whats with 98 c5 throws tons of codes after missfire while starting?
11-17-2018, 04:02 PM
#21
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Hey,
I replaced the crank sensor but it didn't help.( Didn't realize removing the exhaust would be so much fun). Even pulled the starter again to be sure everything was right and it was. The battery seems to be OK, although it's close to 5 yrs old , the car is seldom driven and always on a "maintenance" 1.5 volt charger between rides. After being on a trickle charger until fully charged it measured 13.6V but I haven't tested it under load. I will do that today.
With the battery fully charged I again tried to start it and no luck. The DIC messages were: SVC ACTIVE HDLG, SVC TRACTION SYS, SVC TIRE MONITORING SYS, CHECK TIRE PRESSURE, SVC VEHICLE SOON. The DIC codes were: 28 TCS U1016 C and HVAC BO363 H. This HVAC fault is due to a A/C door not working/closing properly. It has shown up lots of times but always resets(I can hear the door closing when I reset it.) so it's not an issue. The battery had been unhooked from both the positive and negative posts prior to this try and I don't know if that may have been the cause of some messages or not. I have never seen the SVC TIRE MONITORING or CHECK TIRE PRESSURE or SVC VEHICLE SOON codes ever.
A few days before all this happened my oil service monitor was at 80% and wasn't driven since I checked it. After clearing/resetting the codes, I tried again to start it and got the same result, no start, but not the SVC TIRE MON,, CHECK TIRE PRESSURE and SERVICE VEHICLE SOON. Again got SVC TRC & ACTIVEHDLG but not the other codes. Seems there isn't much of a pattern.
Today, I plan to look below the battery for corrosion as I noticed a small amount of the white stuff in the tray. It was left from the prior battery as my current one has not leaked, but may have caused problems that are just now showing up I will check the ECU for connections and any potential corrosion there. After removing the panel in the wheel well I could see where acid or something has run down the firewall below the battery and striped the paint. Are there connectors below the battery that could be compromised?
Question about 2 second fuel pump when the key is turned on. Does the sound of the pump come from under the car or on top of the engine along the fuel rails?
There is pressure at the Schrader valve and fuel comes out if the valve is pressed after the key is on, if that matters.
Thanks to all of your input!!!
I replaced the crank sensor but it didn't help.( Didn't realize removing the exhaust would be so much fun). Even pulled the starter again to be sure everything was right and it was. The battery seems to be OK, although it's close to 5 yrs old , the car is seldom driven and always on a "maintenance" 1.5 volt charger between rides. After being on a trickle charger until fully charged it measured 13.6V but I haven't tested it under load. I will do that today.
With the battery fully charged I again tried to start it and no luck. The DIC messages were: SVC ACTIVE HDLG, SVC TRACTION SYS, SVC TIRE MONITORING SYS, CHECK TIRE PRESSURE, SVC VEHICLE SOON. The DIC codes were: 28 TCS U1016 C and HVAC BO363 H. This HVAC fault is due to a A/C door not working/closing properly. It has shown up lots of times but always resets(I can hear the door closing when I reset it.) so it's not an issue. The battery had been unhooked from both the positive and negative posts prior to this try and I don't know if that may have been the cause of some messages or not. I have never seen the SVC TIRE MONITORING or CHECK TIRE PRESSURE or SVC VEHICLE SOON codes ever.
A few days before all this happened my oil service monitor was at 80% and wasn't driven since I checked it. After clearing/resetting the codes, I tried again to start it and got the same result, no start, but not the SVC TIRE MON,, CHECK TIRE PRESSURE and SERVICE VEHICLE SOON. Again got SVC TRC & ACTIVEHDLG but not the other codes. Seems there isn't much of a pattern.
Today, I plan to look below the battery for corrosion as I noticed a small amount of the white stuff in the tray. It was left from the prior battery as my current one has not leaked, but may have caused problems that are just now showing up I will check the ECU for connections and any potential corrosion there. After removing the panel in the wheel well I could see where acid or something has run down the firewall below the battery and striped the paint. Are there connectors below the battery that could be compromised?
Question about 2 second fuel pump when the key is turned on. Does the sound of the pump come from under the car or on top of the engine along the fuel rails?
There is pressure at the Schrader valve and fuel comes out if the valve is pressed after the key is on, if that matters.
Thanks to all of your input!!!
11-17-2018, 04:15 PM
#22
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CI 6,7,8,9,11 Vet
St. Jude Donor '08
The fuel pump is inside the drivers side tank. Have someone turn on the ignition while you open the fuel tank and listen to the fuel tank opening You will for sure hear it then.
Does the car crank and not run or not crank at all???
If you clear ALL the DTCs and crank the car,,, What DTCs come back??
BC
Does the car crank and not run or not crank at all???
If you clear ALL the DTCs and crank the car,,, What DTCs come back??
BC
11-17-2018, 04:45 PM
#23
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Hi !!...without checking circuit integrity of the crank sensor we really can’t say conclusively that a new CKP wouldn’t have solved your problem. Did you use an aftermarket or OEM sensor ??....well, don’t know if you want to get back under there to check wiring and also for that injector pulse but if you don’t you’ll be firing that parts canon..,you load test that battery ?????
Last edited by C5 Diag; 11-17-2018 at 08:10 PM.
11-21-2018, 02:56 PM
#24
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Thread Starter
Hello Bill,
The engine turns over but doesn't start. Different codes show up at different times. Question? Do I get extra codes because the battery gets unhooked??
I found that a prior battery had leaked, although that must have been nearly 5 yrs ago or longer. I thought at first that nothing electronic had been involved as the acid left a 1/2 "path on the firewall from inside the battery box that indicated it didn't reach any plugins, electronics or wiring. But when I was again checking for corrosion I could see white powder on the visible (bottom) of the ECM in between the plugins. I pulled the outer most plug and it doesn't appear that anything got to the pins inside. I didn't pull the other one yet. After I clean and hookup the ECM, I will get the DIC codes, following your instructions(not to turn the key off between start attempts) as I believe I was.
I did test the battery after it had been be off the charger for 20+ hrs. Battery was at 13.6 volts and the load test came back at 11.5v and rose slightly after at least 20 seconds under load. Used a battery tester.
I haven't been able to answer all the questions you guys have asked when it comes to testing certain things(injector pulse, & listening for the fuel pump) while the engine is turning over as I haven't had anyone to help but will get that done in the next few days.
Hope you all have a great Turkey Day and thanks for the assistance with this. Dennis
The engine turns over but doesn't start. Different codes show up at different times. Question? Do I get extra codes because the battery gets unhooked??
I found that a prior battery had leaked, although that must have been nearly 5 yrs ago or longer. I thought at first that nothing electronic had been involved as the acid left a 1/2 "path on the firewall from inside the battery box that indicated it didn't reach any plugins, electronics or wiring. But when I was again checking for corrosion I could see white powder on the visible (bottom) of the ECM in between the plugins. I pulled the outer most plug and it doesn't appear that anything got to the pins inside. I didn't pull the other one yet. After I clean and hookup the ECM, I will get the DIC codes, following your instructions(not to turn the key off between start attempts) as I believe I was.
I did test the battery after it had been be off the charger for 20+ hrs. Battery was at 13.6 volts and the load test came back at 11.5v and rose slightly after at least 20 seconds under load. Used a battery tester.
I haven't been able to answer all the questions you guys have asked when it comes to testing certain things(injector pulse, & listening for the fuel pump) while the engine is turning over as I haven't had anyone to help but will get that done in the next few days.
Hope you all have a great Turkey Day and thanks for the assistance with this. Dennis
11-21-2018, 04:30 PM
#25
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Dennis,Happy Thanksgiving !!
Just trying to put together all you have and don't have:
1) No spark...verified !!
2) We don't know if you are getting fuel pump to prime when you turn the key to ON....Can you check that ??...you said it might have been running for 15-20 seconds...it shouldn't !!
3) You tried the Brake Kleen and "no start" or "attempted start" so you have a fuel delivery issue...no fuel pressure OR injector pulse ( I can show you how to check for that if you want...all you need is a 12v test light)....now that pump should over prime for 2 seconds...NO MORE...unless you crank or start the engine...would be helpful to see if you have fuel pressure at the rail....most Auto Zone or Pep Boys carry fuel pressure gauges....there is a Schrader valve on the rail for easy connection.
4) I just noticed you have or had some "U" codes on thread #22...."communication codes"...I'm assuming you don't have a scan tool to see if you can communicate with all the modules. There are 2 splice packs (Star Connectors) near the BCM....one has 4 wires and the other 9 wires I believe...you can pop off the "shorting bar"...(looks like a comb) off the one with 4 wires and see if the car tries to start...if no luck pull the other one off but you have to take a small jumper wire and jump the pins with the dark green and light green wires...you need the PCM and BCM connected together and "talking" to each other for the car to start...I'll include a pic of mine I took a while back. You just pinch the ends of the gray "shorting bar" and you can remove it....see if the car now starts.
5) New CRK sensor didn't work BUT the wiring wasn't check so we don't know if that can be verified right now that it's a crank sensor problem. You had a current 0335 DTC. (MY fault for not telling you to check the CKP sensor wiring !!)...did you buy an aftermarket or OEM sensor ???
6) Well gotta run...crazy day here at the airport...busiest day of the year....TO EVERYONE....a HAPPY and SAFE THANKSGIVING !!
Last edited by C5 Diag; 11-21-2018 at 06:15 PM.
11-26-2018, 07:38 PM
#26
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Thread Starter
Hey Rob,
Hope you had a great turkey day! You also, Bill!
-Again confirmed no spark.
-Fuel pressure is 54 lbs at the Schrader valve.
-The fuel pump is the sound I hear while listening in the tank filler. It corresponds with the sound I hear along the top of the engine. Kind of a buzzing sound. It does run about 2 seconds, but if I don't turn off the ignition, it will repeat after a minute or so, sometimes several times, like it is losing fuel pressure, but I didn't see any loss of of pressure(maybe 1-2 lbs at most).
-I checked for injector pulse but got nothing.
-I did check the splice paks in the footwell and following your instructions, no luck there, tested again still nothing. I tried it with both grounding strips removed and also just the pak I was testing.-Tell me how to check the wiring,--- I did check the new CPK b4 I installed it and the one I removed and the Ohms were nearly the same 5.06 vs 5.08. Not sure that matters?Picked it up at Autozone, only place in Greeley that had one on hand. The salesman thought I needed a new ignition switch, said it would be vulnerable if problem started when I hit the ignition.????
-I charged the battery up to 13.5v and tried to start, reset all codes, and without turning the key off, tried to start again and found the following codes after the try: 10-PCM PO335 C,
28 TCS U1016 H.
Thanks
Dennis
Hope you had a great turkey day! You also, Bill!
-Again confirmed no spark.
-Fuel pressure is 54 lbs at the Schrader valve.
-The fuel pump is the sound I hear while listening in the tank filler. It corresponds with the sound I hear along the top of the engine. Kind of a buzzing sound. It does run about 2 seconds, but if I don't turn off the ignition, it will repeat after a minute or so, sometimes several times, like it is losing fuel pressure, but I didn't see any loss of of pressure(maybe 1-2 lbs at most).
-I checked for injector pulse but got nothing.
-I did check the splice paks in the footwell and following your instructions, no luck there, tested again still nothing. I tried it with both grounding strips removed and also just the pak I was testing.-Tell me how to check the wiring,--- I did check the new CPK b4 I installed it and the one I removed and the Ohms were nearly the same 5.06 vs 5.08. Not sure that matters?Picked it up at Autozone, only place in Greeley that had one on hand. The salesman thought I needed a new ignition switch, said it would be vulnerable if problem started when I hit the ignition.????
-I charged the battery up to 13.5v and tried to start, reset all codes, and without turning the key off, tried to start again and found the following codes after the try: 10-PCM PO335 C,
28 TCS U1016 H.
Thanks
Dennis
11-26-2018, 08:14 PM
#27
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Hey Dennis !!
OK, still no injector pulse with no spark and a P0335...I’m assuming the resistance you were checking was the old and new crank sensor...I usually don’t bother checking power, ground, and signal since I just hook up my scope to the crank sensor signal wire at the PCM and check for a 0-12 volt square wave...to check the crank sensor wiring you would disconnect the sensor connector and check for 12 volts on the light green wire, less than 100mv on the low reference(ground) yellow/black wire and the signal...dark blue/white...these are colors for an ‘01 BTW...I can’t remember if the signal wire is a “pull up” or pull down” design...if it’s a pull up you would see low voltage on the signal wire with the key ON...in that case you would take a 12 volt test light connected to battery POSITIVE and touch the tip of the test light to the multimeter positive test lead that is connected to the signal wire...if the multimeter now shows 12 volts the signal circuit is OK...if the multimeter shows 12 volts with the multimeter you connect the 12 volt test light to battery NEGATIVE and touch the tip of the test light to the red multimeter lead connected to the signal wire... if the test light pulls the signal wire to ground(0 volts) the signal wire is fine !!...if you want I can check mine at the PCM with the connector NOT disconnected...don’t want to pull my starter to do this but I should have had you checked the sensor wiring when you had the connector removed...my fault !!....also, I’d be wary of using an AFTERMARKET SENSOR !!...and after 2 seconds your should NOT be hearing the fuel pump running because the engine is not cranking or receiving an RPM signal !!
OK, still no injector pulse with no spark and a P0335...I’m assuming the resistance you were checking was the old and new crank sensor...I usually don’t bother checking power, ground, and signal since I just hook up my scope to the crank sensor signal wire at the PCM and check for a 0-12 volt square wave...to check the crank sensor wiring you would disconnect the sensor connector and check for 12 volts on the light green wire, less than 100mv on the low reference(ground) yellow/black wire and the signal...dark blue/white...these are colors for an ‘01 BTW...I can’t remember if the signal wire is a “pull up” or pull down” design...if it’s a pull up you would see low voltage on the signal wire with the key ON...in that case you would take a 12 volt test light connected to battery POSITIVE and touch the tip of the test light to the multimeter positive test lead that is connected to the signal wire...if the multimeter now shows 12 volts the signal circuit is OK...if the multimeter shows 12 volts with the multimeter you connect the 12 volt test light to battery NEGATIVE and touch the tip of the test light to the red multimeter lead connected to the signal wire... if the test light pulls the signal wire to ground(0 volts) the signal wire is fine !!...if you want I can check mine at the PCM with the connector NOT disconnected...don’t want to pull my starter to do this but I should have had you checked the sensor wiring when you had the connector removed...my fault !!....also, I’d be wary of using an AFTERMARKET SENSOR !!...and after 2 seconds your should NOT be hearing the fuel pump running because the engine is not cranking or receiving an RPM signal !!
Last edited by C5 Diag; 11-27-2018 at 01:13 AM.
11-29-2018, 03:22 PM
#29
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Thread Starter
Sorry, pushed the wrong button, this should make a little more sense.
On the light green wire only 3v. not even close!!!!
On the yellow/black 17.2 mv.
On the blue/white 22.2 mv
12v test lite hooked to battery positive - touch lite to multimeter positive 11.6v.
I tested the battery right after seeing that and it also tested at 11.6v, so the battery had run down some.
When I tested 12v test lite to battery negative - touched to multimeter was minus -7.2mv.
When I was doing the testing, touching the test lite to the multimeter would cause the fuel pump run several times for 5 to 10 seconds then be ok/stop, is that normal? Also the horn honked, just a beep.
The fuel pump had been working as it should, key on, 2 seconds only, for the last few times I worked on it.
Where do I look for that 3v problem??
Your help is much appreciated! I'm afraid my electrical knowledge is lacking. Mechanical skills I have, but growing up in the age before computers, leaves me lost on this problem.
Thanks Rob & Bill
On the light green wire only 3v. not even close!!!!
On the yellow/black 17.2 mv.
On the blue/white 22.2 mv
12v test lite hooked to battery positive - touch lite to multimeter positive 11.6v.
I tested the battery right after seeing that and it also tested at 11.6v, so the battery had run down some.
When I tested 12v test lite to battery negative - touched to multimeter was minus -7.2mv.
When I was doing the testing, touching the test lite to the multimeter would cause the fuel pump run several times for 5 to 10 seconds then be ok/stop, is that normal? Also the horn honked, just a beep.
The fuel pump had been working as it should, key on, 2 seconds only, for the last few times I worked on it.
Where do I look for that 3v problem??
Your help is much appreciated! I'm afraid my electrical knowledge is lacking. Mechanical skills I have, but growing up in the age before computers, leaves me lost on this problem.
Thanks Rob & Bill
11-29-2018, 03:26 PM
#30
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YES !!...do me a favor...swap the Ignition Relay(#42) with Cooling Fan Relay (#43)... they are both 4 pin maxifuses and try starting the car...let me know what happens ??...#42 controls both bank of injectors and ignition coils !!...also check PCM fuse (#16)...just want to make sure the control side feed of the relay is getting power !!
11-29-2018, 03:57 PM
#31
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Sorry, pushed the wrong button, this should make a little more sense.
On the light green wire only 3v. not even close!!!!
On the yellow/black 17.2 mv.
On the blue/white 22.2 mv
12v test lite hooked to battery positive - touch lite to multimeter positive 11.6v.
I tested the battery right after seeing that and it also tested at 11.6v, so the battery had run down some.
When I tested 12v test lite to battery negative - touched to multimeter was minus -7.2mv.
When I was doing the testing, touching the test lite to the multimeter would cause the fuel pump run several times for 5 to 10 seconds then be ok/stop, is that normal? Also the horn honked, just a beep.
The fuel pump had been working as it should, key on, 2 seconds only, for the last few times I worked on it.
Where do I look for that 3v problem??
Your help is much appreciated! I'm afraid my electrical knowledge is lacking. Mechanical skills I have, but growing up in the age before computers, leaves me lost on this problem.
Thanks Rob & Bill
On the light green wire only 3v. not even close!!!!
On the yellow/black 17.2 mv.
On the blue/white 22.2 mv
12v test lite hooked to battery positive - touch lite to multimeter positive 11.6v.
I tested the battery right after seeing that and it also tested at 11.6v, so the battery had run down some.
When I tested 12v test lite to battery negative - touched to multimeter was minus -7.2mv.
When I was doing the testing, touching the test lite to the multimeter would cause the fuel pump run several times for 5 to 10 seconds then be ok/stop, is that normal? Also the horn honked, just a beep.
The fuel pump had been working as it should, key on, 2 seconds only, for the last few times I worked on it.
Where do I look for that 3v problem??
Your help is much appreciated! I'm afraid my electrical knowledge is lacking. Mechanical skills I have, but growing up in the age before computers, leaves me lost on this problem.
Thanks Rob & Bill
11-29-2018, 05:20 PM
#32
Intermediate
Thread Starter
I tried that b4 at least a couple times with no change during this process. I have to put the starter back in and I'll try it again. I get back to you in a little bit.I'll check for codes also.
Thanks,
Dennis
Thanks,
Dennis
11-29-2018, 06:11 PM
#33
Intermediate
Thread Starter
Hey Rob,
It actually started, but after about 30 seconds the idle slowed way down, recovered for a few seconds then died. Fuel pump went crazy and it wouldn't restart. Checked codes and everything, tire pressure, remove key wait 2 sec, service due, radio, door modules, dash module, seat module, traction control, stability control, antilock brakes. I think I had codes from every module, there also was a 10-PCM PO335 C.The fuel pump was going crazy and the car backfired out the exhaust. I reset\cleared all the codes, Tried again, still no start but the only code was 10-PCM PO335 C and it may have had an H in addition to the C.
It actually started, but after about 30 seconds the idle slowed way down, recovered for a few seconds then died. Fuel pump went crazy and it wouldn't restart. Checked codes and everything, tire pressure, remove key wait 2 sec, service due, radio, door modules, dash module, seat module, traction control, stability control, antilock brakes. I think I had codes from every module, there also was a 10-PCM PO335 C.The fuel pump was going crazy and the car backfired out the exhaust. I reset\cleared all the codes, Tried again, still no start but the only code was 10-PCM PO335 C and it may have had an H in addition to the C.
11-29-2018, 06:16 PM
#34
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Hey Rob,
It actually started, but after about 30 seconds the idle slowed way down, recovered for a few seconds then died. Fuel pump went crazy and it wouldn't restart. Checked codes and everything, tire pressure, remove key wait 2 sec, service due, radio, door modules, dash module, seat module, traction control, stability control, antilock brakes. I think I had codes from every module, there also was a 10-PCM PO335 C.The fuel pump was going crazy and the car backfired out the exhaust. I reset\cleared all the codes, Tried again, still no start but the only code was 10-PCM PO335 C and it may have had an H in addition to the C.
It actually started, but after about 30 seconds the idle slowed way down, recovered for a few seconds then died. Fuel pump went crazy and it wouldn't restart. Checked codes and everything, tire pressure, remove key wait 2 sec, service due, radio, door modules, dash module, seat module, traction control, stability control, antilock brakes. I think I had codes from every module, there also was a 10-PCM PO335 C.The fuel pump was going crazy and the car backfired out the exhaust. I reset\cleared all the codes, Tried again, still no start but the only code was 10-PCM PO335 C and it may have had an H in addition to the C.
11-29-2018, 06:42 PM
#38
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OK, so all you did was disconnect the sensor, checked the wiring, found 3 volts at the 12v reference wire, reconnect connector and then it ran for 30 seconds, correct ??...IF you do have 3 volts at the UNPLUGGED connector you can check the voltage by back probing (using a T pin) the reference wire at the PCM end...sensor light green wire..C1 PCM Connector(Blue)...see if it reads 12 volts there !!...MAYBE a partial short to ground...you can also check pins 19 (pink) and 20 (orange) they are PCM Ignition and Battery supply...see if you have 12 volts there (check with key in start position)
Last edited by C5 Diag; 11-30-2018 at 07:24 AM.
11-29-2018, 06:57 PM
#39
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1) 3 volts at the CRK 12 volt reference wire
2) if the swapping of relays caused the engine to start for a little bit let’s check power and grounds at the ignition relay..,ESPECIALLY the ground side of the Ignition relay “control”...G106 !! ( ground wire above the starter) !!!
12-02-2018, 05:07 PM
#40
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Rob,
When I checked the C1 connection, I probed the lite green and it was 3.4 mv, the pink was 105 mv, and orange was 11.8v. Key on, CKS sensor connected.
When I saw the 3.4mv reading, it was familiar, so I went back to the CKS and checked it unplugged. It was at 3.4mv also. I had told you it was 3.4v, My multimeter is too small for an old guy like me to see very well.
I haven't tried to start it.
Thoughts?
When I checked the C1 connection, I probed the lite green and it was 3.4 mv, the pink was 105 mv, and orange was 11.8v. Key on, CKS sensor connected.
When I saw the 3.4mv reading, it was familiar, so I went back to the CKS and checked it unplugged. It was at 3.4mv also. I had told you it was 3.4v, My multimeter is too small for an old guy like me to see very well.
I haven't tried to start it.
Thoughts?