[Z06] Highest hp stock cam LS6....who has pushed the limits?
02-22-2011, 06:39 PM
#21
Burning Brakes
[QUOTE=arctic 92;1576866356]Enough with the pictures and inflamatory crap. I'm trying to have a discussion.
For inflamation , try Advil
You can try and reach your horsepower goals, and if you can congrats , but it will be almost impossible to match the torque of the ls-7, which it has from it`s displacement. Some of my friends have 460 -475 hp c5 346 , but the ls-7 can still accell faster.
For inflamation , try Advil
You can try and reach your horsepower goals, and if you can congrats , but it will be almost impossible to match the torque of the ls-7, which it has from it`s displacement. Some of my friends have 460 -475 hp c5 346 , but the ls-7 can still accell faster.
02-22-2011, 10:28 PM
#22
Burning Brakes
Do you plan to keep the stock LS6 intake? I'm going for at least 405rwhp will all bolt on's and no cam. Plan to use ARH 1 7/8, UDP, Fast 90/90, AFE intake, and possibly throw on a Cometic gasket on the stock heads. I'm going to check the price on a lighter flywheel right now.
02-22-2011, 10:43 PM
#23
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
I achieved those numbers with certain 4cyl engines through a TON of work...that's how.
There are essentially four core principles which increase engine output:
Increase the rpm at which peak hp is achieved
Increase BMEP
Increase displacement
Increase VE
There's many ways to work with these engines aside from a cam change. I've done it. I've built engines of smaller displacement for many years. Yes, there are different approaches, but essentially yes...your still dealing with a gasoline power 4 cycle engine.
Essentially my curiosity is, what will you see if you work the heads and intake beyond the typical breathing mods. I have yet to see someone who's done it, so I'm simply curious how far you'll get while dictated by the stock cam.
There are essentially four core principles which increase engine output:
Increase the rpm at which peak hp is achieved
Increase BMEP
Increase displacement
Increase VE
There's many ways to work with these engines aside from a cam change. I've done it. I've built engines of smaller displacement for many years. Yes, there are different approaches, but essentially yes...your still dealing with a gasoline power 4 cycle engine.
Essentially my curiosity is, what will you see if you work the heads and intake beyond the typical breathing mods. I have yet to see someone who's done it, so I'm simply curious how far you'll get while dictated by the stock cam.
02-23-2011, 01:10 AM
#25
I may not be a pro engine builder but I do know enough about physics to know that power = work / time. My point is that power is dependant of RPMs, but it is also dependant of torque. Specifically, where the engine makes its torque. You know as well as I know that the torque curve is basically drawn by the cam. Therefore, a higher redline wont necesarily result in a higher peak horsepower if the torque curve is dropping to rapidly at those higher RPMs. For example, the C6Z I cited earlier made its peak horsepower at 6200 RPMs then dropped off from there to its 7k redline.
On the other hand the ls6 very well could have more left in it up top. Maybe you have already considered all of this. In my mind, if you are going to limit yourself to the stock cam, you may as well plan on limiting yourself to the stock RPM range. Otherwise, dont you think GM would have given it a higher redline from the factory?
Please correct me if Im wrong! I am always open to learn something new!
On the other hand the ls6 very well could have more left in it up top. Maybe you have already considered all of this. In my mind, if you are going to limit yourself to the stock cam, you may as well plan on limiting yourself to the stock RPM range. Otherwise, dont you think GM would have given it a higher redline from the factory?
Please correct me if Im wrong! I am always open to learn something new!
Last edited by jake07Z06; 02-23-2011 at 01:13 AM.
02-23-2011, 07:18 AM
#26
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With the 347 LS6 block , but a great blue printed and balance built race engine. I have seen mid 500 rwhp.
Use the GM Cup cam, and GM Cup 243 heads, with the LS6 / TPiS 90 intake.
Great engine, but measured in hours of use, not miles
Use the GM Cup cam, and GM Cup 243 heads, with the LS6 / TPiS 90 intake.
Great engine, but measured in hours of use, not miles
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99 Black Bird TA (08-19-2022)
02-23-2011, 10:08 AM
#27
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Always felt intrigued by the Cup cam although there are supposedly much better options in the aftermarket.
02-23-2011, 12:16 PM
#28
Drifting
I think this thread has backed up the approach that most people take when searching for more hp out of an ls6. Sure, you can put in all the time in the world to eek out every hp out of the stock cam motor but why. Once you get past the bolt on stage you are talking about working the heads, bottom end, etc. when you can go straight to the cam and add 50rwhp. Doesn't seem real cost effective for people that don't own a dyno.
02-23-2011, 12:38 PM
#29
Race Director
Listen, I've dealt with people like you for years. You sound like someone who just wants to argue because you think you know it all. I heard your opinion....I disagree with it.
The fact you conclude that it's not possible based upon...nothing... is interesting. My "feeling" based upon my experience is that it's certainly possible. My desire is to do it on a stock grind. I agree that some increase in duration, lift and ramp rate can still be manageable in terms of driveability, my point is though, what is possible without a cam change...period.
I've now found an LS6 with stock cam making 414whp peak on a dyno that shows C6Z's at 438whp stock. His mods still leave room to go further, but he's the highest I've found thus far. I believe it can be done...at least in terms of PEAK whp.
In addition, I own a dyno and have tuned EMS for years. I can commit MUCH more time to extracting as much power as possible with no worries about the bill that needs paid. I've also built custom headers for nearly a decade. I can commit much more time to building a one off set that is built specifically for the application. There are many things that are possible that can be improved on the LS6 without going straight to a cam change. It just comes down to money and desire to find out. I feel some people would be interested in the option were it proven possible.
The fact you conclude that it's not possible based upon...nothing... is interesting. My "feeling" based upon my experience is that it's certainly possible. My desire is to do it on a stock grind. I agree that some increase in duration, lift and ramp rate can still be manageable in terms of driveability, my point is though, what is possible without a cam change...period.
I've now found an LS6 with stock cam making 414whp peak on a dyno that shows C6Z's at 438whp stock. His mods still leave room to go further, but he's the highest I've found thus far. I believe it can be done...at least in terms of PEAK whp.
In addition, I own a dyno and have tuned EMS for years. I can commit MUCH more time to extracting as much power as possible with no worries about the bill that needs paid. I've also built custom headers for nearly a decade. I can commit much more time to building a one off set that is built specifically for the application. There are many things that are possible that can be improved on the LS6 without going straight to a cam change. It just comes down to money and desire to find out. I feel some people would be interested in the option were it proven possible.
02-23-2011, 10:08 PM
#30
Racer
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NA 4cyl engines have had VE's above 100% stock for years, just take a look at the s2k engines.
I applaud you for your work and wish you the best, I hope you see your goals, and think you have a very unique method planned. I enjoy a challange and I like the fact that you aren't backing down from this one.
Keep us in the loop on your progress. I too have used a land and sea dyno, but ours wasn't good for more than a 100 hp or so. I guess you have a larger version.
At any rate, good luck with your build. If / when I decide to make that power, I feel I will be going with a tried and true method. GM did what they felt was prudent for the LS6 to make power reliably, I don't want to tear down and rebuild often. What good is every day drive-ability if you have it in a rebuild process every few months?
I applaud you for your work and wish you the best, I hope you see your goals, and think you have a very unique method planned. I enjoy a challange and I like the fact that you aren't backing down from this one.
Keep us in the loop on your progress. I too have used a land and sea dyno, but ours wasn't good for more than a 100 hp or so. I guess you have a larger version.
At any rate, good luck with your build. If / when I decide to make that power, I feel I will be going with a tried and true method. GM did what they felt was prudent for the LS6 to make power reliably, I don't want to tear down and rebuild often. What good is every day drive-ability if you have it in a rebuild process every few months?
02-23-2011, 11:15 PM
#31
Melting Slicks
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My C5Z put down 462/400 with just cam only stock Intake manifold and stock 243 heads (untouched). The printer at Quality Motorsports had a mind of its own that day and on the highest run it did not print the TQ just the HP. But out of 5 pulls the car was a solid 453-462hp and 395-400tq.
Last edited by thechosenone; 02-23-2011 at 11:18 PM.
cool, so do it already and stfu.
02-24-2011, 12:59 AM
#33
Melting Slicks
I'm really surprised at the amount of flak the OP is getting on this thread. His goal to push the limits on the stock cam is definitely not mainstream, but seems like an interesting challenge for someone with the time and means to go down that road. Personally, I don't think 450 hp at the wheels is possible, but ~420whp could certainly be done. Who knows what he knows and what he'll be able to hit if he has the background and ability he's claiming, we might all be in for a surprise, as most others choose the path of most hp/effort or money.
02-24-2011, 06:39 AM
#34
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88958622
LS6 SWGT 60.9 chamber
Lift Intake Exhaust
0.200 150 117
0.300 225 168
0.400 273 202
0.500 291 217
0.550 304 221
0.600 311 222
notice they have over 300 flow at only a .550 cam lift.
GM- Grand am cup 88958606
239/251 570/570 106
the Cup heads did have their problems, as the runners were ported so much the aluminum was so thin, it could be broken very easily.
the Cup heads are still made by LPE as all the Grand Am Daytona Prototypes use these heads and cam combo.
Racing rules dictate that he "243" and part number "88958622" be stamped on the heads for use in the races.
these engines are measured in hours of use, not millage. 2 to 3 races or 12 to 16 hours of use before they would blow up. build cost in the $25-30K range per engine
Last edited by AU N EGL; 02-24-2011 at 06:54 AM.
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99 Black Bird TA (08-19-2022)
02-24-2011, 07:20 AM
#35
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If you think you can do it then do it! There are certainly some things that could be optimized... but I dont think you are going to see the results you are looking for.
As was said before though... you are going to be the only one drinking the juice.
It doesnt really make sense for anyone ELSE to put that kind of money into their car when they can see BETTER results from swapping a cam and have drivability that is near identical to stock. Its just not a cost effective approach.
Additionally your whole higher RPM = higher HP isnt really true. These engines done breath at higher RPMS. Maybe the 4 cylinder engines you were working on could benifit from that type of thinking but this is a different ball game. We dont make power beyond 6500 RPM with these engines... (not with a stock cam anyway).
Save yourself the time and money... Take the pill everyone else is taking and buy a cam.
As was said before though... you are going to be the only one drinking the juice.
It doesnt really make sense for anyone ELSE to put that kind of money into their car when they can see BETTER results from swapping a cam and have drivability that is near identical to stock. Its just not a cost effective approach.
Additionally your whole higher RPM = higher HP isnt really true. These engines done breath at higher RPMS. Maybe the 4 cylinder engines you were working on could benifit from that type of thinking but this is a different ball game. We dont make power beyond 6500 RPM with these engines... (not with a stock cam anyway).
Save yourself the time and money... Take the pill everyone else is taking and buy a cam.
02-24-2011, 07:25 AM
#36
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the LS6 drive train was designed to run 100 hours at 6900 rpms. A few guys have tuned the engine to run up to 7200 rpms. Still Does not produce any more power.
02-24-2011, 09:53 AM
#37
Instructor
An engines power curve is determined by the Camshaft but there are many other factors that determine power. These are:
Volumetric Effeciency
Heat Loss to the Coolant and Oil (How much of the energy is transmitted to work)
Rotational Friction
Compression Ratio
Mixture Motion, Swirl and Tumble (Burns most or all of the fuel)
Pumping losses (On the intake and exhaust side at WOT)
There may be a few others I am missing. But it's true without changing the cam specs, these items can be optimized. I guess that is what the Stock class drag racers have been doing for years. For example, 4 valve heads give higher VE generally due to more flow area and higher flow velocity. Roller cams, thinner rings, coated bearings, thermal coated pistons, knife edged cranks, dry sump oiling systems, yada yada, you get the picture. How much do you want to spend... I wonder if anyone is racing a Stock Class LS6 Corvette on the National Level, and how much power are they making? They should be on the cutting edge of what can be done.
Paul
Volumetric Effeciency
Heat Loss to the Coolant and Oil (How much of the energy is transmitted to work)
Rotational Friction
Compression Ratio
Mixture Motion, Swirl and Tumble (Burns most or all of the fuel)
Pumping losses (On the intake and exhaust side at WOT)
There may be a few others I am missing. But it's true without changing the cam specs, these items can be optimized. I guess that is what the Stock class drag racers have been doing for years. For example, 4 valve heads give higher VE generally due to more flow area and higher flow velocity. Roller cams, thinner rings, coated bearings, thermal coated pistons, knife edged cranks, dry sump oiling systems, yada yada, you get the picture. How much do you want to spend... I wonder if anyone is racing a Stock Class LS6 Corvette on the National Level, and how much power are they making? They should be on the cutting edge of what can be done.
Paul
02-24-2011, 10:21 AM
#38
Team Owner
The idea is supposed to be stock drivability including the ability to happily run alone in 6th gear at 40mph. Great. Oops, we are talking about increasing CR. Explain how you are going to have stock drivability in 6th gear at 40mph with more compression? At sea level the engine is already right on the verge of knocking at all times in this condition with premium pump gas. Are you going to run around on race gas all the time? 
The fact is people are not going with the head porting, intake, TB path because it's known to provide very little returns for the money on a stock engine. It causes drivability issues and makes little power instead of making tons of power without them.
The fact is people are not going with the head porting, intake, TB path because it's known to provide very little returns for the money on a stock engine. It causes drivability issues and makes little power instead of making tons of power without them.
Last edited by ptindall; 02-24-2011 at 10:25 AM.
02-24-2011, 11:23 AM
#39
Le Mans Master
1) I've built 2.0 liter engines that made 298chp n/a (I'll provide engine dyno sheets...VE way beyond 100%), I will not believe that an LS6 can't make 505chp with that cam. This is a production motor with 405chp, built on a mass scale. There are inherent losses just due to that fact. It's clear people are able to find an additional 50-60hp with just basic breathing mods. There are still plenty of avenues to go beyond that. Headwork/intake manifold modifications are a piece of that equation that can yield a lot of additional power.
2) I understand dyno's are tuning tools...I own one (Land and Sea dynomite). It's as simple as running a C6Z on the dyno to establish a comparison.
3) If noone has done it, then how can you guys come in with some confidence to say "no, not possible". It's 100% possible, it just comes down to how much one would spend to avoid putting in a cam.
I am not going to make theoretical conclusions until I find that someone has done intake/header/exhaust/headwork/intake mani/tb/tune and shown some figures. If noone has done it that can be located, then I guess I get to find out.
Every genre I've ever been involved in had people who just wanted to either stick to stock bottom ends, stock turbo's, stock trannies or some other guideline. I feel someone here has to have "been that guy" but maybe not. I like to push boundaries, and when people say something can't be done, it honestly just makes me want to find out more.
You have a right to your own opinion though. If we load up this thread with "no's" then I guess it'll make for an interesting finale.
2) I understand dyno's are tuning tools...I own one (Land and Sea dynomite). It's as simple as running a C6Z on the dyno to establish a comparison.
3) If noone has done it, then how can you guys come in with some confidence to say "no, not possible". It's 100% possible, it just comes down to how much one would spend to avoid putting in a cam.
I am not going to make theoretical conclusions until I find that someone has done intake/header/exhaust/headwork/intake mani/tb/tune and shown some figures. If noone has done it that can be located, then I guess I get to find out.
Every genre I've ever been involved in had people who just wanted to either stick to stock bottom ends, stock turbo's, stock trannies or some other guideline. I feel someone here has to have "been that guy" but maybe not. I like to push boundaries, and when people say something can't be done, it honestly just makes me want to find out more.
You have a right to your own opinion though. If we load up this thread with "no's" then I guess it'll make for an interesting finale.
1) up compression (say 15:1) and run race gas.
2) use max vacuum on the crankcase to remove oil spray losses from the crank, and use dry sump.
3) from there you're on your own..........but it's a start
02-24-2011, 11:24 AM
#40
Burning Brakes
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[QUOTE=KLR Z;1576879665]My C5Z put down 462/400 with just cam only stock Intake manifold and stock 243 heads (untouched). The printer at Quality Motorsports had a mind of its own that day and on the highest run it did not print the TQ just the HP. But out of 5 pulls the car was a solid 453-462hp and 395-400tq.
I think the dyno had a mind of its own!!!!!!!
Time for it to be recalibrated
Steve
I think the dyno had a mind of its own!!!!!!!
Time for it to be recalibrated
Steve