C6 z06 oil cooler
02-21-2019, 06:59 PM
#22
Instructor
You are technically correct and I feel we are in agreement. What I said is that the effectiveness of the cooler is not linear to the flow rate through it. It will reach a theoretical max in an asymptotic way as flow increases to infinity. I contend that we're up in the diminishing returns region when it comes to flow rate through these coolers.
All the energy required to pump all that oil through the cooler is also heat that is going into your oil, plus that's all power not going to your rear wheels where you want it.
Many of the coolers out there have too high of a restriction to pump all the oil through without getting into that region where you're putting more energy into pumping it than you're getting back by increased cooler effectiveness.
For an occasional HPDE car, such a high restriction cooler with a pressure bypass system is sufficient. I agree with you that for maximum cooling, a large, low restriction cooler with all flow going through it is the most effective, and probably 'too' effective for street driving on a cold day, which is where your excellent thermostat block product comes in and I highly recommend it. I also recommend the bat-wing oil baffles you guys sell... I installed them and they are a great design with high quality.
All the energy required to pump all that oil through the cooler is also heat that is going into your oil, plus that's all power not going to your rear wheels where you want it.
Many of the coolers out there have too high of a restriction to pump all the oil through without getting into that region where you're putting more energy into pumping it than you're getting back by increased cooler effectiveness.
For an occasional HPDE car, such a high restriction cooler with a pressure bypass system is sufficient. I agree with you that for maximum cooling, a large, low restriction cooler with all flow going through it is the most effective, and probably 'too' effective for street driving on a cold day, which is where your excellent thermostat block product comes in and I highly recommend it. I also recommend the bat-wing oil baffles you guys sell... I installed them and they are a great design with high quality.
02-21-2019, 07:54 PM
#23
The C6 factory oil lines do not have a thermostat in them, but they do have a pressure bypass valve, #2 in the drawing below which is part number 25014694 on the Z06. If you search that part number you'll find that it is the oil filter pressure bypass in a crap-ton of GM vehicles.
In my opinion, this is an important feature that the aftermarket has neglected. At high RPM, I don't think you want to be pushing all of your oil through the oil cooler, even with giant -AN lines and a really high flow cooler. With the factory GM lines, there is essentially a maximum flow through the lines and cooler because the pressure valve opens to bypass the cooler if the pressure gets too high.
Just something to think about, but many, many people push all their oil through the cooler and that seems to work just fine. It just didn't seem like a properly engineered solution to me. The decision is yours.
When I put the C6 oil lines into my C5, I dropped the cross member. Some have managed to get the lines in without dropping the cross member, but I couldn't see how that would have been possible, and those that did get it in there without dropping the cross member said stuff like "that was the worst thing I've ever done on any car ever". I was adding the batwing baffle doors anyways, so my crossmember was coming out no matter what, making the installation of the lines simple. They are pretty close to my ARH headers, but they do clear.
EDIT: I almost forgot... the C6 has the oil temperature sensor someplace else, so if you put these lines on your C5 you won't have a spot to screw the oil temp sensor back in. The aftermarket has thought of this of course with their adapters. But the C6 part can be drilled/tapped for the sensor, which is not that big of a deal, but something you do have to deal with.
In my opinion, this is an important feature that the aftermarket has neglected. At high RPM, I don't think you want to be pushing all of your oil through the oil cooler, even with giant -AN lines and a really high flow cooler. With the factory GM lines, there is essentially a maximum flow through the lines and cooler because the pressure valve opens to bypass the cooler if the pressure gets too high.
Just something to think about, but many, many people push all their oil through the cooler and that seems to work just fine. It just didn't seem like a properly engineered solution to me. The decision is yours.
When I put the C6 oil lines into my C5, I dropped the cross member. Some have managed to get the lines in without dropping the cross member, but I couldn't see how that would have been possible, and those that did get it in there without dropping the cross member said stuff like "that was the worst thing I've ever done on any car ever". I was adding the batwing baffle doors anyways, so my crossmember was coming out no matter what, making the installation of the lines simple. They are pretty close to my ARH headers, but they do clear.
EDIT: I almost forgot... the C6 has the oil temperature sensor someplace else, so if you put these lines on your C5 you won't have a spot to screw the oil temp sensor back in. The aftermarket has thought of this of course with their adapters. But the C6 part can be drilled/tapped for the sensor, which is not that big of a deal, but something you do have to deal with.
Do you track the car? if yes wath does your coolant and oil temp look like?
improved racing you talked about 1/2'' line being too small i was thinking of -8an line for a custom setup wich is 1/2'' i.d. so that mean that is i choose to go for a custom kit with your adapter i should go with -10an hose?
02-21-2019, 08:47 PM
#24
Yes, you want dash-ten. -8an is too small, I've never seen anyone recommend that. On the other hand, I believe IR says that -12an is too big for a setup that isn't, like, ***** to the walls.
02-21-2019, 10:29 PM
#25
Instructor
There is room on the front of the C6 oil cooler adapter block to drill/tap for the C5 temperature sensor, and the existing harness is just long enough to reach it there. I took this quick pic of my car just now.
I went with the DeWitts radiator with the in-tank oil cooler that is designed to work with the C6 oil lines used on C6's with an in-tank oil cooler... it's a very 'factory looking' install, which I also liked. I run typical 20 minute HPDEs in the advanced group pushing the car hard. I've overheated the transmission and power steering fluid, but my coolant has never gone over 225 F and my oil has stayed at 260 F or lower, on a 100 F day. I'm happy with that, but I realize that the in-tank cooler has its limitations. For a daily driven car that sees the occasional 20 minute session HPDE, I like the balance of trade-offs with this setup.
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dampermanatee (02-22-2019)
02-22-2019, 08:35 AM
#26
Supporting Vendor
BTW our EGM-112-F1 oil cooler adapter block is plug and play for the factory C5 oil temp sensor. It comes with a new sensor and extended harness that plugs right into the factory harness.
02-22-2019, 09:48 AM
#28
I went with the DeWitts radiator with the in-tank oil cooler that is designed to work with the C6 oil lines used on C6's with an in-tank oil cooler... it's a very 'factory looking' install, which I also liked. I run typical 20 minute HPDEs in the advanced group pushing the car hard. I've overheated the transmission and power steering fluid, but my coolant has never gone over 225 F and my oil has stayed at 260 F or lower, on a 100 F day. I'm happy with that, but I realize that the in-tank cooler has its limitations. For a daily driven car that sees the occasional 20 minute session HPDE, I like the balance of trade-offs with this setup.
But we can all agree your oil cooler setup is much better than not having one at all and yes it does have that very nice "factory installed". appearance. Another thing we that we can all agree on is that its almost criminal (at least in the case of the C5 Z06), that the C5 came from the factory without any type of engine oil cooler setup what so ever.
02-22-2019, 10:12 AM
#29
Instructor
Agreed. All-out race cars should not use an in-tank oil cooler/warmer... it is simply not the best design if your goal is to maximize cooling.
But many of us have street driven, mostly stock, C5's that only see occasional track use in short stints, and for that, the in-tank design is very tempting for the reasons you gave (such as warming the oil faster in some situations). From my experience, it works sufficiently well at cooling the oil in a stock C5 Z06 running the typical 20 minute HPDE session on a pretty hot day.
If you need more cooling (and many do) Improved has a solution (their thermostatic block) to allow the air-to-oil cooler to not over-cool on a street driven car, so that's a good solution too if you need or want to take the next step up in cooler capability.
Remember how this started... the O.P. asked if the OEM lines have a thermostat in them... they do not... it is a pressure controlled bypass, not a temperature controlled bypass. The ImprovedRacing solution is better for an air-to-oil cooler, especially if it's a cold-day-street-driven-short-trip car.
But many of us have street driven, mostly stock, C5's that only see occasional track use in short stints, and for that, the in-tank design is very tempting for the reasons you gave (such as warming the oil faster in some situations). From my experience, it works sufficiently well at cooling the oil in a stock C5 Z06 running the typical 20 minute HPDE session on a pretty hot day.
If you need more cooling (and many do) Improved has a solution (their thermostatic block) to allow the air-to-oil cooler to not over-cool on a street driven car, so that's a good solution too if you need or want to take the next step up in cooler capability.
Remember how this started... the O.P. asked if the OEM lines have a thermostat in them... they do not... it is a pressure controlled bypass, not a temperature controlled bypass. The ImprovedRacing solution is better for an air-to-oil cooler, especially if it's a cold-day-street-driven-short-trip car.
02-22-2019, 09:54 PM
#30
Thanks for all the information guys that really helpped me to get it clearer. Thanks Walt G for the pic of the sensor! I will go with c6z oil line and cooler. I will cover up the cooler for the street or add a derale thermostat on the line not sure wich one i'll do now but probably going with this thermostat: https://www.summitracing.com/int/par...5719/overview/
I konw some people fear barbe fitting like crazy but i'm pretty confident that it will hold witout any problem.
EDIT: the valve is 6 psi of pressure drop not 6 psi but it still shoul be fine since i already put rubber hose on staigth line on a gaz line without any problem and i've seen lots of air line over 125psi with barbed fitting and no leak.
I understand that it's not a top notch system but it will defeitely be better than noting and with the price difference i'll be able to do spend one more day at the track.
I konw some people fear barbe fitting like crazy but i'm pretty confident that it will hold witout any problem.
EDIT: the valve is 6 psi of pressure drop not 6 psi but it still shoul be fine since i already put rubber hose on staigth line on a gaz line without any problem and i've seen lots of air line over 125psi with barbed fitting and no leak.
I understand that it's not a top notch system but it will defeitely be better than noting and with the price difference i'll be able to do spend one more day at the track.
Last edited by dampermanatee; 02-23-2019 at 04:32 PM.
02-25-2019, 05:32 PM
#31
I have torn down an engine that, on the track, had the oil cooler hose pop off its barb. The main bearings were a bit ugly, but two of the rod bearings were so toast that the engine was firmly seized.
It's entirely up to you what you do, but I would not recommend saving $150 for the thermostat and $100 for the fittings if it kills your $2000 [USED] engine (not to mention the labor to replace it.)
At the very least, if you are going to use a barb fitting for your oil line, hose clamp the **** out of it. Those "press on and you're good for 300 PSI" ratings are a bald-faced lie.
Personally I am going with ImprovedRacing's crimped fitting + BMRS SS/teflon hose + firesleeve assemblies and their thermostat.
(Also, did you say this thing has six psi of pressure drop across it? That's ... not a small PSI drop.)
It's entirely up to you what you do, but I would not recommend saving $150 for the thermostat and $100 for the fittings if it kills your $2000 [USED] engine (not to mention the labor to replace it.)
At the very least, if you are going to use a barb fitting for your oil line, hose clamp the **** out of it. Those "press on and you're good for 300 PSI" ratings are a bald-faced lie.
Personally I am going with ImprovedRacing's crimped fitting + BMRS SS/teflon hose + firesleeve assemblies and their thermostat.
(Also, did you say this thing has six psi of pressure drop across it? That's ... not a small PSI drop.)
Last edited by gimp; 02-25-2019 at 05:33 PM.
02-25-2019, 07:32 PM
#32
Of course that i will clamp the **** out of it i didn't knew that 300psi push on fitting were ''aviable'' and i wouldn't have trusted it anyway.
On the total i will dave over 400cad but i do agree that it's cheaper than an engine.
On the total i will dave over 400cad but i do agree that it's cheaper than an engine.
02-26-2019, 09:37 AM
#33
I have used Parker Hannifin 836-10 Blue 5/8" ID push-on hose on an oil cooler setup before in another vehicle without issues, but I would NOT recommend its usage on a C5
http://ph.parker.com/us/15551/en/pus...rpose-hose-836
As a point of reference, you are never supposed to use a clamp over the hose with push-on fittings that have multiple shark fin shaped barbs. It may seem counter intuitive but the clamp (even one designed for say silicone hose or a T-bar type clamp) can and will damaged the hose and compromise the integrity of the union with the multiple shark fin shaped barbs of a push-on fitting. This of course does not apply to the fittings that are specifically design for use with a hose clamp. Always follow the manufacture recommendations when using push-on hose and fittings - or as noted above, you could be temping the fate of your engine.
http://ph.parker.com/us/15551/en/pus...rpose-hose-836
As a point of reference, you are never supposed to use a clamp over the hose with push-on fittings that have multiple shark fin shaped barbs. It may seem counter intuitive but the clamp (even one designed for say silicone hose or a T-bar type clamp) can and will damaged the hose and compromise the integrity of the union with the multiple shark fin shaped barbs of a push-on fitting. This of course does not apply to the fittings that are specifically design for use with a hose clamp. Always follow the manufacture recommendations when using push-on hose and fittings - or as noted above, you could be temping the fate of your engine.