[Z06] Modded C5Z or stock C6Z?
10-03-2017, 04:49 AM
#1
Modded C5Z or stock C6Z?
My Z06 is stock save for a CAI that came on it when I bought it. I've been thinking of changing up the exhaust (and replacing that stupid H-pipe) and almost thinking of LT headers at the same time. But modding hurts value, so if I do it then it's gotta mean I'm keeping my C5Z for a long time. At 31k miles it's still got plenty to go (I bought it with these low miles on it about a year ago).
But I've been looking at what LTs, full exhaust, CAI, and a tune gets you and it seems like about 30ish HP. Lot of dough for not that much go, crucify me if you want but seems there are other cars that can be tuned for less and be faster and make more power (I won't mention it, because obviously it's not a Corvette but it's a factory turbo car). Ignoring that though seems like after a certain point the C5Z needs to start getting upgrades for the transmission, rear end, etc. where the costs seem very high and it's a lot of custom work.
I know lots of folks get super attached to their specific car to the point they don't want any other, I like mine but I'm not so attached that I couldn't sell it and upgrade to something else. I didn't buy this thing new, I just picked it up used and it's very clean and stock. Almost feels like if the car lived this long stock, just leave it mostly that way and if I want more go to just upgrade to something faster out of the box. Thus where I'm starting to do the math and see for how much money would be dropped into a C5Z to make it faster, a C6Z seems to already be as fast without any mods. True it's different body style (no pop ups) but seems like you do also gain a more modern feeling car.
Can anyone share the costs to do a mild build on a C5Z? LT headers, full catback exhaust with catted X-pipe, maybe an intake and a tune for all that? Kinda hate that the C5 has to do the column lock bypass, effectively makes the car have no anti-theft protection on the wheel. Call me weird if ya want but part of enjoying a fast/fun car for me is knowing financially it made the most sense for what I'm getting. The cheapest and fastest option appeals to me, as long as I'm not throwing money away to do it (which is what serious mods feels like, drop $20-30k that you won't ever see again).
But I've been looking at what LTs, full exhaust, CAI, and a tune gets you and it seems like about 30ish HP. Lot of dough for not that much go, crucify me if you want but seems there are other cars that can be tuned for less and be faster and make more power (I won't mention it, because obviously it's not a Corvette but it's a factory turbo car). Ignoring that though seems like after a certain point the C5Z needs to start getting upgrades for the transmission, rear end, etc. where the costs seem very high and it's a lot of custom work.
I know lots of folks get super attached to their specific car to the point they don't want any other, I like mine but I'm not so attached that I couldn't sell it and upgrade to something else. I didn't buy this thing new, I just picked it up used and it's very clean and stock. Almost feels like if the car lived this long stock, just leave it mostly that way and if I want more go to just upgrade to something faster out of the box. Thus where I'm starting to do the math and see for how much money would be dropped into a C5Z to make it faster, a C6Z seems to already be as fast without any mods. True it's different body style (no pop ups) but seems like you do also gain a more modern feeling car.
Can anyone share the costs to do a mild build on a C5Z? LT headers, full catback exhaust with catted X-pipe, maybe an intake and a tune for all that? Kinda hate that the C5 has to do the column lock bypass, effectively makes the car have no anti-theft protection on the wheel. Call me weird if ya want but part of enjoying a fast/fun car for me is knowing financially it made the most sense for what I'm getting. The cheapest and fastest option appeals to me, as long as I'm not throwing money away to do it (which is what serious mods feels like, drop $20-30k that you won't ever see again).
10-03-2017, 05:42 AM
#2
Melting Slicks
Depends upon which way you go and who does the work.
If you go for top of the line headers, you are looking at basically $2,000.00 for ARH, Kooks, or LG Pros.
If you go with Texas Speed, Hinson, or XSPower, you are looking at about $1,000.00.
Assumption for either is that you opt for a catted XPipe.
CAI is around $ 300.00 for Vararam.
Installation is going to be around $ 600.00 for both CAI and Headers.
Dyno Tunes range from 250.00 - 500.00. Mail order tunes range from 150.00-500.00, depending upon whether you send in your PCM or go with someone like Chuck Cow's tune.
So depending upon your header choice, you are looking at between 3,000.00- 4,000.00 total. Might as well add wires and plugs and look at under drive pulley and 160 stat while you are at it, so close to $4000.00 with the lower priced headers.
That should get you around 390-395 HP at the wheels, or around 440-450 at that crank. It will breathe much better and mid-range torque curve should be much better than stock. This is on Dyna-Jet dyno.
The best bang for the buck (when it comes to performance), is going to be a centrifugal supercharger. For $8,000.00 - $9,000.00 you can get a new A&A or ECS kit installed and dyno-tuned, which is going to provide you with 500+ RWHP, without any other changes, or around 560-575 at the crank.
Your only issue here is that the clutch becomes a weak point with this much power. Adding a new clutch adds another 1500.00 installed (assuming you do both at the same time).
As the old adage goes, "Speed cost. How fast do you want to go?"
If you go for top of the line headers, you are looking at basically $2,000.00 for ARH, Kooks, or LG Pros.
If you go with Texas Speed, Hinson, or XSPower, you are looking at about $1,000.00.
Assumption for either is that you opt for a catted XPipe.
CAI is around $ 300.00 for Vararam.
Installation is going to be around $ 600.00 for both CAI and Headers.
Dyno Tunes range from 250.00 - 500.00. Mail order tunes range from 150.00-500.00, depending upon whether you send in your PCM or go with someone like Chuck Cow's tune.
So depending upon your header choice, you are looking at between 3,000.00- 4,000.00 total. Might as well add wires and plugs and look at under drive pulley and 160 stat while you are at it, so close to $4000.00 with the lower priced headers.
That should get you around 390-395 HP at the wheels, or around 440-450 at that crank. It will breathe much better and mid-range torque curve should be much better than stock. This is on Dyna-Jet dyno.
The best bang for the buck (when it comes to performance), is going to be a centrifugal supercharger. For $8,000.00 - $9,000.00 you can get a new A&A or ECS kit installed and dyno-tuned, which is going to provide you with 500+ RWHP, without any other changes, or around 560-575 at the crank.
Your only issue here is that the clutch becomes a weak point with this much power. Adding a new clutch adds another 1500.00 installed (assuming you do both at the same time).
As the old adage goes, "Speed cost. How fast do you want to go?"
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10-03-2017, 06:30 AM
#3
Melting Slicks
I go through the same thoughts as you daily. From my view of your post I would say sell it and move on. Every time I move to another generation I end up back at the C5 Z. That's where we differ. I do seem to be attached to it.
The numbers above are what I have found as well. If you jump to an unmodified C6 Z your only hit will be from declining value. Modify anything on the C5 Z any that money is gone unless you remove it and get some of the expense back....but then you need another tune etc...
The numbers above are what I have found as well. If you jump to an unmodified C6 Z your only hit will be from declining value. Modify anything on the C5 Z any that money is gone unless you remove it and get some of the expense back....but then you need another tune etc...
10-03-2017, 09:17 AM
#4
Thanks for sharing some costs bikerider, I actually have a Mantic ER2 clutch already. I had to have the rear main seal replaced so thought I might as well upgrade the clutch while that was all out. I am not sure what kind of CAI I have but it's carbon fiber so there's some kind of aftermarket one already on it.
I certainly enjoy driving the car as is, but it's almost starting to be where there are other stock street cars that are as fast now like GT350, Hellcat (faster if auto, similar if manual), latest gen Camaro SS. I once ran against a Charger R/T (The older style from the late 2000's) and while I beat him it wasn't by a lot, guessing he was definitely not stock if he was able to do that well against me.
So $4-5k for some quality bolt ons, which in essence could slightly hit the value on the car because people like stock cars. Hm I wonder what sort of 1/4 time and 0-60 mph times are put down with those kind of mods. That's definitely less then a C6Z, they seem to be around $36-40k from what I'm seeing. My "alternate" factory boosted car option is also in the same price range as a C6Z, but usually $1-2k worth of CAI, downpipe, exhaust, and tune increases HP by 100, and ends up putting down 0-60 and 1/4 times on par with a stock C6Z.
I certainly enjoy driving the car as is, but it's almost starting to be where there are other stock street cars that are as fast now like GT350, Hellcat (faster if auto, similar if manual), latest gen Camaro SS. I once ran against a Charger R/T (The older style from the late 2000's) and while I beat him it wasn't by a lot, guessing he was definitely not stock if he was able to do that well against me.
So $4-5k for some quality bolt ons, which in essence could slightly hit the value on the car because people like stock cars. Hm I wonder what sort of 1/4 time and 0-60 mph times are put down with those kind of mods. That's definitely less then a C6Z, they seem to be around $36-40k from what I'm seeing. My "alternate" factory boosted car option is also in the same price range as a C6Z, but usually $1-2k worth of CAI, downpipe, exhaust, and tune increases HP by 100, and ends up putting down 0-60 and 1/4 times on par with a stock C6Z.
10-03-2017, 10:22 AM
#5
Racer
When i got my headers, cai and a tune i was not that impressed. it didnt feel like anything crazy but felt crazy on the pockets. it did add a better note to my corsas.
i think the c6z is perfect right out the box. i have battled myself in trying to sell my c5z and just getting a c6z but this far down in the total spent on my c5z i cant justify it.
i would recommend to test drive c6z and see if its worth it. once you start modding it escalates quickly and becomes to a point where its to late to turn back now.
Adding power is the easy part... putting it down to use is the hard part.
i think the c6z is perfect right out the box. i have battled myself in trying to sell my c5z and just getting a c6z but this far down in the total spent on my c5z i cant justify it.
i would recommend to test drive c6z and see if its worth it. once you start modding it escalates quickly and becomes to a point where its to late to turn back now.
Adding power is the easy part... putting it down to use is the hard part.
Last edited by RomanNYC; 10-03-2017 at 10:39 AM.
10-03-2017, 11:08 AM
#6
Team Owner
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St. Jude Donor '05
Make the decision easy take a ride in a C6z youll know either way
Torque is where its at on the st.
Lot easier than blowing 10-15k on your car breaking stuff only to find out its not really what you wanted. Dont worry about resale minute you change stuff out it goes out the window. Plenty of guys want to buy your mods for pennies on the dollar. Theres some myth that only stock vettes have value not so .Personally I wouldnt buy as Im way too picky and want to be the one to toss the money out the winda' just saying.
Stilll......big difference in CI so whatever you do to the C6z youll notice more of.
Well said....making powers only part of it. Burnouts are impressive to youngsters, cars that hook and go another story.
Torque is where its at on the st.
Lot easier than blowing 10-15k on your car breaking stuff only to find out its not really what you wanted. Dont worry about resale minute you change stuff out it goes out the window. Plenty of guys want to buy your mods for pennies on the dollar. Theres some myth that only stock vettes have value not so .Personally I wouldnt buy as Im way too picky and want to be the one to toss the money out the winda' just saying.
Stilll......big difference in CI so whatever you do to the C6z youll notice more of.
putting it down to use is the hard part.
Last edited by cv67; 10-03-2017 at 11:10 AM.
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RomanNYC (10-03-2017)
10-03-2017, 11:34 AM
#7
Racer
Thanks for sharing some costs bikerider, I actually have a Mantic ER2 clutch already. I had to have the rear main seal replaced so thought I might as well upgrade the clutch while that was all out. I am not sure what kind of CAI I have but it's carbon fiber so there's some kind of aftermarket one already on it.
I certainly enjoy driving the car as is, but it's almost starting to be where there are other stock street cars that are as fast now like GT350, Hellcat (faster if auto, similar if manual), latest gen Camaro SS. I once ran against a Charger R/T (The older style from the late 2000's) and while I beat him it wasn't by a lot, guessing he was definitely not stock if he was able to do that well against me.
So $4-5k for some quality bolt ons, which in essence could slightly hit the value on the car because people like stock cars. Hm I wonder what sort of 1/4 time and 0-60 mph times are put down with those kind of mods. That's definitely less then a C6Z, they seem to be around $36-40k from what I'm seeing. My "alternate" factory boosted car option is also in the same price range as a C6Z, but usually $1-2k worth of CAI, downpipe, exhaust, and tune increases HP by 100, and ends up putting down 0-60 and 1/4 times on par with a stock C6Z.
I certainly enjoy driving the car as is, but it's almost starting to be where there are other stock street cars that are as fast now like GT350, Hellcat (faster if auto, similar if manual), latest gen Camaro SS. I once ran against a Charger R/T (The older style from the late 2000's) and while I beat him it wasn't by a lot, guessing he was definitely not stock if he was able to do that well against me.
So $4-5k for some quality bolt ons, which in essence could slightly hit the value on the car because people like stock cars. Hm I wonder what sort of 1/4 time and 0-60 mph times are put down with those kind of mods. That's definitely less then a C6Z, they seem to be around $36-40k from what I'm seeing. My "alternate" factory boosted car option is also in the same price range as a C6Z, but usually $1-2k worth of CAI, downpipe, exhaust, and tune increases HP by 100, and ends up putting down 0-60 and 1/4 times on par with a stock C6Z.
May not be the best answer but have you considered putting in a LS7 engine? What I see at vengeance racings, those mods you mentioned are extremely expensive, and not a hole lot of gain in my book.
10-03-2017, 12:01 PM
#8
So I found an '09 C6Z not far from me, but I've seen this problem before back when I wanted to look at a 911 where they start this BS about wanting to talk money before I even drive the car. I'm sure they'll do the same business on the C6Z. I must've struck lucky with the place selling my C5Z, friendly enough to let me drive the car and didn't go with me. I don't care about burnouts or anything stupid, just like to get a feel for the power without some idiot salesman trying to tell me how to drive. Usually ends up with me driving more sedate than I usually would when I drive. lol, will never forget the first Vette I looked at I was nervous as the owner was riding shotgun and I short shifted it and was barely getting on it.
Somehow showing up in my C5Z is never quite enough for these guys, I'm sure they'll say how "slow" that my old one is and the C6Z is a "different beast". It's faster for sure, but give me a break it's 100 HP more. 0-60 is a few tenths more. Ya'd think I came in in some old foxbody Mustang where the definition of "fast" is totally different.
Somehow showing up in my C5Z is never quite enough for these guys, I'm sure they'll say how "slow" that my old one is and the C6Z is a "different beast". It's faster for sure, but give me a break it's 100 HP more. 0-60 is a few tenths more. Ya'd think I came in in some old foxbody Mustang where the definition of "fast" is totally different.
10-03-2017, 12:18 PM
#9
Drifting
Well I didn't take the time to read all the responses, but I have very relevant experience to share w/ you regarding this dilemma. 4 years ago this January I purchased my '03 Z06. I originally was shopping for a handful of muscle/sports cars but always came down to either stretching for a C6Z 06-08 or a C6 LS3 preferably GS or Z51 or to "settle" on an 03-04 C5Z - regardless of the vehicle I'd end up w/ - I knew I would end up modifying to some degree, can't help it, & I like making the car "mine".
2 things you should know - firstoff, the mild bread & butter mods that will NOT hurt your its value & SHOULD help it would be: intake, headers, shifter, tune - maybe catback - as long as you keep all the stock parts in storage if a future buyer absolutely wants to return to stock...IMO those mods only enhance the ownership experience of the car. The 2nd thing to know is that every single C6Z will require $3500-$4500 in top end work/valve guides etc. as that is a known weak point, there is NO WAY I would spend $35-45k on a used C6Z to only to have the motor implode - so that has to be factored in when purchasing (replacing valve springs on the 02-03 C5Z is also a prerequisite, but much cheaper & can be done on your own even).
What I have done to the C5Z performance-wise to essentially match C6Z or in some areas surpass - bilstein sport shocks ($365), steinjager sways + endlinks - $500, Vararam CAI - $340, ARH LT headers - $2500, ported TB - $75, tune(s) - $900, MGW shifter, cam package & all necessary hardware $3200, Nitto NTO5r tires - $900- whp around 445 on a mustang dyno in a 3000 lb car on barely legal street tires = PRICELESS I've also added partition/trunk tray, power coated the stock wheels black, and had a modern stereo installed Pioneer deck, Bluetooth, JL audio speakers + amp + dynamat ($1600 cost)
If I had a C6Z I'd probably forego the headers which saves some $$$ but I'd spend almost double for the valve guide job, I would still replace the shifter, add intake, swap the cam, & probably do a axleback (whereas I wouldn't do an axleback on the C5Z w/ the factory Ti's), I'd still be swapping the tires, I'd still be getting it tuned, & while the C6Z's have Bluetooth the radios blow & I'd probably wind up swapping that out too
What I'm getting at....I didn't see any scenario where I wouldn't be +$10-$12,000 more all in minimum for a C6Z & I had a small note on my C5Z that I paid down quickly - would have taken a little longer on a C6Z & my mod fever would've burned longer w/o any relief b/c the entry cost was higher on the C6Z & the immediate expense of valve job + a tune would have put future mods off a bit.
Now, when I drive a C6Z or LS3 C6 stock - and I have recently - it simply enforces the idea of keeping my well modified C5Z b/c a) my modded C5Z just "feels" much snappier even than a stock C6Z, & b) the idea of starting over w/ a newer car right now having modded the C5Z to my liking just isn't very appealing.
Now since your car is stock its a different story - you have yet to dump any big $$ into it, but if you own it outright its not a bad time to start modding it either. If it were me & you were looking for a higher performance bar TBH I'd forget about a C6Z & look @ either a C6 ZR1 or a 2012-2014 Camaro Z28. The ZR1 can be had for $50-55k @ this point - which is essentially theft b/c they WILL appreciate smartly - & the Z28 has the LS7 motor w/o the valve guide issue, wears 315mm rubber on the FRONT, has multimatic dynamic spool valve shocks, carbon ceramic brakes, AND it'll outlap a freakin Nissan GTR @ your favorite racetrack. You can buy that car for $40k
If you want the most bang for the buck in terms of GM performance cars, it is no longer the C5Z arguably it'd be the Z28 Camaro.
2 things you should know - firstoff, the mild bread & butter mods that will NOT hurt your its value & SHOULD help it would be: intake, headers, shifter, tune - maybe catback - as long as you keep all the stock parts in storage if a future buyer absolutely wants to return to stock...IMO those mods only enhance the ownership experience of the car. The 2nd thing to know is that every single C6Z will require $3500-$4500 in top end work/valve guides etc. as that is a known weak point, there is NO WAY I would spend $35-45k on a used C6Z to only to have the motor implode - so that has to be factored in when purchasing (replacing valve springs on the 02-03 C5Z is also a prerequisite, but much cheaper & can be done on your own even).
What I have done to the C5Z performance-wise to essentially match C6Z or in some areas surpass - bilstein sport shocks ($365), steinjager sways + endlinks - $500, Vararam CAI - $340, ARH LT headers - $2500, ported TB - $75, tune(s) - $900, MGW shifter, cam package & all necessary hardware $3200, Nitto NTO5r tires - $900- whp around 445 on a mustang dyno in a 3000 lb car on barely legal street tires = PRICELESS
I've also added partition/trunk tray, power coated the stock wheels black, and had a modern stereo installed Pioneer deck, Bluetooth, JL audio speakers + amp + dynamat ($1600 cost) If I had a C6Z I'd probably forego the headers which saves some $$$ but I'd spend almost double for the valve guide job, I would still replace the shifter, add intake, swap the cam, & probably do a axleback (whereas I wouldn't do an axleback on the C5Z w/ the factory Ti's), I'd still be swapping the tires, I'd still be getting it tuned, & while the C6Z's have Bluetooth the radios blow & I'd probably wind up swapping that out too
What I'm getting at....I didn't see any scenario where I wouldn't be +$10-$12,000 more all in minimum for a C6Z & I had a small note on my C5Z that I paid down quickly - would have taken a little longer on a C6Z & my mod fever would've burned longer w/o any relief b/c the entry cost was higher on the C6Z & the immediate expense of valve job + a tune would have put future mods off a bit.
Now, when I drive a C6Z or LS3 C6 stock - and I have recently - it simply enforces the idea of keeping my well modified C5Z b/c a) my modded C5Z just "feels" much snappier even than a stock C6Z, & b) the idea of starting over w/ a newer car right now having modded the C5Z to my liking just isn't very appealing.
Now since your car is stock its a different story - you have yet to dump any big $$ into it, but if you own it outright its not a bad time to start modding it either. If it were me & you were looking for a higher performance bar TBH I'd forget about a C6Z & look @ either a C6 ZR1 or a 2012-2014 Camaro Z28. The ZR1 can be had for $50-55k @ this point - which is essentially theft b/c they WILL appreciate smartly - & the Z28 has the LS7 motor w/o the valve guide issue, wears 315mm rubber on the FRONT, has multimatic dynamic spool valve shocks, carbon ceramic brakes, AND it'll outlap a freakin Nissan GTR @ your favorite racetrack. You can buy that car for $40k
If you want the most bang for the buck in terms of GM performance cars, it is no longer the C5Z arguably it'd be the Z28 Camaro.
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10-03-2017, 12:46 PM
#10
Racer
z28 is an interesting car. its 3800lbs and it has carbon ceramics.... carbon ceramics are only good when you get them hot enough like on a track, but than again your tracking a 3800lbs car... i guess its the weight of the car that makes these brakes on it.
I believe both the c5z and the c6z need work.
c5z Issues:
- clutch is horrible, after a few hard launches or track session it will just sink to the floor.
- transmission needs work also, aluminium shift works will go eventually and a rebuild will be needed.
- electrical issues, ground issues, definitely headache related.
you cant win lol
I believe both the c5z and the c6z need work.
c5z Issues:
- clutch is horrible, after a few hard launches or track session it will just sink to the floor.
- transmission needs work also, aluminium shift works will go eventually and a rebuild will be needed.
- electrical issues, ground issues, definitely headache related.
you cant win lol
Last edited by RomanNYC; 10-03-2017 at 01:11 PM.
10-03-2017, 01:38 PM
#11
I forgot to mention, I do have an MGW shifter on my C5Z that I installed. It's quite nice. I'm not necessarily a guy who has to have lots of mods, if a car is pretty fun I can leave it stock. I only ponder it on the C5Z given the bar that other performance cars have finally started matching all these years later (Good job on that mark GM).
A C6 ZR1 would be lovely, truly a supercar. But I've never seen one for less than $60k and while I could swing owning such a car, that's way too much sunk in IMO. Z28 Camaro seems odd, I have heard others saying "buy this car while you can" but they start out slower than the C5Z due to all that weight. I mean 0-60 MPH comes up in 4.4 seconds and 1/4 is 12.7 sec, I'm sure it responds as well to mods as the C6Z but in stock trim a '16+ Camaro SS or a 392 Challenger would be able to best you. Sure, not on a track but I don't drive on tracks so that part doesn't really mean much to me.
I knew of the C6Z head issue, what exactly is it again? Isn't the problem something that comes up around 30-60k miles? I remember if you saw one with high miles it's pretty much fine and if it had low miles it's fine but there was a danger zone range where if it was within you ran the risk of failure. Also, weren't early years way more problematic? I thought in later years it was resolved.
The Golf R was the "mystery car" I've been mentioning. Yeah I know it's German and it has the reliability stuff that can come with them, but having AWD with a dual clutch and they aren't that pricey to tune. Those can be picked up to the tune of the same kind of dough we're talking for a C6Z here and that's for a '16 or '17 instead of an '08 or '09. But obviously it's not cool in the same way a Vette is, it's a boxy hatchback. Kinda all the more surprising it could have such crazy performance.
I don't think I'll mod my C5Z, at least not beyond an X pipe and exhaust if I do anything. Maybe even just the X pipe and leave the Ti exhaust to get rid of the motorboat sound. For my street use of the C5Z I honestly don't have much I should complain about, guess it's just always fun to think about if it were even faster. But then I'd have an even faster car that I shouldn't be racing other people with, beggin' the question of why spend the money on the mods in the first place? I really appreciate factory fast cars now, to those who might say "Why buy a Cobra when you can mod a Mustang GT?" or similar with other cars. Because the Cobra holds its value, modded to hell and back GT - nope. That helps on insurance payouts too. Haven't needed it yet, but without a garage I can't imagine pouring $10-12k on a $20k-ish car knowing all those mods would just be lost if something happened to it.
A C6 ZR1 would be lovely, truly a supercar. But I've never seen one for less than $60k and while I could swing owning such a car, that's way too much sunk in IMO. Z28 Camaro seems odd, I have heard others saying "buy this car while you can" but they start out slower than the C5Z due to all that weight. I mean 0-60 MPH comes up in 4.4 seconds and 1/4 is 12.7 sec, I'm sure it responds as well to mods as the C6Z but in stock trim a '16+ Camaro SS or a 392 Challenger would be able to best you. Sure, not on a track but I don't drive on tracks so that part doesn't really mean much to me.
I knew of the C6Z head issue, what exactly is it again? Isn't the problem something that comes up around 30-60k miles? I remember if you saw one with high miles it's pretty much fine and if it had low miles it's fine but there was a danger zone range where if it was within you ran the risk of failure. Also, weren't early years way more problematic? I thought in later years it was resolved.
The Golf R was the "mystery car" I've been mentioning. Yeah I know it's German and it has the reliability stuff that can come with them, but having AWD with a dual clutch and they aren't that pricey to tune. Those can be picked up to the tune of the same kind of dough we're talking for a C6Z here and that's for a '16 or '17 instead of an '08 or '09. But obviously it's not cool in the same way a Vette is, it's a boxy hatchback. Kinda all the more surprising it could have such crazy performance.
I don't think I'll mod my C5Z, at least not beyond an X pipe and exhaust if I do anything. Maybe even just the X pipe and leave the Ti exhaust to get rid of the motorboat sound. For my street use of the C5Z I honestly don't have much I should complain about, guess it's just always fun to think about if it were even faster. But then I'd have an even faster car that I shouldn't be racing other people with, beggin' the question of why spend the money on the mods in the first place? I really appreciate factory fast cars now, to those who might say "Why buy a Cobra when you can mod a Mustang GT?" or similar with other cars. Because the Cobra holds its value, modded to hell and back GT - nope. That helps on insurance payouts too. Haven't needed it yet, but without a garage I can't imagine pouring $10-12k on a $20k-ish car knowing all those mods would just be lost if something happened to it.
10-03-2017, 05:52 PM
#12
Drifting
Thanks for sharing some costs bikerider, I actually have a Mantic ER2 clutch already. I had to have the rear main seal replaced so thought I might as well upgrade the clutch while that was all out. I am not sure what kind of CAI I have but it's carbon fiber so there's some kind of aftermarket one already on it...
On the other hand... you've got a Mantic ER2 chosen; I'm sure you're gonna R&R the slave, throw-out, pilot bearing, and maybe even the torque tube bushings. Why not install a lightweight flywheel and 4.10 gears and be "finished"? This wouldn't even require a tune; everything would seem to be stock electronically, so no tuning mods are necessary. If you wanted, you could add LT headers and then add a tune; a tune would certainly help--but 4.10s and a Lwt. flywheel will add a lot of torque and responsiveness to the sensation of "throttle response". All the labor would be "free" since you're gonna have to drop the drivetrain anyway. 4.10s would cost ~$1800 for an RPM core-exchange, and the flywheel would add ~$3-400 depending on your choice.
10-03-2017, 06:49 PM
#13
From all I've read, if your CAI isn't a Vararam or a Callaway Honker, you're prolly not pulling cold air--the "CAI" set up is prolly sucking engine compartment 'warm' air.
On the other hand... you've got a Mantic ER2 chosen; I'm sure you're gonna R&R the slave, throw-out, pilot bearing, and maybe even the torque tube bushings. Why not install a lightweight flywheel and 4.10 gears and be "finished"? This wouldn't even require a tune; everything would seem to be stock electronically, so no tuning mods are necessary. If you wanted, you could add LT headers and then add a tune; a tune would certainly help--but 4.10s and a Lwt. flywheel will add a lot of torque and responsiveness to the sensation of "throttle response". All the labor would be "free" since you're gonna have to drop the drivetrain anyway. 4.10s would cost ~$1800 for an RPM core-exchange, and the flywheel would add ~$3-400 depending on your choice.
On the other hand... you've got a Mantic ER2 chosen; I'm sure you're gonna R&R the slave, throw-out, pilot bearing, and maybe even the torque tube bushings. Why not install a lightweight flywheel and 4.10 gears and be "finished"? This wouldn't even require a tune; everything would seem to be stock electronically, so no tuning mods are necessary. If you wanted, you could add LT headers and then add a tune; a tune would certainly help--but 4.10s and a Lwt. flywheel will add a lot of torque and responsiveness to the sensation of "throttle response". All the labor would be "free" since you're gonna have to drop the drivetrain anyway. 4.10s would cost ~$1800 for an RPM core-exchange, and the flywheel would add ~$3-400 depending on your choice.
10-03-2017, 07:00 PM
#14
Race Director
You seem to be the type of guy who's priority is straight line speed. The C5Z was designed to be a road racing car that also has great acceleration.
If I'm guessing correctly, you also want a head turning car that has alot of street cred'. The C5Z can do all this, but when you modify it, you need to first realize which way to spend your money to achieve your goals. If you can swing the mechanical work yourself, a quality H/C/FAST92 setup in the light chassis will take down almost everything you'll face. I'd never worked on cars, other than spark plugs, oil changes, and the like, but ended up doing all my own mods, short of tuning. (see my sig) It was work, and I don't have a lift, or even much room to work. with only a 228-232@112 cam, the car dyno'd @ 483/432 SAE, and was a blast. Sorry, but headers are a given. After a clutch upgrade, and some expensive rear-end breakage, I also installed a differential and trans brace to cage my new diff. I didn't save the stock parts, because I needed the money to help pay for new parts, and I also bought an EWP and my FAST used. The end result was a fast MF, that got 27 MPG, and was reliable. Of course I then went and ruined it with a supercharger. Yeah, it was expensive, but it was a fun learning experience. GL with your choices.
If I'm guessing correctly, you also want a head turning car that has alot of street cred'. The C5Z can do all this, but when you modify it, you need to first realize which way to spend your money to achieve your goals. If you can swing the mechanical work yourself, a quality H/C/FAST92 setup in the light chassis will take down almost everything you'll face. I'd never worked on cars, other than spark plugs, oil changes, and the like, but ended up doing all my own mods, short of tuning. (see my sig) It was work, and I don't have a lift, or even much room to work. with only a 228-232@112 cam, the car dyno'd @ 483/432 SAE, and was a blast. Sorry, but headers are a given. After a clutch upgrade, and some expensive rear-end breakage, I also installed a differential and trans brace to cage my new diff. I didn't save the stock parts, because I needed the money to help pay for new parts, and I also bought an EWP and my FAST used. The end result was a fast MF, that got 27 MPG, and was reliable. Of course I then went and ruined it with a supercharger. Yeah, it was expensive, but it was a fun learning experience. GL with your choices.
10-03-2017, 10:58 PM
#15
Melting Slicks
Thanks for sharing some costs bikerider, I actually have a Mantic ER2 clutch already. I had to have the rear main seal replaced so thought I might as well upgrade the clutch while that was all out. I am not sure what kind of CAI I have but it's carbon fiber so there's some kind of aftermarket one already on it.
I certainly enjoy driving the car as is, but it's almost starting to be where there are other stock street cars that are as fast now like GT350, Hellcat (faster if auto, similar if manual), latest gen Camaro SS. I once ran against a Charger R/T (The older style from the late 2000's) and while I beat him it wasn't by a lot, guessing he was definitely not stock if he was able to do that well against me.
So $4-5k for some quality bolt ons, which in essence could slightly hit the value on the car because people like stock cars. Hm I wonder what sort of 1/4 time and 0-60 mph times are put down with those kind of mods. That's definitely less then a C6Z, they seem to be around $36-40k from what I'm seeing. My "alternate" factory boosted car option is also in the same price range as a C6Z, but usually $1-2k worth of CAI, downpipe, exhaust, and tune increases HP by 100, and ends up putting down 0-60 and 1/4 times on par with a stock C6Z.
I certainly enjoy driving the car as is, but it's almost starting to be where there are other stock street cars that are as fast now like GT350, Hellcat (faster if auto, similar if manual), latest gen Camaro SS. I once ran against a Charger R/T (The older style from the late 2000's) and while I beat him it wasn't by a lot, guessing he was definitely not stock if he was able to do that well against me.
So $4-5k for some quality bolt ons, which in essence could slightly hit the value on the car because people like stock cars. Hm I wonder what sort of 1/4 time and 0-60 mph times are put down with those kind of mods. That's definitely less then a C6Z, they seem to be around $36-40k from what I'm seeing. My "alternate" factory boosted car option is also in the same price range as a C6Z, but usually $1-2k worth of CAI, downpipe, exhaust, and tune increases HP by 100, and ends up putting down 0-60 and 1/4 times on par with a stock C6Z.
Of course you will NEVER recoup the cost for the mods. As someone else noted, you can always keep the stock parts, put them back on before resale and then sell the performance parts as is. That way, you can recoup some of the cost back, but yes, you will lose the money you invested.
The C6 Z06 is hard to beat in terms of performance OOTB. That naturally aspirated 427 is one monster of an engine. Not just in terms of raw HP, but torque as well.
There have been issues with the valve guides on the 427, so you may want to see if work has been done to the one you are considering purchasing and/or get an extended warranty before putting down your hard earned cash.
I would drive one before I bought. Some have started that it feels more refined and not as raw as the C5 Z06. No doubt it is a high performance monster.
If you were to go SC, you would take the C6 Z06 power wise, but the torque on the C6 Z06 would make a difference still. Would be close in a drag race, but the C6 Z06 might win on a circle track due to potential heat soak issues alone.
To your other question, headers, CAI, 160 stat, under drive pulley, and a good tune should get you into the high 11s, based upon other's results. Of course you will need sticky tires and a lot of practice time to hit 11s. It should shave off somewhere between .2 - .6 seconds off your 1/4 mile runs, regardless.
Last edited by bikeriderga; 10-03-2017 at 10:59 PM.
10-04-2017, 09:51 AM
#16
Drifting
z28 is an interesting car. its 3800lbs and it has carbon ceramics.... carbon ceramics are only good when you get them hot enough like on a track, but than again your tracking a 3800lbs car... i guess its the weight of the car that makes these brakes on it.
I believe both the c5z and the c6z need work.
c5z Issues:
- clutch is horrible, after a few hard launches or track session it will just sink to the floor.
- transmission needs work also, aluminium shift works will go eventually and a rebuild will be needed.
- electrical issues, ground issues, definitely headache related.
you cant win lol
I believe both the c5z and the c6z need work.
c5z Issues:
- clutch is horrible, after a few hard launches or track session it will just sink to the floor.
- transmission needs work also, aluminium shift works will go eventually and a rebuild will be needed.
- electrical issues, ground issues, definitely headache related.
you cant win lol
I think you will find C6Z will put grin on your face initially then eventually you will find it similar to C5Z & get itchy again.
FWIW - my C5Z @ 445whp is = to about 510-515 fwhp right? It weighs 3080 lbs.....so 6.03 lbs for each pony to move. The most badass muscle car on the street is the Hellcat (well the demon now....but that's not really a street car IMO) - which has 707fwhp & weighs 4440 lbs....6.28 lbs per hp - catching my drift here?
You mention hellcat Camaro SS then complain the Z28 is heavy @ 3800 lbs yet the Challenger is a fat f***k lol!!! Your 14 year old vette would EAT it up on a road course OR at the drag strip w/ some bolt-ons...not to mention you can't put real rubber out back on that car w/o bringing it to a body shop for fender work or stepping to the Demon - on a stock C5Z you can put 315 hell even 335mm tires - its not even close, if your goal is bang for the buck all out speed in every situation mod the C5Z further or step up to a C6Z & expect to drop a little coin on it to get it "right" or get something that's already factory blown but weighs less than 2 tons - CAMARO ZL1
10-04-2017, 10:12 AM
#17
Racer
Well I haven't driven one personally - but you should read up on them a little more I think and/or take one for a test drive....the magazine testers said the C5Z was only good for 12.4 1/4 mile yet GM hipo mag hit 11.8x correct? Stock. So I would put more credence in the fact that this Z28 annihilated everything on a road course from GTR's to Porsches. I mean its literally mind boggling - but sounds like you're more into straight line speed....in which case I still suggest Camaro but ZL1 besides the weight, you can make up for that easily w/ more boost/pulley/tune done you will have 550RWHP animal.
I think you will find C6Z will put grin on your face initially then eventually you will find it similar to C5Z & get itchy again.
FWIW - my C5Z @ 445whp is = to about 510-515 fwhp right? It weighs 3080 lbs.....so 6.03 lbs for each pony to move. The most badass muscle car on the street is the Hellcat (well the demon now....but that's not really a street car IMO) - which has 707fwhp & weighs 4440 lbs....6.28 lbs per hp - catching my drift here?
You mention hellcat Camaro SS then complain the Z28 is heavy @ 3800 lbs yet the Challenger is a fat f***k lol!!! Your 14 year old vette would EAT it up on a road course OR at the drag strip w/ some bolt-ons...not to mention you can't put real rubber out back on that car w/o bringing it to a body shop for fender work or stepping to the Demon - on a stock C5Z you can put 315 hell even 335mm tires - its not even close, if your goal is bang for the buck all out speed in every situation mod the C5Z further or step up to a C6Z & expect to drop a little coin on it to get it "right" or get something that's already factory blown but weighs less than 2 tons - CAMARO ZL1
I think you will find C6Z will put grin on your face initially then eventually you will find it similar to C5Z & get itchy again.
FWIW - my C5Z @ 445whp is = to about 510-515 fwhp right? It weighs 3080 lbs.....so 6.03 lbs for each pony to move. The most badass muscle car on the street is the Hellcat (well the demon now....but that's not really a street car IMO) - which has 707fwhp & weighs 4440 lbs....6.28 lbs per hp - catching my drift here?
You mention hellcat Camaro SS then complain the Z28 is heavy @ 3800 lbs yet the Challenger is a fat f***k lol!!! Your 14 year old vette would EAT it up on a road course OR at the drag strip w/ some bolt-ons...not to mention you can't put real rubber out back on that car w/o bringing it to a body shop for fender work or stepping to the Demon - on a stock C5Z you can put 315 hell even 335mm tires - its not even close, if your goal is bang for the buck all out speed in every situation mod the C5Z further or step up to a C6Z & expect to drop a little coin on it to get it "right" or get something that's already factory blown but weighs less than 2 tons - CAMARO ZL1
if you watched that video with the z28 vs the gtr the gtr isnt even in race mode..
i never mentioned hellcat camaro...
Last edited by RomanNYC; 10-04-2017 at 10:21 AM.
10-04-2017, 11:10 AM
#18
I am not mechanically inclined, at least when it comes to tinkering with cars. I understand the concepts and all fine, but actually doing the work I'm not so up on. Call me boring if you want, but I just like driving not tinkering on the car.
My biggest complaint about Camaros is the visibility is not really that good. I like the newest SS and ZL1 with that 10 speed, but the latter is too expensive. The SS isn't so bad, but still has bad visibility. I appreciate handling and all, but the fact a C5Z or Z/28, or whatever will destroy various cars on a track is moot to me since I've never been to a track and even if I go the NCM Motorsports park is the closest one I have to me and it's 150+ miles away. Not exactly something I will ever go to that frequently, and I'd have to drive what I want to race down and back (Don't want to buy a trailer for my truck at this time, no where I could keep the thing).
In a straight line, Z/28 looks pretty slow considering the other options. I'm kind of dumbfounded by this, but it is what it is. Straight line power is all I'll really make use of on public streets. But I don't just want a dragster car or something.
My biggest complaint about Camaros is the visibility is not really that good. I like the newest SS and ZL1 with that 10 speed, but the latter is too expensive. The SS isn't so bad, but still has bad visibility. I appreciate handling and all, but the fact a C5Z or Z/28, or whatever will destroy various cars on a track is moot to me since I've never been to a track and even if I go the NCM Motorsports park is the closest one I have to me and it's 150+ miles away. Not exactly something I will ever go to that frequently, and I'd have to drive what I want to race down and back (Don't want to buy a trailer for my truck at this time, no where I could keep the thing).
In a straight line, Z/28 looks pretty slow considering the other options. I'm kind of dumbfounded by this, but it is what it is. Straight line power is all I'll really make use of on public streets. But I don't just want a dragster car or something.
10-04-2017, 12:42 PM
#19
Drifting
You're missing my point about the magazine testing - motor trend C&D etc. all of em - regardless if they're GM fanboys or not - test cars like pansies, especially manual RWD cars. They were getting 12.4 outta 405hp C5Z's, but GMHP (along w/ plenty of individual drivers) were able to wring out 12.0/11.9/11.8 STOCK
So I was saying maybe, just maybe, there are better times to be had from the Z28 too other than what was written in the mag tests.
Bottom line is - straight line or around a track not much is going to touch either a C5Z w/ few mods or C6Z stock - question is what the OP really wants....IMO it seems like more modern car, a lot more HP regardless of weight, IMO for the $$$ ZL1 would fit that bill.
10-31-2017, 10:32 AM
#20
Race Director
Member Since: Mar 2006
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I'll chime in.... As I was one of those guys with a highly modified C5Z that I owned for 8 yrs.. Bought it stock w 80K mi.. DD it for 4 yrs then built a 414ci stroker for it and began modifying it to run 1/2 mi race events. I cannot tell you how much money I dumped into that car... BUT it was well known in the DFW area and got looks everywhere I drove it. I was running with 900hp Vipers, 1100hp C6Z's and crushing C7Z's.... I got it right where I wanted it...... Then I decided I wanted a C6Z... So I sold it... and was able to pay CASH for my current 08 3LZ C6Z w 22K on it.... Bone stock, garage kept, one owner... First thing I did was heads, cam, headers, intake,throttle body,tune. That is where I am at... My C6Z is making more NA power than my C5Z was... But not much... Although my C6Z feels much quicker than my C5Z.. This 427 is no slouch...
Now, my C5Z also had a 250 shot of Nitrous... It made 750/798 to the tires...
Future plans for my C6Z include some Mamo 265's, sheet metal intake ( expensive one, not the holley)
In terms of driving... the C6Z beats the C5Z hands down... imo... I am looking at getting another C5Z in the not too distant future.. I do miss mine. This one will be either twin Turbo, or as others have said a blower... Keeping my C6Z NA...
GL w whatever you do...
Now, my C5Z also had a 250 shot of Nitrous... It made 750/798 to the tires...
Future plans for my C6Z include some Mamo 265's, sheet metal intake ( expensive one, not the holley)
In terms of driving... the C6Z beats the C5Z hands down... imo... I am looking at getting another C5Z in the not too distant future.. I do miss mine. This one will be either twin Turbo, or as others have said a blower... Keeping my C6Z NA...
GL w whatever you do...