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Help! Need to know if my clutch is out of balance?

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Old 06-29-2004, 11:01 PM
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camiv
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Default Help! Need to know if my clutch is out of balance?

Just had new clutch put in less than 750 miles and I was told the vibrations I feel when driving at certain rpm's is because clutch is out of balance. Mechanic who installed said they balanced it after they resurfaced the wheel but the tech who drove my car said there are a few inferior ways of resurfacing flywheels that make balancing very difficult. I am out on the cost of the first clutch install due to having it done out of state. Kinda hard to bring it back 500 miles away. Need to know forsure what the problem before I go spend more money I don't have at this time.
Old 06-30-2004, 11:07 AM
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ArKay99
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Default Re: Help! Need to know if my clutch is out of balance? (camiv)

What kind of clutch did you have installed? Did they just put in a new clutch plate? Was a new pressure plate installed? If the pressure plate was left and the flywheel turned, that could be your problem. The flywheel is a slightly different weight now and it is not matched to your pressure plate. This could also be an issue if you added a new pressure plate and that is not balanced with your flywheel. The third possibility is that when they turned down your flywheel if there was a balance weight installed in the flywheel it may have come out and now your flywheel is out of balance.
The next question I have is who did the install? They should be contacted and apprised of the problem and given a chance to resolve it. I had a clutch/pp/aluminum flywheel installed a while ago and had vibration issues. I told the installer about it and they worked with me on the problem until it was solved.
Old 06-30-2004, 12:06 PM
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Default Re: Help! Need to know if my clutch is out of balance? (ArKay99)

The clutch was a new spec stage II with re-sufaced stock flywheel. The shop that did the work is in Chicago and I am in Minnesota so I am figuring they are not going to want to refund me cash to have someone else fix there (ultimately mine) problem.
Old 06-30-2004, 12:20 PM
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Default Re: Help! Need to know if my clutch is out of balance? (camiv)

If it's unbalanced, you should feel a vibration with the clutch in and revving it too.

Dope
Old 06-30-2004, 01:27 PM
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Default Re: Help! Need to know if my clutch is out of balance? (camiv)

"makes balancing very difficult"

Either it was in balance, or it was not. Do they have any before and after balance numbers? (grams)

Were the flywheel and pressure plate separately balanced, or balanced as an assembly?

I just went through the same balance mess.
Old 06-30-2004, 03:45 PM
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Default Re: Help! Need to know if my clutch is out of balance? (C5 Tweaker)

You need to check with someone who really knows. The rotating mass of the engine in an LS1 or LS6 is balanced with the flywheel as apart of that mass. That means that the flywheel is weighted to match the weight of the rotating mass of the engine. It is not zero balanced.

Most engines are not built this way. In most engines the flywheel is zero balanced in the same way that wheels on your car are zero balanced. That is not true of our engines. For years its been common practice to resurface a slightly damaged flywheel and then zero balance it. I don't see how this would work with our engines.

I don't KNOW for sure if you can or can not rebalance a flywheel for an LS1 or LS6 so check with someone who does.

Would the process of resurfacing and zero balancing a damaged flywheel throw the engines rotating mass out of balance and cause vibration?

I think that clutch and pressure plate assemblies are normally zero balanced before they leave the factory. It is worth noting that the service manual warns that the flywheel must be reinstalled in the exact position it was in when it was removed. In addition it advises that damaged flywheels should be replaced. It does not mention resurfacing as an option.

I'm not trying to scare you. The only thing I know for sure is that the flywheel is used to balance the rotating mass. With that being the case I don't see how it would be acceptable to resurface and rebalance the flywheel because the balance would no longer match the engine. I think you need to talk with someone who knows about this for sure.
Old 06-30-2004, 05:26 PM
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Default Re: Help! Need to know if my clutch is out of balance? (LeMansBlue04)

I am hpeing someone who does no about this for sure chimes in...i.e. a tuner or someone who has had the problem.
Old 06-30-2004, 05:27 PM
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Default Re: Help! Need to know if my clutch is out of balance? (LeMansBlue04)

You need to check with someone who really knows. The rotating mass of the engine in an LS1 or LS6 is balanced with the flywheel as apart of that mass. That means that the flywheel is weighted to match the weight of the rotating mass of the engine. It is not zero balanced.

Most engines are not built this way. In most engines the flywheel is zero balanced in the same way that wheels on your car are zero balanced. That is not true of our engines. For years its been common practice to resurface a slightly damaged flywheel and then zero balance it. I don't see how this would work with our engines.

I don't KNOW for sure if you can or can not rebalance a flywheel for an LS1 or LS6 so check with someone who does.

Would the process of resurfacing and zero balancing a damaged flywheel throw the engines rotating mass out of balance and cause vibration?

I think that clutch and pressure plate assemblies are normally zero balanced before they leave the factory. It is worth noting that the service manual warns that the flywheel must be reinstalled in the exact position it was in when it was removed. In addition it advises that damaged flywheels should be replaced. It does not mention resurfacing as an option.

I'm not trying to scare you. The only thing I know for sure is that the flywheel is used to balance the rotating mass. With that being the case I don't see how it would be acceptable to resurface and rebalance the flywheel because the balance would no longer match the engine. I think you need to talk with someone who knows about this for sure.
Do you have any proof of this? Everything I have ever read says that the LSx series of engines is internally balanced. I put on an Exedy clutch setup (it is zero balanced) and I have no vibrations.

Dope
Old 06-30-2004, 06:54 PM
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Default Re: Help! Need to know if my clutch is out of balance? (Dope)

Do you have any proof of this? Everything I have ever read says that the LSx series of engines is internally balanced. I put on an Exedy clutch setup (it is zero balanced) and I have no vibrations.

Dope
You mean of being externally balanced via the flywheel? Sure, take a look here:
http://www.popularhotrodding.com/eng...e/0305EM_crank At paragraph 11 it talks about how the LS1 is balanced. It says in part:

"The latest GM small-block, the LS1, and its predecessor, the LT1, are using a mix of both ideas. The front of the crankshaft is neutral, but weights are still added to the flywheel or flexplate to provide final balancing."

Also because of this the service manual contains warnings about replacing the flywheel properly. If you were to for example reinstall it in a position other than the one it was originally placed in the weights on the flywheel would be in the wrong place in relation to the rest of the rotating mass.

For those of us with automatics the service manual also warns us that all the way back to the flexplate the driveline system is blanced together. For 2004 automatics it says:

"DO NOT remove the prop shaft hub or flexplate from the automatic transmission engine flywheel. The flywheel, prop shaft hub and flexplate are balanced as an assembly. If service is required the entire flywheel assembly should be replaced."

My service manual is GMP/04-Y-1 its published by North American Operations GMC in Warren Mi.

For the manual trans the service manual, in addition to warnings about flywheel placement, says that the flywheel, clutch and pressure plate are a balanced assembly and that they are not available as individual components.

Now you can see why I think he needs to talk with someone who knows about how this is done for sure. It does not sound to me like resurfacing the flywheel is a good idea, unless, the person doing it knows EXACTLY how to rebalance the assembly.




[Modified by LeMansBlue04, 6:00 PM 6/30/2004]
Old 06-30-2004, 10:14 PM
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Default Re: Help! Need to know if my clutch is out of balance? (LeMansBlue04)

I do not believe this to be correct. There are internally balanced engines and externally balanced engines. If the engine is externally balanced the flywheel would require weights in a certain place with regard to the crank, as would the harmonic balancer. The harmonic balancer is not keyed on our engines and the flywheel does not have any weights on it in a certain area on all flywheels. The ones that do have weights (mine did not) are in different areas on the flywheel to zero balance them. If weights were added in different places on different flywheels to make up for balance issues in the motor, how would you replicate this when you get an aftermarket flywheel? Those that have transferrred weights from one flywheel to another have always ended up with balance issues.

My service manual says to always replace the flywheel when replacing the clutch but I know plenty of F-Body guys who have them turned (same flywheel as ours) as did I. I believe the flywheel and pressure plate are balanced as a unit at the factory. When I had mine balanced I only brought the flywheel (which had just been turned) to the balancer since I was awaiting my clutch. He asked me if my motor was internally or externallly balanced and I told him it was internally. The reason he asked was the flywheel seemed quite a bit out of balance but I believe this is because the flywheel and factory pressure plate were balanced as a unit and all the weights went into the pressure plate. You can see the holes all around the outside of the stock pressure plate and some of the holes have weights pressed into them. Once he got the flywheel balanced I had then received the pressure plate which he balanced by bolting it to the balanced flywheel and welding weights to the pressure plate (proving that my new RAM was not zero balanced as they claimed, but that's another thread).

If your flywheel and pressure plate were really balanced as a unit then I would maybe look at the torque tube bushings. I'd verify the method used to balance everything. Also, did they replace the pilot bearing? It comes with the SPEC clutch kit so I would imagine they would have.


[Modified by 5 Liter Eater, 9:16 PM 6/30/2004]
Old 06-30-2004, 10:27 PM
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Default Re: Help! Need to know if my clutch is out of balance? (5 Liter Eater)

Do a search and you will find a lot of discussion on this topic several months ago. By my memory, GM does a final check on 6 speed Vettes at final assembly. A small percentage, mine being one of them, require external balance to bring the motor, flywheel and pressure plate into spec. Weights are added to the flywheel. The only logical approach I have read is to check the balance of the existing flywheel when replacing (also note that resurfacing is never recommended) and then balance the new flywheel the same. Pressure plate should always be zero balanced.

I found this out after a zero balanced flywheel and clutch was put in my car and had a nasty vibration 1800 to 2500 rpms. No way to go back after that....

The 427 runs very smooth though!

Again, there were extensive posts with the bonifide GM details, it is a historic problem I don't care to relive.
Old 06-30-2004, 11:23 PM
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Default Re: Help! Need to know if my clutch is out of balance? (5 Liter Eater)

I do not believe this to be correct. There are internally balanced engines and externally balanced engines. If the engine is externally balanced the flywheel would require weights in a certain place with regard to the crank, as would the harmonic balancer. The harmonic balancer is not keyed on our engines and the flywheel does not have any weights on it in a certain area on all flywheels. The ones that do have weights (mine did not) are in different areas on the flywheel to zero balance them. If weights were added in different places on different flywheels to make up for balance issues in the motor, how would you replicate this when you get an aftermarket flywheel? Those that have transferrred weights from one flywheel to another have always ended up with balance issues.

My service manual says to always replace the flywheel when replacing the clutch but I know plenty of F-Body guys who have them turned (same flywheel as ours) as did I. I believe the flywheel and pressure plate are balanced as a unit at the factory. When I had mine balanced I only brought the flywheel (which had just been turned) to the balancer since I was awaiting my clutch. He asked me if my motor was internally or externallly balanced and I told him it was internally. The reason he asked was the flywheel seemed quite a bit out of balance but I believe this is because the flywheel and factory pressure plate were balanced as a unit and all the weights went into the pressure plate. You can see the holes all around the outside of the stock pressure plate and some of the holes have weights pressed into them. Once he got the flywheel balanced I had then received the pressure plate which he balanced by bolting it to the balanced flywheel and welding weights to the pressure plate (proving that my new RAM was not zero balanced as they claimed, but that's another thread).

If your flywheel and pressure plate were really balanced as a unit then I would maybe look at the torque tube bushings. I'd verify the method used to balance everything. Also, did they replace the pilot bearing? It comes with the SPEC clutch kit so I would imagine they would have.
Go ahead... argue with the service manual.
Old 06-30-2004, 11:54 PM
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Default Re: Help! Need to know if my clutch is out of balance? (LeMansBlue04)

I work on LS1's daily and here is how to check it.Push the clutch in and rev the motor,if the vibraation gets worse with rpm the clutch assembly is out of balance or the pilot bearing is screwed up.
The clutch needs to be balanced as a whole assembly.Not just the flywheel.It is highly recommended to buy a new flywheel with every clutch replacement.I will not resurface a stock flywheel!

Now the fix,The shop could of not assembled it right by pulling the flywheel on even(cross tightening till flush)I have seen this many times.Causes the flywheel not to set and will make the clutch feel out of balance. #2 is the clutch really is out of balance.It is good not to drive the car too long with this kind of vibration because it can loosen up the front pullet or even the flywheel.

On another note- The Vette owners manual is not the Holy Book I've found a bunch of wrong information in them. :bb
Old 07-01-2004, 07:44 PM
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Default Re: Help! Need to know if my clutch is out of balance? (Slowhawk)

The vibration is at 2200 rpms with car in neutral and not moving. Then it vibrates at around 3000 rpms when in gear and cruising. you can drive through the vibration at anypoint....I mean give it more gas and the vibration goes away at different times. Interestingly the tuner who did my work in Chicago has totally backed away from help or compensation and tells me now that they no longer recommend Spec clutches as replacement for the stock clutch. This just sucks! :mad
Old 07-01-2004, 09:01 PM
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Default Re: Help! Need to know if my clutch is out of balance? (LeMansBlue04)

...Go ahead... argue with the service manual.
Unfortunately, the service manual is poorly organized. If you want ALL the relevant info on replacing a clutch. You must FIND all of the relevant sections. AND amazingly, the references are not cross-referenced.

Proper installation is crucial, particularly the transfer of the weights from the original to the new flywheel; and positioning the new flywheel in the exact relative position as the original.

The procedure is covered in the shop manual under "flywheel REMOVAL"but omitted from, and not cross-referenced in, the section on clutch REPLACEMENT. A confusing shop manual index further complicates the problem. Many techs do not know to transfer the weights or maintain the correct before- and after- flywheel orientation. Result is often significant vibration. Once the correct position of the weights is lost, the engine will vibrate and it can't easily be fixed.

I learned this the hard way on my 01, when a dealer tech botched the installation and created engine vibration that would knock your fillings loose. Two follow-on new clutch installs in a few hundred miles failed to resolve the vibration.

After a lot of contentious to and fro, Chevy dispatched several field engineers with specialized equipment to re-establish the balance of my engine by trial-and-error with different (1) flywheel orientations AND (2) balance pin weights and locations.

An ordeal, after which the balance was restored.

Moral of the story is to be sure the tech that does your clutch install, knows what he is doing on A C5 and that they have found ALL the relevant passages in the service manual.

Sorry for the long post. The episode still pisses me off.

Ranger


[Modified by Ranger, 9:06 PM 7/1/2004]
Old 07-01-2004, 09:53 PM
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Default Re: Help! Need to know if my clutch is out of balance? (camiv)

The vibration is at 2200 rpms with car in neutral and not moving. Then it vibrates at around 3000 rpms when in gear and cruising. you can drive through the vibration at anypoint....I mean give it more gas and the vibration goes away at different times. Interestingly the tuner who did my work in Chicago has totally backed away from help or compensation and tells me now that they no longer recommend Spec clutches as replacement for the stock clutch. This just sucks! :mad
The tuner is wrong. There are IMPLIED warranties that he as a professional businesman must be held to. You may have a case in this. I am not a lawyer, but you may want to have a consultation with one on this.

I doubt your flywheel runout is bad because the stock flywheel is steel and it's pretty hard to warp it, but if it wasn't torqued in the proper levels and sequence it could be warped. The other scenario is what I the others above believe has happened, and that is that the 'counter' balance point has been lost, moved, or changed.
There IS a way out of this because it is not vibrating badly. It takes a bit of work though. First you need to get the car up on jack stands or a lift. Drop your exhaust or headers to get access to the clutch inspection cover. Either remove the coil pack connectors or remove the battery negative terminal. Make sure the tranny is in neutral. Remove the inspection cover and number the bolts on the circumference holding the pressure plate to the flywheel 1 to 6 by turning it clockwise with your hands. Reconnect your exhaust or headers leaving the inspection plate off and the pressure plate exposed. Now put a washer under bolt #1. Reconnect your coil packs or battery. Start the car and feel for the vibration. If it is worse, remove the coil pacl conns or negative battery terminal and take the washer out and put it under bolt #2. Recconect the coil packs or battery and repeat this process until you have reduced it. It WILL reduce. Then when you have found the bolt that has it reduced, if not gone, try adding a second washer. If it gets worse, take the second washer off and grind some of the first washer. If it doesn't get better. Put another full washer back under the good bolt and try putting a washer under the bolt to the left, or the right. After it is very smooth take you exhaust back off, reinstall the inspection cover, and reinstall your exhaust. I have done this on my SPEC Stage 3 and it worked out quite well, but it is very tedious and takes a long time. By a pair of work gloves for turning the pressure plate. And give everything time too cool before you start pulling the exhaust. It gets REALLY HOT in seconds so be careful.


[Modified by ArKay99, 9:54 PM 7/1/2004]
Old 07-01-2004, 10:06 PM
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Default Re: Help! Need to know if my clutch is out of balance? (ArKay99)

This sounds a lot better than pulling whole clutch out and seeing if it is out of balance and then putting back in. Counter balance could still be off if thats my problem, it will still be there. If my clutch is balanced than your washer method should fix the vibration. I did not know when I converted my A4 to an M6 that this was an issue. The shop that did the work may not have known about this but I am looking into it. Why is it not clear whether or not you need to follow the weighting of the old flywheel with the new and whether or not the motor is zero balanced or balanced with the clutch assembly. Many posts but not clear answers. Thanks for your help!

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Old 07-02-2004, 01:00 AM
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Default Re: Help! Need to know if my clutch is out of balance? (camiv)

I did not know when I converted my A4 to an M6 that this was an issue. The shop that did the work may not have known about this but I am looking into it. Why is it not clear whether or not you need to follow the weighting of the old flywheel with the new and whether or not the motor is zero balanced or balanced with the clutch assembly. Many posts but not clear answers. Thanks for your help!
I believe Ranger above put it right. The manual is SUPPOSED to be correct, but it is not. There are a LOT of places where the info is wrong or doesn't coincide with info from another place. I have the 1999 Service Manual Set and they state that you are to move the weight, if any, from the old flywheel to the new flywheel and put it in the exact same place.
The LS1/LS6 engine as it comes stock is interanlly balanced to a point. Then they fine tune it afterwards if need be. I have been told the spec is 8 grams. If the engine is more than 8 grams off you will feel vibration. So what this means is, some cars are in spec and don't need post assembly balancing, and some do. If you are one of the 'lucky ones' you got a flywheel with a weight. Now what I have been told is the BEST way to do this, and I believe it is, Assemble the old flywheel/pp assmebly and the new flywheel/PP assembly. Take it to a balancer and have them balance the new FW/PP exactly like the old FW/PP. That way if your old flywheel was used as a 17 gram counterweight the new one will be set up just like the old one. If your old FW/PP had no weights and was zero balanced, then the new FW/PP should be zero balanced. BTW, don't take the manufacturers word the the stuff is zero balanced. Some are, but some aren't.
Old 07-02-2004, 04:07 PM
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Default Re: Help! Need to know if my clutch is out of balance? (camiv)

I've got a 2000 F body with a Stage 2 Spec clutch, I won't go through the whole story but will give the highlights. I had a new flywheel, pressure plate . and clutch disc installed about 6 months ago. Vibration was so bad at 1,100 RPM's I was afraid to drive the car. The mechanic who I trusted said he installed the assembly properly. I called Dave the president of Spec. He tried to tell me that I probably didn't transfer the weight from the OEM flywheel, that the original OEM flywheel was not neutrally balanced, consequently throughing the new assembly out of balance, on and on.

Eventually, he agreed that the fault had to lie in his assembly, he sent a new disc and pressure plate to my installer. He said that he personally would check the balance. Ater this install I and the mechanic still felt some vibration, but a this point I just let it ride.

After about two months I decided to have the tranny pulled for the third time. I had the balance checked on the flywheel, it was slightly off. The disc was OK. The pressure plate was off I don't know how many grams, but significantly. It was drilled out and balanced.

Finally my problems were over, ZERO vibration. It cost me three installs and balancing costs on my OEM flywheel and the new parts. I spent over $600 more than I should have, but I'm glad to have the problem resolved. Am I pissed off at Spec and Dave you better believe it. What do I think about the clutch, very happy. I've had no further issues and it grabs like it's unbelievable. Very little peddle pressure and minimal chatter.


the disc was OK
Old 07-02-2004, 06:33 PM
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Default Re: Help! Need to know if my clutch is out of balance? (bigdsz)

Not to be disrespectful of the helpful thoughts but I have no "old set-up" to move weights from. This was a conversion from A4 to MN6 so I need to know how to balance the whole set-up because I have been assured that the whole clutch assembly was zero balanced before install. I the figure its out of balance with motor and only the washer trick has been mentioned. Any other ideas to get motor in balance with clutch if clutch is zero balanced? remember, the vibration is fairly minor but most annoying! Thanks.


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