[Z06] Is 570 RWHP NA Possible?
03-06-2016, 08:51 AM
#101
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St. Jude Donor '05
There are many cars with nice dyno sheets that are pigs at the track if one has spent even a smallish amount of time around the track they already know that but the internet says well, you know the drill.
570rwhp and reliable/streetable from a 346...good luck!
Lsx engines are a nice step up from the Gen 1 stuff but they arent magic
CI is Ci..
at a point you need a larger valve...which means bigger bore so on and so forth.
Track times tell all really dont hold much stock in dynos other than a measuring/tuning tool if you use the same one.
know that a good portion of guys who are going fast arent telling you everything
Last edited by cv67; 03-06-2016 at 09:36 AM.
03-06-2016, 01:57 PM
#102
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Nonetheless a dyno chart provides information on the power unit of where and how much. Different dynos read different, we've all seen that. We know there are many more factors that contribute to ET's other than motors so you're 100% correct that power numbers are not correlated in a linear fashion with track times...far from it. However dynos do provide a benchmark of which mods help and how much, provided you use the same dyno for your measurements to measure delta between mods going up-down-staying same and where it occurs. Driver, clutch, flywheel, converter tires, suspension, track prep, air density, temps, etc. contribute to ET's making them a challenge. A strong power curve with big number on dyno is very complex achievement as well. A stellar motor combined with optimized intangibles above and you'll have stellar ET's. I find this thread intriguing and believe there are many elements when optimized could put down stellar numbers on a 346....I wish I had the coin at present to be the "poster child" to make a run at it.
With that being said there's not a professional race team anywhere that doesn't use a dyno for benchmarking and measurement.
With that being said there's not a professional race team anywhere that doesn't use a dyno for benchmarking and measurement.
03-06-2016, 08:15 PM
#103
Le Mans Master
Thread Starter
There are many cars with nice dyno sheets that are pigs at the track if one has spent even a smallish amount of time around the track they already know that but the internet says well, you know the drill.
570rwhp and reliable/streetable from a 346...good luck!
Lsx engines are a nice step up from the Gen 1 stuff but they arent magic
CI is Ci..
at a point you need a larger valve...which means bigger bore so on and so forth.
Track times tell all really dont hold much stock in dynos other than a measuring/tuning tool if you use the same one.
know that a good portion of guys who are going fast arent telling you everything
Now I see a few people open their minds to the possibility that 570 could be reached even with a plastic manifold.
Like in all sports it takes a few ambitious pioneers to push the envelope in order to set records that most thought could never be achieved.
And we're just talking silly peak dyno numbers which is never the goal for the people on top of the performance game. Imagine is someone who knows their stuff really tried.
A little food for though for those who live and die by traps speed as an indicator of power. How many of the hundreds of 600+whp H/C c6z's are trapping over 140mph? My guess is a small percentage.
If a H/C c5Z can trap 140+ then how is it not making close to 550whp?
Driver error plays a role here but there's enough substance to draw some conclusions along with all the other data some of us have gathered.
03-06-2016, 08:24 PM
#104
Le Mans Master
Thread Starter
Nonetheless a dyno chart provides information on the power unit of where and how much. Different dynos read different, we've all seen that. We know there are many more factors that contribute to ET's other than motors so you're 100% correct that power numbers are not correlated in a linear fashion with track times...far from it. However dynos do provide a benchmark of which mods help and how much, provided you use the same dyno for your measurements to measure delta between mods going up-down-staying same and where it occurs. Driver, clutch, flywheel, converter tires, suspension, track prep, air density, temps, etc. contribute to ET's making them a challenge. A strong power curve with big number on dyno is very complex achievement as well. A stellar motor combined with optimized intangibles above and you'll have stellar ET's. I find this thread intriguing and believe there are many elements when optimized could put down stellar numbers on a 346....I wish I had the coin at present to be the "poster child" to make a run at it.
With that being said there's not a professional race team anywhere that doesn't use a dyno for benchmarking and measurement.
With that being said there's not a professional race team anywhere that doesn't use a dyno for benchmarking and measurement.
I really don't have the time or energy to show concrete proof but from my perspective I'm only 50 whp away without heads, ported manifold, and a full point of compression and that's thru 4.10 gears and a 45lb clutch. If we see 560whp thru 4.10's that's close to 575whp with stock gears. How much more hp can you gain with a 22 lb Tilton clutch?
That's proof enough for me.
03-07-2016, 12:22 PM
#105
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St. Jude Donor '05
I wish I had the coin at present to be the "poster child" to make a run at it.
Not saying it cant be done period NA of course it can. been done before with Gen1s but youll usually find that car on a trailer only
Would one want to drive it on the st doubtful (except for weirdos like me, love big solids compression etc etc).
03-07-2016, 11:14 PM
#106
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All on the same page with what 's easier. (Built bottom end, high conpression, custom manifold, bigger bore, high rpm, roller cam, dry sump.) I've built 2 motors that support many of those components. One that is capable of 1000fwhp with under 400 cubes.
As I stated in the 1st post I'm saying stock bottom end based on my experience with my setup. Throw in rod bolts for safety. I'm trying to use parts that are readily available and strictly playing a hp game.
My cammed setup with the stock 243 unported heads makes around 525-540 dynojet rwhp by crunching the numbers 10 different ways.
Being conservative let's use 525 rwhp.
+ 10 hp for loss due to 4.10 gears
+ 10 hp using a ported MSD manifold and 102 TB
+ 10 hp for fine tuning (very conservative)
+ 10 hp for lightweight clutch
That's before adding heads.
How much can heads add? 30,40, or more.
The numbers work out IMO.
Probably good for mid-low nines in 1/4.
As I stated in the 1st post I'm saying stock bottom end based on my experience with my setup. Throw in rod bolts for safety. I'm trying to use parts that are readily available and strictly playing a hp game.
My cammed setup with the stock 243 unported heads makes around 525-540 dynojet rwhp by crunching the numbers 10 different ways.
Being conservative let's use 525 rwhp.
+ 10 hp for loss due to 4.10 gears
+ 10 hp using a ported MSD manifold and 102 TB
+ 10 hp for fine tuning (very conservative)
+ 10 hp for lightweight clutch
That's before adding heads.
How much can heads add? 30,40, or more.
The numbers work out IMO.
Probably good for mid-low nines in 1/4.
03-08-2016, 12:35 AM
#107
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I truly believe it's possible to make a non-peaky 575+ dynojet rwhp with a SBE 346ci ls6 without getting too crazy.
And I think it can be done with an hydraulic roller cam, plastic intake, 3.42 gears, and other readily available parts in todays market.
It will take a bit of rpm, some extensive tuning, a very lightweight clutch, the proper cam, a bit of ingenuity, and a lot of attention to some of the finer details.
No doubt it will cost some coin but I also feel it doesn't have to be "unstreetable". But for sure I'm well aware that this is a very subjective, made up, term that gets thrown around way too lightly. It's finest hour certainly won't be parked at the local Wegmans or ShopRite.
I have little doubt that a setup like this could run mid to low 9's in a well setup vette. And that's where you really start to lose this so called "streetability".
What you were able to accomplish with older technology, so many years ago, in a down right daily driver, was and still is super impressive and paved the way for many of us to push the envelope on 346c.i. power. There always seem to be more power to unleash somewhere, somehow and it often takes years to figure out how to do so as it is does in almost all aspects of life.
Chasing hp this way reminds me of chasing big fish. You start out with the average size until you learn the tricks it takes to catch the big ones. And this process usually takes years. When you start entering the big leagues you find there's usually someone who knows more and has a better record catch. Then there's that ultimate draw to keep going back for more. And the reason for that is not only to try and top the other guy but simply because you know now, through experience, that there's much bigger fish out there that have never been caught. There's always more to be had and I'm fully convinced no one will ever catch the biggest ones that exist.
On that note I'm off to go striper fishing, lol, and will settle for a few 20lbers.
And I think it can be done with an hydraulic roller cam, plastic intake, 3.42 gears, and other readily available parts in todays market.
It will take a bit of rpm, some extensive tuning, a very lightweight clutch, the proper cam, a bit of ingenuity, and a lot of attention to some of the finer details.
No doubt it will cost some coin but I also feel it doesn't have to be "unstreetable". But for sure I'm well aware that this is a very subjective, made up, term that gets thrown around way too lightly. It's finest hour certainly won't be parked at the local Wegmans or ShopRite.
I have little doubt that a setup like this could run mid to low 9's in a well setup vette. And that's where you really start to lose this so called "streetability".
What you were able to accomplish with older technology, so many years ago, in a down right daily driver, was and still is super impressive and paved the way for many of us to push the envelope on 346c.i. power. There always seem to be more power to unleash somewhere, somehow and it often takes years to figure out how to do so as it is does in almost all aspects of life.
Chasing hp this way reminds me of chasing big fish. You start out with the average size until you learn the tricks it takes to catch the big ones. And this process usually takes years. When you start entering the big leagues you find there's usually someone who knows more and has a better record catch. Then there's that ultimate draw to keep going back for more. And the reason for that is not only to try and top the other guy but simply because you know now, through experience, that there's much bigger fish out there that have never been caught. There's always more to be had and I'm fully convinced no one will ever catch the biggest ones that exist.
On that note I'm off to go striper fishing, lol, and will settle for a few 20lbers.
I'd personally like to do both someday lol
03-08-2016, 08:07 AM
#109
Le Mans Master
Thread Starter
The record for my boat is 55lbs. The NJ record is in the 70's I believe. We know there's some pushing 100 lbs. out there.
Catching an 85lb striper is the equivalent of a 585hp dyno pull IMO, lol.
Last edited by robz; 03-08-2016 at 08:25 AM.
03-08-2016, 08:12 AM
#110
Le Mans Master
Thread Starter
I can see how it's possible based on the above, but initially would have a hard time believing a cam only ls6 would make 525rwhp with a 45lb clutch and through 4.10s. I didn't read the whole thread so you may have answered already, but is your compression still 10.5:1 or do you run a thinner gasket? Also curious what wheel/tire you dyno on as I know that you know that makes a difference.
I usually run a drag radial on the dyno and my Bogarts.
03-08-2016, 03:45 PM
#111
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St. Jude Donor '05
truly believe it's possible to make a non-peaky 575+ dynojet rwhp with a SBE 346ci ls6 without getting too crazy.
Stock bottom end period save for cam what about rod bolts
HR cam plastic intake
Anything goes with heads headers rest of drivetrain
And non peaky Im stuck there
(can one even get 4.88 gears for these?)
As hp goes up it takes more to gain a little.
Dunno guys
Like to see someone do this as most here couldnt afford to
If I won the lotto Id be living on coffee in a shop somewhere trying
Bet Mamo could, or do better than most
(Know youre listening dude pipe in)
At least dreams are for free
Last edited by cv67; 03-08-2016 at 03:45 PM.
03-08-2016, 10:48 PM
#112
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Haha, I agree with your comparison and nice way to tie it back to the original post for it not to be completely off topic.
Last edited by PRE-Z06; 03-08-2016 at 10:50 PM.
03-09-2016, 06:55 AM
#113
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Shoot, there have only been 14 striper over 40lbs recorded in Texas...biggest my buddy has caught is 16lbs, a dink by y'all's standard!
Dang, the state record here is 53lbs.
Haha, I agree with your comparison and nice way to tie it back to the original post for it not to be completely off topic.
Dang, the state record here is 53lbs.
Haha, I agree with your comparison and nice way to tie it back to the original post for it not to be completely off topic.
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03-10-2016, 07:14 AM
#114
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03-24-2016, 09:54 PM
#115
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Inside Secrets: SAM School’s 825 hp Stock Eliminator LS7
Some good information here keeping with the theme of 8k rpm, fine details and results beyond ordinary. Click the link at the bottom...a good read.
"".....The resulting numbers are absolutely astonishing: 825 horsepower and 8,300 rpm with a hydraulic roller camshaft, factory Chevy cylinder head castings, and a production LS7 aluminum block.....
How is this even possible? As SAM Tech Director of Education Judson Massingill so eloquently explains, “Getting the first 90 percent of an engine’s hp potential is easy, the next five percent is hard, and the last five percent is a real SOB.” Phrased slightly differently, while the bulk of the hot rodding world is perfectly content settling for the first 90 percent, only the smartest guys in the room can find the next five percent. The quest to find the last five percent, however, goes down in top secret assembly rooms that exist entirely off the grid. Prying eyes brave enough to try to sneak into one of these black sites better be prepared to get beaten like a dissident in a Cold War prison camp....""
http://www.chevyhardcore.com/tech-st...eliminator-ls7
"".....The resulting numbers are absolutely astonishing: 825 horsepower and 8,300 rpm with a hydraulic roller camshaft, factory Chevy cylinder head castings, and a production LS7 aluminum block.....
How is this even possible? As SAM Tech Director of Education Judson Massingill so eloquently explains, “Getting the first 90 percent of an engine’s hp potential is easy, the next five percent is hard, and the last five percent is a real SOB.” Phrased slightly differently, while the bulk of the hot rodding world is perfectly content settling for the first 90 percent, only the smartest guys in the room can find the next five percent. The quest to find the last five percent, however, goes down in top secret assembly rooms that exist entirely off the grid. Prying eyes brave enough to try to sneak into one of these black sites better be prepared to get beaten like a dissident in a Cold War prison camp....""
http://www.chevyhardcore.com/tech-st...eliminator-ls7
07-07-2016, 07:53 AM
#118
why run it with a catback? backpressure helps Power numbers?
07-08-2016, 02:18 AM
#119
Drifting
If it's just a dyno number, then it seems you're also going to need to qualify WHICHEVER dyno is being used, since we all know you can see 30hp diff from one to the other.
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