[Z06] C5 Z06 Nurburgring Lap times?
10-27-2007, 11:14 AM
#21
Melting Slicks
OK so does anyone have a time for an 01, 2, or 03. Im no expert, but I cant see the times being that different. Sure the changes would have improved the times, but I would think that we would be talking a few short seconds here (yes a few seconds is significant but not vastly so). Can we also assume that the cars tested at the ring were lowered on the stock bolts or is this factory set height? Seems to be a big difference in the handling of a car at the factory setting vs one that is lowerede only 3/4 to an inch on factory bolts. Anyone?
10-27-2007, 11:19 AM
#22
Melting Slicks
I'm pretty sure there are no manufacturer times ever published for the 01, 02, and 03 Z06 at the Nurburgring. The 04 model was the first one where I recall them using that famous benchmark.
10-27-2007, 11:24 AM
#23
Melting Slicks
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The 2005 C5 w/ Z51 package ran a 7:59 time, which is only 3 secs slower than the 2004 Z06 time. You can interpolate anywhere in between those 3 seconds if you want to split hairs like the guys above.
10-27-2007, 11:31 AM
#24
Safety Car
The shock change won't make much difference on a straight piece of road, but it will make a difference in some corners. Let's take Laguna Seca ..... it is a "power" track .... with as one person described it .... "a series of straightaways connected by corners". At Laguna Seca the one "corner" where you can feel a significant difference between the 04 shocks and the prior ones is the Corkscrew and the short run down into Turn 9, so the lap time difference between the shocks is probably "only" a second or so .... but add that up in, say, a 20 lap race and you have made a significant gain.
Take another track, Sears Point (Infinion), where you will feel the difference in the shocks in turns 2, 3A, the "Carousel" (6), and down through the esses (7 to 10).... I haven't compared my lap times/before after but I bet I picked up two or three seconds (maybe more) a lap with the 04 shocks.
So, yes, the shocks can make a noticeable difference IN THE RIGHT circumstances.
Also, using the above two tracks as an example, a car with an extra 100 HP is gonna be WAY faster at Laguna Seca because it is a HP track, lots of straight runs where HP makes a big difference (like the climb up the hill from turn 6 to the corkscrew ... almost a 200 foot gain in altitude on that run). BUT, a car with an extra 100 HP won't have much advantage (all else being equal) at Sears Point as it is a "technical" track, one where cornering is what it is all about. Yes, the extra 100 HP will get you up the hill faster through 2,3, etc., but so much of the track is cornering the percent difference in lap times will be no where near as big as at Laguna.
Take another track, Sears Point (Infinion), where you will feel the difference in the shocks in turns 2, 3A, the "Carousel" (6), and down through the esses (7 to 10).... I haven't compared my lap times/before after but I bet I picked up two or three seconds (maybe more) a lap with the 04 shocks.
So, yes, the shocks can make a noticeable difference IN THE RIGHT circumstances.
Also, using the above two tracks as an example, a car with an extra 100 HP is gonna be WAY faster at Laguna Seca because it is a HP track, lots of straight runs where HP makes a big difference (like the climb up the hill from turn 6 to the corkscrew ... almost a 200 foot gain in altitude on that run). BUT, a car with an extra 100 HP won't have much advantage (all else being equal) at Sears Point as it is a "technical" track, one where cornering is what it is all about. Yes, the extra 100 HP will get you up the hill faster through 2,3, etc., but so much of the track is cornering the percent difference in lap times will be no where near as big as at Laguna.
Last edited by BlackZ06; 10-27-2007 at 11:40 AM. Reason: Clean up a bad "insert"
10-27-2007, 11:53 AM
#25
Team Owner
10-27-2007, 01:28 PM
#26
Safety Car
Thread Starter
Please, think a little bit here.
2004 Z06 - 7:56
2006 C6 Z06, with 100 MORE HP, less weight, and a better suspension - 7:42.
That's only 14 seconds.
Once you are near the 8 sec mark, it takes alot to shave off time. I think it's safe to say that pretty much all of that 14 secs is due to the additional 100 HP.
So now we have the 02/03, which is essentially the same as an 04. Do you really think it's lap times would be any different with the same exact motor, HP, weight, spring rates, but a simple 10% change in damping rate? Of course not. I'll even step back to the 01 Z06. Even with 20 less HP, I'd bet it would still be close to the 8 sec mark with the same driver.
2004 Z06 - 7:56
2006 C6 Z06, with 100 MORE HP, less weight, and a better suspension - 7:42.
That's only 14 seconds.
Once you are near the 8 sec mark, it takes alot to shave off time. I think it's safe to say that pretty much all of that 14 secs is due to the additional 100 HP.
So now we have the 02/03, which is essentially the same as an 04. Do you really think it's lap times would be any different with the same exact motor, HP, weight, spring rates, but a simple 10% change in damping rate? Of course not. I'll even step back to the 01 Z06. Even with 20 less HP, I'd bet it would still be close to the 8 sec mark with the same driver.
10-27-2007, 04:03 PM
#27
Melting Slicks
I'd say there are a few more variables just to further compound the debate. When the cars were tested you also have to take into account weather conditions. Cold dry day, hot humid day, etc. It does cause some difference. My car is lot happier on a cool day with low humidity. So on tracks that are horsepower tracks there is some gain to be had.
All things being equal the difference between an 01-04 is probably negligible for 99% or more of us. Let's face it. The guys that did the test are professional racers with tons of seat time in Corvettes. They can probably feel the difference in a slight tweak of camber, toe, shock valving, slightly different bushings and all. We probably can't.
That aside I agree with BlackZ06. I went from 02 to 04 Z06 shocks only. Same tires, brakes, alignment, ride height. Even on the street I felt the difference. Hit a depression in the road on the highway and the 04 shocks respond quicker and the car settles faster. They do feel stiffer and the ride it is a tad more harsh. Other than that on the street they don't mean much. Get 04's, 06's, Bilsteins, or whatever you like.
Now on the track that difference in compression and rebound in the shock can be felt. The high speed hover as it is described was resolved in the 04 version. You feel that during rapid transitions. A good example is in the Esses. The car reacts quicker and stays planted. It inspires more driving confidence. The better compression and faster rebound helps in the depressions. There are some parts of the track where you want to drive in the depression because it keeps you on the preferred line. With the 02 shock you felt more dip and rise in the car. With the 04 version it is much less and happens quicker. It might only get you a 1/10 sec in that section. But it means carrying increased speed longer. That means faster lap times.
I went with the 04 simply because GM put all that effort into tuning them better specifically for our car. Does that mean a Bilstein Sport can't deliver equal lap times. Nope. I've run Bilstein HD and Sport on a C4. I liked the Sports better. I haven't seen much data from Bilstein to show that they improved the cars handling at all. If there is a white paper or some info to back it up I'd love to see it. I'm sure GM's change from Bilstein to Sachs was originally nothing more than $$$ in the deal.
We're pretty much splitting hairs here for the majority of us.
All things being equal the difference between an 01-04 is probably negligible for 99% or more of us. Let's face it. The guys that did the test are professional racers with tons of seat time in Corvettes. They can probably feel the difference in a slight tweak of camber, toe, shock valving, slightly different bushings and all. We probably can't.
That aside I agree with BlackZ06. I went from 02 to 04 Z06 shocks only. Same tires, brakes, alignment, ride height. Even on the street I felt the difference. Hit a depression in the road on the highway and the 04 shocks respond quicker and the car settles faster. They do feel stiffer and the ride it is a tad more harsh. Other than that on the street they don't mean much. Get 04's, 06's, Bilsteins, or whatever you like.
Now on the track that difference in compression and rebound in the shock can be felt. The high speed hover as it is described was resolved in the 04 version. You feel that during rapid transitions. A good example is in the Esses. The car reacts quicker and stays planted. It inspires more driving confidence. The better compression and faster rebound helps in the depressions. There are some parts of the track where you want to drive in the depression because it keeps you on the preferred line. With the 02 shock you felt more dip and rise in the car. With the 04 version it is much less and happens quicker. It might only get you a 1/10 sec in that section. But it means carrying increased speed longer. That means faster lap times.
I went with the 04 simply because GM put all that effort into tuning them better specifically for our car. Does that mean a Bilstein Sport can't deliver equal lap times. Nope. I've run Bilstein HD and Sport on a C4. I liked the Sports better. I haven't seen much data from Bilstein to show that they improved the cars handling at all. If there is a white paper or some info to back it up I'd love to see it. I'm sure GM's change from Bilstein to Sachs was originally nothing more than $$$ in the deal.
We're pretty much splitting hairs here for the majority of us.
10-27-2007, 04:24 PM
#28
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In racing, 14 seconds is more like 14 minutes! 
That C6 Z06 is a BEAST!! 
I have to agree with the above posts, the 02 and 03 Z06 would be very close to an 04 Z06 and the difference would be very negligible at best.
Does anyone know who drove the C5 Z06 on the Nurburgring? The driver for the C6 Z06 was a Factory Corvette Racing driver. It would be interesting to see Jan Magnuson take the C5 Z06 on the 'Ring and maybe post an even faster time, just a thought.
Patrick
That C6 Z06 is a BEAST!! I have to agree with the above posts, the 02 and 03 Z06 would be very close to an 04 Z06 and the difference would be very negligible at best.
Does anyone know who drove the C5 Z06 on the Nurburgring? The driver for the C6 Z06 was a Factory Corvette Racing driver. It would be interesting to see Jan Magnuson take the C5 Z06 on the 'Ring and maybe post an even faster time, just a thought.
Patrick
Last edited by ACR Z06; 10-27-2007 at 04:26 PM.
10-27-2007, 06:04 PM
#29
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Let me guess, the Z16 will be even faster than a C6 Z06 because the hood is 10 lbs lighter. 
Without copying and pasting from wikipedia or corvetteactioncenter, can tell you that there would not be a measurable difference at 'The Ring' between an 02/03 and 04 Z06 because the shocks were tuned 10% stiffer.
Please, think a little bit here.
2004 Z06 - 7:56
2006 C6 Z06, with 100 MORE HP, less weight, and a better suspension - 7:42.
That's only 14 seconds.
Once you are near the 8 sec mark, it takes alot to shave off time. I think it's safe to say that pretty much all of that 14 secs is due to the additional 100 HP.
So now we have the 02/03, which is essentially the same as an 04. Do you really think it's lap times would be any different with the same exact motor, HP, weight, spring rates, but a simple 10% change in damping rate? Of course not. I'll even step back to the 01 Z06. Even with 20 less HP, I'd bet it would still be close to the 8 sec mark with the same driver.
Maybe I'll put '04 Z06 shocks on my old Mustang and pull 10-sec quarter mile times since they seem to be the epitome of supercar performance.
Without copying and pasting from wikipedia or corvetteactioncenter, can tell you that there would not be a measurable difference at 'The Ring' between an 02/03 and 04 Z06 because the shocks were tuned 10% stiffer.
Please, think a little bit here.
2004 Z06 - 7:56
2006 C6 Z06, with 100 MORE HP, less weight, and a better suspension - 7:42.
That's only 14 seconds.
Once you are near the 8 sec mark, it takes alot to shave off time. I think it's safe to say that pretty much all of that 14 secs is due to the additional 100 HP.
So now we have the 02/03, which is essentially the same as an 04. Do you really think it's lap times would be any different with the same exact motor, HP, weight, spring rates, but a simple 10% change in damping rate? Of course not. I'll even step back to the 01 Z06. Even with 20 less HP, I'd bet it would still be close to the 8 sec mark with the same driver.
Maybe I'll put '04 Z06 shocks on my old Mustang and pull 10-sec quarter mile times since they seem to be the epitome of supercar performance.
10-27-2007, 06:24 PM
#30
Melting Slicks
I believe on the 04 Z06 that Ron Fellows drove it and the suspension tuning was based on his driving and feedback. I'm sure all the sensors they had hooked up showed he cut time off his run with the new valving. But I've never seen a stated time improvement on the Ring from the the 03 to 04.
02-04 should be faster on the Ring simply due to horsepower. The suspension bits help more. The Z06 pad compound was also changed some but I forget which year.
02-04 should be faster on the Ring simply due to horsepower. The suspension bits help more. The Z06 pad compound was also changed some but I forget which year.
10-27-2007, 07:27 PM
#31
Melting Slicks
Pretty sure that the C6 cars (both Z and Z51) were on runcraps, while the 04 Z is on real tires. That makes a big difference. No, I don't believe an early C6Z51 is as fast around the track as an 04Z, but they are pretty close. And for sure the C6Z is faster. Also note what happened when Car and Driver did their lightning lap comparing the slight shock change in the C6Z from 06 to 07 model years. It was a bunch of seconds in track time just from that one small shock change.
Shocks make a big difference on the track, anybody who says they don't hasn't spent any time on the track or tuning shocks.
There are so many variables (alignment, tires, time of day, track conditons, phase of the moon) that to try to compare track times for two different cars is pretty much meaningless.
Shocks make a big difference on the track, anybody who says they don't hasn't spent any time on the track or tuning shocks.
There are so many variables (alignment, tires, time of day, track conditons, phase of the moon) that to try to compare track times for two different cars is pretty much meaningless.
10-27-2007, 07:34 PM
#32
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I believe on the 04 Z06 that Ron Fellows drove it and the suspension tuning was based on his driving and feedback. I'm sure all the sensors they had hooked up showed he cut time off his run with the new valving. But I've never seen a stated time improvement on the Ring from the the 03 to 04.
02-04 should be faster on the Ring simply due to horsepower. The suspension bits help more. The Z06 pad compound was also changed some but I forget which year.
02-04 should be faster on the Ring simply due to horsepower. The suspension bits help more. The Z06 pad compound was also changed some but I forget which year.
Well, i guess you learn something new everyday
. Now i can go around telling people Ron Fellows drove the 04 Z06 on a 7:56 lap around the 'Ring (like anyone would care, lol).
Last edited by ACR Z06; 10-27-2007 at 09:59 PM.
10-27-2007, 11:42 PM
#33
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Here's the change that they did in 02 out of the corvette black book. Other Z06 upgrades included revised rear shock absorber valving for better traction and smoother ride over rough surfaces, improved clutch, thicker front anti-sway bar, and a modified steering rack that reduced turning radius by about two feet. Z06 and export models also had new front brake pad composition for reduced fade and increased durability. I don't think there's that much different between the 02,03,and 04.
01-01-2012, 08:28 AM
#34
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I know it's an old thread, 
but to continue the discussion...
The lap time posted for 04 C5Z is 7min 56 seconds, I guess this time is for a stock car, and I would be interested to know how a bolt on C5Z would perform in the same conditions?
Thanks in advance, and Happy New Year!
but to continue the discussion...The lap time posted for 04 C5Z is 7min 56 seconds, I guess this time is for a stock car, and I would be interested to know how a bolt on C5Z would perform in the same conditions?
Thanks in advance, and Happy New Year!
01-01-2012, 09:01 AM
#35
Drifting
I know it's an old thread, but to continue the discussion...
The lap time posted for 04 C5Z is 7min 56 seconds, I guess this time is for a stock car, and I would be interested to know how a bolt on C5Z would perform in the same conditions?
Thanks in advance, and Happy New Year!
but to continue the discussion...The lap time posted for 04 C5Z is 7min 56 seconds, I guess this time is for a stock car, and I would be interested to know how a bolt on C5Z would perform in the same conditions?
Thanks in advance, and Happy New Year!
01-01-2012, 12:42 PM
#36
Melting Slicks
I know it's an old thread, but to continue the discussion...
The lap time posted for 04 C5Z is 7min 56 seconds, I guess this time is for a stock car, and I would be interested to know how a bolt on C5Z would perform in the same conditions?
Thanks in advance, and Happy New Year!
but to continue the discussion...The lap time posted for 04 C5Z is 7min 56 seconds, I guess this time is for a stock car, and I would be interested to know how a bolt on C5Z would perform in the same conditions?
Thanks in advance, and Happy New Year!
01-01-2012, 01:54 PM
#37
Team Owner
01-02-2012, 05:14 AM
#38
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Thanks for your thoughts, kind of as I expected.
I see the ring has two times (& different drivers) for the C6Z, one being 7.43 & the other 7.49 - (6 seconds shows what a difference the driver & conditions can make(!).
Now I know a modded C5Z isn't going to match a stock C6Z, but I wonder if it's possible that a C5Z with mods might do it in 7.50?
All hyperthetical of course
I see the ring has two times (& different drivers) for the C6Z, one being 7.43 & the other 7.49 - (6 seconds shows what a difference the driver & conditions can make(!).
Now I know a modded C5Z isn't going to match a stock C6Z, but I wonder if it's possible that a C5Z with mods might do it in 7.50?
All hyperthetical of course
01-02-2012, 07:54 AM
#39
I believe the 7:56 time for C5Z was based on the time shown in this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=finiSeRup2k
Some earlier versions of the Wiki had a link to this vid IIRC.
The user who posted the video says in the comments:
"No, it is not factory stock. It has stiffer suspension (VP&P monoleaf, Bilstein Sport, T1 Swaybars) and Toyo R888 R-tires. Better breathing and a hotter cam gives around 50 more hp. NO A/C, Braille racing battery and a few items from the interior removed, makes it 100 lbs lighter. Yes, it is easy to make a C5 fast."
So the car is *not* stock. I really doubt that anybody runs this type of suspension on a street-driven car. Notice also that he has no airbag, etc. It is worth noting that this was a BTG lap, so it is the "official" Ring lap that is quoted for all cars.
Also, and most importantly, this was a Track Day, which means that the rules for passing, etc. are different than on Public Days but notice that there is traffic. An "official" best effort Ring lap will always be without traffic. Compare, for example, the difference in lap times and speeds on road courses for Qualifying vs. Race conditions. So that definitely slowed his modded (dare I say Race Ready?) car down.
That said, I do believe a stock '04 C5Z is capable of under 8 minutes under ideal conditions (i.e. the ones the manufacturer will wait for in order to show off the car). I've never seen a video of one doing so, however.
I have had my own '02 C5Z out on the Ring several times, as I live about an hour away. I am not a qualified race driver, etc. but I do enjoy driving the car hard. So I'm probably like 99% of Z06 owners/drivers. My thoughts:
- I ran the car just after I got it, it was stock except for catbacks and PS2 tires. It really ran well on the track. I was there on a public day and didn't have much competition. The only thing that really felt stressed in the car were the brakes after a couple of laps, as they started to get a bit fadey. I backed off at that point as I had nothing to prove. The tires needed some heat in them to really bite hard.
- I then ran the car on the Ring after doing intake/headers/valve springs/dyno tune/C6Z shifter. Was making 381whp at that point. The car definitely felt faster. Also, I had changed the stock shocks for Bilstein Sports and threw a harness bar and 5-points in. Believe it or not the 5-point belts made the biggest difference as I could stay in the seat without deathgripping the wheel or bruising my knees against the door or tunnel. The shocks really felt better, the car was flatter and more stable at speed. The increased power was useful out of turns but not as much as the shocks or racing belts. There are a few straights where you can run all out but my feeling is that you are limited in the C5Z not by your ability to go but your ability to slow down in time to avoid kissing the Armco. Look around and you can see that most of the C5Zs that get raced have big brake kits first and foremost.
I'd love to hear from anybody else who has actually had their C5Z (or anything else) on the Ring and compare notes.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=finiSeRup2k
Some earlier versions of the Wiki had a link to this vid IIRC.
The user who posted the video says in the comments:
"No, it is not factory stock. It has stiffer suspension (VP&P monoleaf, Bilstein Sport, T1 Swaybars) and Toyo R888 R-tires. Better breathing and a hotter cam gives around 50 more hp. NO A/C, Braille racing battery and a few items from the interior removed, makes it 100 lbs lighter. Yes, it is easy to make a C5 fast."
So the car is *not* stock. I really doubt that anybody runs this type of suspension on a street-driven car. Notice also that he has no airbag, etc. It is worth noting that this was a BTG lap, so it is the "official" Ring lap that is quoted for all cars.
Also, and most importantly, this was a Track Day, which means that the rules for passing, etc. are different than on Public Days but notice that there is traffic. An "official" best effort Ring lap will always be without traffic. Compare, for example, the difference in lap times and speeds on road courses for Qualifying vs. Race conditions. So that definitely slowed his modded (dare I say Race Ready?) car down.
That said, I do believe a stock '04 C5Z is capable of under 8 minutes under ideal conditions (i.e. the ones the manufacturer will wait for in order to show off the car). I've never seen a video of one doing so, however.
I have had my own '02 C5Z out on the Ring several times, as I live about an hour away. I am not a qualified race driver, etc. but I do enjoy driving the car hard. So I'm probably like 99% of Z06 owners/drivers. My thoughts:
- I ran the car just after I got it, it was stock except for catbacks and PS2 tires. It really ran well on the track. I was there on a public day and didn't have much competition. The only thing that really felt stressed in the car were the brakes after a couple of laps, as they started to get a bit fadey. I backed off at that point as I had nothing to prove. The tires needed some heat in them to really bite hard.
- I then ran the car on the Ring after doing intake/headers/valve springs/dyno tune/C6Z shifter. Was making 381whp at that point. The car definitely felt faster. Also, I had changed the stock shocks for Bilstein Sports and threw a harness bar and 5-points in. Believe it or not the 5-point belts made the biggest difference as I could stay in the seat without deathgripping the wheel or bruising my knees against the door or tunnel. The shocks really felt better, the car was flatter and more stable at speed. The increased power was useful out of turns but not as much as the shocks or racing belts. There are a few straights where you can run all out but my feeling is that you are limited in the C5Z not by your ability to go but your ability to slow down in time to avoid kissing the Armco. Look around and you can see that most of the C5Zs that get raced have big brake kits first and foremost.
I'd love to hear from anybody else who has actually had their C5Z (or anything else) on the Ring and compare notes.
01-02-2012, 08:00 AM
#40
The answer is "it depends", meaning of course it depends how good the driver is of course. If a bolt on C5Z would give about 40-45 rwhp gain over the stock example (apologies if my memory of what bolt-on gives is off), then I do think that quite a few seconds would be on offer at a huge track like that. The main reason why is that there are no losses in low end horsepower or torque with a setup like that, and only mid range and top end power/torque advantages. There are some sizable straightaways on the Nurburgring where that kind of setup could really make up some time against the stock car.
Watch the video in my comment above of the C5Z lapping and count how much time he spends flat out on straights vs. cornering/braking.
Of course a fast driver in a C5Z will beat a slow driver in a C6Z on the Ring anyday. I've watched it happen...
