was slow walking and obfuscating to avoid responsibility. I gave the VIN and miles (approx. 71,000) to start the case. I noted to the customer care representative that the dealer wouldn’t explain the process that led to the ruined engine in writing. I was told by customer care someone would call me back today or tomorrow. Michelle, a senior advisor from Chevrolet Customer Care called the next day. Michelle said she spoke with the dealer and they said they didn’t break anything. The dealer rep was quoted as saying car detailing left water in the engine. Michelle agreed to call her back to see who broke the engine ie., broke the starter off the block. This same day Chevrolet Customer Care called the dealer I received an email from the dealer showing two pics of the underside which were grainy and didn't tell me anything. There was no explanation. I felt the response was inadequate and determined there was no use trying to work with the dealer anymore. I told Michelle / Customer Care I felt that a destroyed Corvette Z06 engine demands a written explanation of what exactly happened and why at a minimum, and that the dealer is meant to be the expert and they shouldn’t make things worse and completlely destroy an engine. Michelle called again on Monday, October 1st. She said she spoke with the dealership and they said they didn’t break anything, that it was water in the engine and they made me aware. I said that person she spoke to wasn’t involved and she should be speaking to the service manager. Michelle said she’d call the service manager and, if appropriate, someone higher up. On Friday Michelle called to say she’s still having the same outcome with the dealer, and that I must resolve it with them, or go to the Better Business Bureau, if they won’t take responsibility. She said she’d close my case as dealer dissatisfied.
BBB
I filed a complaint with the Better Business Bureau, told my story and asked that the dealer restore engine to its previous state, and fix cause of smoke issue. Already long story short, on 10/19 the service manager agreed to explain in writing the process that was followed and why their breaking the starter off the block (ruining the engine) couldn't have been avoided. 10/22 she called back and said they wouldn't provide a written explanation. She said they're trying to work with me and would make an (kind of settlement) offer (even though they did everything by the book trust me). Yesterday (10/29) they offered to secure and install a used Z06 engine with about 75,000 miles vs the ruined one with about 73,000 miles for $6,860. Plus they recommended a new engine control module for $450 installed, but they could probably work with me on that cost. They said judging by the look of the module's cover on the outside, a faulty module is probably why two of the cylinders were filled with gas causing the hydro lock that ruined the engine when the mechanic restarted the car after doing diagnostics (the engine ran when delivered to the dealer). So I'm struggling with whether i should accept the $6,860 deal when, according to their own assessment, I would have paid $450 to fix the engine.
Then, to complicated matters even more, later yesterday afternoon, I got a response from the BBB where the dealer explained in writing (kind of) what happened, which they refused to do for me the customer.
(BBB) MESSAGE FROM BUSINESS:
The Vehicle came to us with on flatbed not operational with a customer complaint of vehicle smoking, service light on dash and customer stating the vehicle just came from another shop and he believed there was water damage in the engine area. One of our Certified Technicians started the vehicle and drove it the service area at that time Vehicle was not smoking and ran well however the vehicle did have service lights on the dash the vehicle ran for 10 minuets and was shoot off no running issues at that point. Our technician then plugged the vehicle in to our computer system to read the vehicle service codes and started the vehicle once again this was when the engine kicked and broke the starter and the fly wheel. This all was caused by an ECM that directed the fuel system to add addition gas into the motor causing fuel to fill up the cylinder head and combust at a larger level then normal. We completed all diagnosis's in a proper manner and follow our processes to the T.
What should I do? Appreciate any insights as to whether good process was followed and whether ruining the engine could have been / should have been avoided. Thanks in advance for reading.
10-30-2018, 11:30 AM
#2
Safety Car
If water got into it at the detailing place it would of hydro locked right away I cannot see that engine running as long as you were running it with water in it. Only if they cracked the head or block by hitting it with cold water when the engine was hot. The another thing I can thing of is they should of pulled the plugs in the cylinders that was miss fired to see if there was fluid or flood
10-30-2018, 11:49 AM
#3
Drifting
Your first mistake was probably taking the car somewhere to have "the engine cleaned". The LS in the C5 has it's coil packs and similar wiring well exposed and considering 2002 might as well be an eternity ago in modern car design everything has aged. It doesn't matter if it's a 2,000 mile garage queen or a 200,000 mile driver; age is age.
If you were showing a mis-fire on 2 and 7, what I surmise occurred is that 2 and 7 probably couldn't fire due to having their coils shorted or some other similar occurrence from the "cleaning" process. Fuel then pooled into the cylinder and I'd even further surmise some residual fuel may have escaped as rings expand and contract, contacting oil, but it more or less did pool which fuel isn't supposed to do in the combustion chamber.
Personally I can't take sides for anything and I will say it's unfortunate what you had happen but I don't know how well you could actually prove it was their fault as you've likely realized. I believe at this point you probably should source a good long block, but I think the price you were given is a bit out there for a used replacement LS6. At near $7,000 you could easily source something with more power and still come out with some money. You can find crate LS3 engines for that sort of cost and putting an LS3 in your car is 1) easy and 2) has potential to increase it's re-sale value in the private market since it'll have more power than the Z06's LS6 [Trust me; no one buying a C5 cares if it has the original engine or not. All people want to know is how much power it makes and can it do so consistently. The days of "numbers matching" is well over and that at a statement doesn't even make sense on a modern car].
Also in the future and I may get some kick back from this I wouldn't go to a engine cleaning place or try spraying anything on your engine with it in the car and accessories attached. When I clean my engine and engine compartment the ONLY thing that gets sprayed on anything is Simple Green and that's no where near any sort of electrical connections. Everything else is scrubbed by hand with either a rag or the assortment of small soft brushes I keep in the shop.
If you were showing a mis-fire on 2 and 7, what I surmise occurred is that 2 and 7 probably couldn't fire due to having their coils shorted or some other similar occurrence from the "cleaning" process. Fuel then pooled into the cylinder and I'd even further surmise some residual fuel may have escaped as rings expand and contract, contacting oil, but it more or less did pool which fuel isn't supposed to do in the combustion chamber.
Personally I can't take sides for anything and I will say it's unfortunate what you had happen but I don't know how well you could actually prove it was their fault as you've likely realized. I believe at this point you probably should source a good long block, but I think the price you were given is a bit out there for a used replacement LS6. At near $7,000 you could easily source something with more power and still come out with some money. You can find crate LS3 engines for that sort of cost and putting an LS3 in your car is 1) easy and 2) has potential to increase it's re-sale value in the private market since it'll have more power than the Z06's LS6 [Trust me; no one buying a C5 cares if it has the original engine or not. All people want to know is how much power it makes and can it do so consistently. The days of "numbers matching" is well over and that at a statement doesn't even make sense on a modern car].
Also in the future and I may get some kick back from this I wouldn't go to a engine cleaning place or try spraying anything on your engine with it in the car and accessories attached. When I clean my engine and engine compartment the ONLY thing that gets sprayed on anything is Simple Green and that's no where near any sort of electrical connections. Everything else is scrubbed by hand with either a rag or the assortment of small soft brushes I keep in the shop.
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10-30-2018, 03:24 PM
#6
Race Director
Member Since: Apr 2007
Location: South Western Ontario
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The only way you might get legal help is if you have it in writing that the dealer found gas and then tried to start it again after. Otherwise, it's just a case of it failing while they were trying to figure out what was wrong.
Gather the block piece from the dealer and find a good welder to weld it back on. Or, Google LS1 starter bridge for a bracket that is supposed to be able to fix it. Put a truck starter with equal length bolts on it so you are able to turn the engine over.
Then, get the issue with the injector fixed so it will start and run again. It's possible, but I wouldn't blindly believe the dealer claim that the PCM is the issue. It's more likely that a mechanically stuck injector or a wiring short would be the cause. GM PCM's are VERY well sealed. The only way corrosion on the outside affects them is if it rots right through the case. I've seen PCM's that were extremely corroded looking on the outside but they still run the engine just fine and were still perfectly clean inside. Heck, I have an OLD LT1 PCM on my shelf that was in a car fire that burned the wires off the connectors and blackened the case and it still works perfectly.
Blindly pressure washing under a hood is stupidity. You can do it, but you have to be very careful where you aim and how close you get. I've never hurt anything using cleaner, brushes and a garden hose yet. I don't use a pressure washer and don't see any real advantage to using one. Oil and dirt won't fully come off without scrubbing no matter how much pressurized water you hit it with.
Gather the block piece from the dealer and find a good welder to weld it back on. Or, Google LS1 starter bridge for a bracket that is supposed to be able to fix it. Put a truck starter with equal length bolts on it so you are able to turn the engine over.
Then, get the issue with the injector fixed so it will start and run again. It's possible, but I wouldn't blindly believe the dealer claim that the PCM is the issue. It's more likely that a mechanically stuck injector or a wiring short would be the cause. GM PCM's are VERY well sealed. The only way corrosion on the outside affects them is if it rots right through the case. I've seen PCM's that were extremely corroded looking on the outside but they still run the engine just fine and were still perfectly clean inside. Heck, I have an OLD LT1 PCM on my shelf that was in a car fire that burned the wires off the connectors and blackened the case and it still works perfectly.
Blindly pressure washing under a hood is stupidity. You can do it, but you have to be very careful where you aim and how close you get. I've never hurt anything using cleaner, brushes and a garden hose yet. I don't use a pressure washer and don't see any real advantage to using one. Oil and dirt won't fully come off without scrubbing no matter how much pressurized water you hit it with.
The following 2 users liked this post by lionelhutz:
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10-30-2018, 04:57 PM
#7
Melting Slicks
...Gather the block piece from the dealer and find a good welder to weld it back on. Or, Google LS1 starter bridge for a bracket that is supposed to be able to fix it. Put a truck starter with equal length bolts on it so you are able to turn the engine over.
Then, get the issue with the injector fixed so it will start and run again...
Then, get the issue with the injector fixed so it will start and run again...
The LS starter bridge mentioned above can be found here.
Last edited by GCG; 10-30-2018 at 05:02 PM.
10-30-2018, 05:12 PM
#8
Melting Slicks
...I also asked the service department for a detailed explanation in writing and was given a computer print out briefly stating “complaint,” “cause,” and “correction,” saying specifically "Customer states had vet detailed at another store and now car is smoking while driving. Check for leaks and advised #7 fuel injector stuck open # 7 cylinder fuel filled and hydro locked. Broke starter ear off block and long starter bolt - recommend replacing engine." ...
Last edited by GCG; 10-30-2018 at 10:31 PM.
10-30-2018, 10:47 PM
#9
Race Director
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Doesn't look specific enough to me, but I'm not a lawyer. You'd want proof they knew a cylinder could be filling with fuel which could cause it to hydrolock and break something yet they cranked it over anyways. That just says that the cylinder was found to be full of fuel and not the sequence of events. With that note, the sequence of events could easily be they attempted a start to witness the smoke and poor running but it hydrolocked which then started a further investigation until they found a cylinder that was full of fuel.
Sadly, if you do involve a lawyer you'll never get back anything close to the replacement costs anyways once you pay their fee.
Sadly, if you do involve a lawyer you'll never get back anything close to the replacement costs anyways once you pay their fee.
10-31-2018, 03:56 AM
#10
Instructor
Starter bridge looks like the solution to your problem. Genius idea!
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El original (11-11-2018)
10-31-2018, 08:18 AM
#12
Burning Brakes
Sorry you are having such a bad time. Terrible situation.
Hindsight is perfect but seeing the future is not clear. Hope you get the results you want.
A lesson for the rest of us is to clean the engine ourselves and not power wash I guess.
I ruined some electrical components on one of my vehicles back in the late 70's by power washing under the hood and vowed to never do it again. I am a clean freak with my under hood components but I use elbow grease and mild soap. Takes longer but works quite well.
Good luck!
Hindsight is perfect but seeing the future is not clear. Hope you get the results you want.
A lesson for the rest of us is to clean the engine ourselves and not power wash I guess.
I ruined some electrical components on one of my vehicles back in the late 70's by power washing under the hood and vowed to never do it again. I am a clean freak with my under hood components but I use elbow grease and mild soap. Takes longer but works quite well.
Good luck!
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10-31-2018, 08:49 AM
#13
Burning Brakes
I’d sue the basterds. It ran when you brought it in and they broke it. Save all your communications, make notes of what you were told. They are obviously trying to blame the detailer and they decided the story is the detailer hydrolocked the engine. That is total BS. You drove it, they drove it. If the injectors were malfunctioning the car was at least running. Classic case of poor troubleshooting by modern “mechanics.” They plug in a computer and it tells them what to do. They see a cylinder filled with gas and they put the plug back in and try to start the car.
I've had to sue a manufacturer before for a denied warranty claim. I got the same kind of advice to “let it go”, “move on”, “lesson learned.” The manufacturer paid in the end, more than it would have cost them to fix under the warranty. You have nothing to lose.
I've had to sue a manufacturer before for a denied warranty claim. I got the same kind of advice to “let it go”, “move on”, “lesson learned.” The manufacturer paid in the end, more than it would have cost them to fix under the warranty. You have nothing to lose.
Last edited by maj75; 10-31-2018 at 08:50 AM.
10-31-2018, 11:12 AM
#15
Burning Brakes
Power washing any engine from the mid 70's and on is just asking for trouble. High pressure water basically forces water past seals and into the electronics which causes all sorts of problems short and even long term. Electronics can short out and optical sensors can fog up causing false readings. I've always used low pressure hot water either directly from a water heater or from a tee spliced into your home's hot water line. I've even cleaned my C5's engine this way with no problems.
As others have mentioned there is no way your engine was hydro locked from water intrusion when you left the detailer, but there is a good chance water got into some wiring harnesses that control the coils and/or injectors which started the random misfires and fuel puddling. The smoke coming from the exhaust was just unburned fuel from the cylinders that weren't firing. There are multiple possibilities for the broken starter. It could be from fuel puddling, but it would take quite a bit to hydro lock unless an injector was held wide open without pulsing and no spark. If the injectors were working properly even with no spark the small amount of fuel in a cylinder would just be blown out into the exhaust before it could it could hydro lock. If either the injectors or coils are not firing at the correct time it could cause a severe imbalance and put too much pressure on the starter causing it to break the mounting pad. Water in the harnesses could easily results in cross firing coils and/or injectors which can cause all sorts of chaos.
If this happened to me I would probably sue both the detailer and the dealership since both made mistakes which led to the destruction of your engine. If you have $7k to replace the engine, do what others have suggested and get a nice LS3 since they're about the same price. I wouldn't bother trying to band aide the starter pad unless you can be sure you don't have internal engine damage like broken rings, bent rods, etc. No matter what you end up doing go after the people responsible for this mess.
Steve
As others have mentioned there is no way your engine was hydro locked from water intrusion when you left the detailer, but there is a good chance water got into some wiring harnesses that control the coils and/or injectors which started the random misfires and fuel puddling. The smoke coming from the exhaust was just unburned fuel from the cylinders that weren't firing. There are multiple possibilities for the broken starter. It could be from fuel puddling, but it would take quite a bit to hydro lock unless an injector was held wide open without pulsing and no spark. If the injectors were working properly even with no spark the small amount of fuel in a cylinder would just be blown out into the exhaust before it could it could hydro lock. If either the injectors or coils are not firing at the correct time it could cause a severe imbalance and put too much pressure on the starter causing it to break the mounting pad. Water in the harnesses could easily results in cross firing coils and/or injectors which can cause all sorts of chaos.
If this happened to me I would probably sue both the detailer and the dealership since both made mistakes which led to the destruction of your engine. If you have $7k to replace the engine, do what others have suggested and get a nice LS3 since they're about the same price. I wouldn't bother trying to band aide the starter pad unless you can be sure you don't have internal engine damage like broken rings, bent rods, etc. No matter what you end up doing go after the people responsible for this mess.
Steve
10-31-2018, 04:41 PM
#16
They called back approximately 5-6 days later and said they were able to get to the PCM module and it showed corrosion on the cover. She said it could cause the system to tell the engine to leave the valve open.
10-31-2018, 09:09 PM
#17
Racer
I am a technician that works at a dealer. Heres my take:
Getting the engine powerwashed... horrible idea.
If a cylinder is full of gas and you try to start it, that gas isn't going to ignite (like they claimed in their response to the BBB). Theres not enough air. Most of the time (at least on the foreign cars I work on) its not even going to cause a problem. It just won't start... those starters on foreign cars don't have the power to cause damage or bend a rod. The starters on our cars? Yeah, I can see it breaking something. Knowing there was a cylinder full of gas, he should not have tried to start it. What he should have done was make sure no other cylinders had fuel in them, leave it sit for a while, preferably over night, then pull that cylinders spark plug, disconnect the injector and see what happens. That way, when you start it to see if it will run without smoking, if theres any fuel left in there it just gets blown out the spark plug hole.
Over all, I think the problem very well could have stemmed from having the engine detailed. It could also be from the corroded portion of the PCM. I don't care HOW well sealed it is... if theres corrosion in the connector or the pins it can cause a problem. It could also just be a stuck open injector, or a short to power (or ground, depending on how its controlled, not sure on our cars).
A question i don't think anyone has asked: what color was the smoke? EDIT- sorry, just re read and saw you said white smoke. White is usually indicitive of coolant, excess fuel is usually black. These are rules of thumb however, and are not set in stone.
Last edited by acuevo; 10-31-2018 at 09:14 PM.
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El original (11-11-2018)
11-01-2018, 08:12 AM
#18
Thanks for your excellent insights, and everyone else, too. Unfortunately, it seems there's no definiitive answer. Fundamentally, I feel a car should not be made worse by a shop, especially when the (what I now now was stupid) engine detail work / water issues was known in advance. I was hoping you all could help identify whether the steps that were followed according to the written explanations would show reasonable precautions (to avoid hydro lock) were taken. I'm inclined to sue, but am afraid I won't be able to prove negligence. Don't want to put more good money after bad.
I'm interested in the idea of putting a new engine in and remember the newer ones were more powerful similar to my Z06. Which new engine would you all recommend as best in this situation? And could you possibly recommend a good source?
Thanks again so much,
(Not Technical) Tom
I'm interested in the idea of putting a new engine in and remember the newer ones were more powerful similar to my Z06. Which new engine would you all recommend as best in this situation? And could you possibly recommend a good source?
Thanks again so much,
(Not Technical) Tom
11-01-2018, 10:23 AM
#19
Racer
If you're going to wind up putting out serious coin to get a new engine, an Ls3 would be the way to go. Probably cost more than what the dealer is quoting you for the used ls6 but not by a whole lot. If you find a used ls3 it could even be cheaper. You'll need harness adapters and a converter module for the crankshaft signal, and probably a few other things. Look up ls3 swap in c5, theres a lot of info on it. Have a well known reputible shop do the work.
11-01-2018, 10:41 AM
#20
Melting Slicks
Have you considered Lionelhutz's suggestion of using an LS Starter Bridge along with a 2-long-bolt starter, as mentioned above in Post 6 and Post 7?
This is a solid solution (pun intended) and eliminates the provided reason for having to replace the engine. Basically it will give you the opportunity to go back to the starting point to troubleshoot the original problem.
Last edited by GCG; 11-01-2018 at 10:43 AM.