Koni FSD shocks installed and reviewed
12-24-2006, 06:32 PM
#41
I mentioned that factor. Economies of scale play a huge role in the market price required to recoup investment. That's why, other factors more or less equal, you generally get better value for your dollar by buying from a high volume manufacturer, high volume distributor, and high volume retailer. That's Walmart's secret to success. The Mom and Pop stores have to charge more per unit to cover their overhead than a retail giant who deals directly, and in large volume, with manufacturers of mass market products.The idea of pay more, get more is simplistic, and often (very often) not true. That was intended to be the main thrust of my previous comments. That said, if the FSD design is significantly better, it may still be worth paying the premium. Not because of any simplistic pay more get more mistaken ideas, but because the product itself brings benefits to the consumer that can't be obtained from a different vendor.
12-24-2006, 06:56 PM
#42
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shopdog,
Well, I guess we'll see if the FSDs are really better in the passage of time. You guys will make that decision. The only thing that's tough is that shocks, like many other items on the car, are a pretty subjective call. Some actually like a rough ride, for instance. And dyno traces only tell a fraction of the story.
Understand, too, that KONI will shortly have a two-pronged attack on the C5/C6 Vette: the FSDs and the new Sports, which are monotube with inverted bodies and are rebound-adjustable. Depends on what you want/need out of a set of shocks. The new Sports should be available sometime in the first quarter 2007.
Well, I guess we'll see if the FSDs are really better in the passage of time. You guys will make that decision. The only thing that's tough is that shocks, like many other items on the car, are a pretty subjective call. Some actually like a rough ride, for instance. And dyno traces only tell a fraction of the story.
Understand, too, that KONI will shortly have a two-pronged attack on the C5/C6 Vette: the FSDs and the new Sports, which are monotube with inverted bodies and are rebound-adjustable. Depends on what you want/need out of a set of shocks. The new Sports should be available sometime in the first quarter 2007.
12-24-2006, 07:13 PM
#43
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
Often, what you're paying more for is a boutique name. I don't see a $500 difference in materials or labor between the Koni and Bilstein shocks. Both probably cost about $20 to make, though Bilstein has economies of scale in its favor so they probably cost a little less. Still, Bilstein seems satisfied with a 150% markup while Koni seems to want a 875% markup.
Its a bit like air cleaner housings, where some vendors seem to think $300-$400 for $3 worth of plastic is a fair price based on their name. Of course the bottom line is to charge what the market will bear, and the market seems willing to bear a lot for certain names. In the rag business, this is taken to outrageous extremes. The same seems to hold in the limited production auto market.
Its a bit like air cleaner housings, where some vendors seem to think $300-$400 for $3 worth of plastic is a fair price based on their name. Of course the bottom line is to charge what the market will bear, and the market seems willing to bear a lot for certain names. In the rag business, this is taken to outrageous extremes. The same seems to hold in the limited production auto market.
Last edited by torch2000vert; 12-24-2006 at 07:17 PM.
12-24-2006, 07:34 PM
#44
shopdog,
Well, I guess we'll see if the FSDs are really better in the passage of time. You guys will make that decision. The only thing that's tough is that shocks, like many other items on the car, are a pretty subjective call. Some actually like a rough ride, for instance. And dyno traces only tell a fraction of the story.
Understand, too, that KONI will shortly have a two-pronged attack on the C5/C6 Vette: the FSDs and the new Sports, which are monotube with inverted bodies and are rebound-adjustable. Depends on what you want/need out of a set of shocks. The new Sports should be available sometime in the first quarter 2007.
Well, I guess we'll see if the FSDs are really better in the passage of time. You guys will make that decision. The only thing that's tough is that shocks, like many other items on the car, are a pretty subjective call. Some actually like a rough ride, for instance. And dyno traces only tell a fraction of the story.
Understand, too, that KONI will shortly have a two-pronged attack on the C5/C6 Vette: the FSDs and the new Sports, which are monotube with inverted bodies and are rebound-adjustable. Depends on what you want/need out of a set of shocks. The new Sports should be available sometime in the first quarter 2007.
12-24-2006, 07:42 PM
#45
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Often, what you're paying more for is a boutique name. I don't see a $500 difference in materials or labor between the Koni and Bilstein shocks. Both probably cost about $20 to make, though Bilstein has economies of scale in its favor so they probably cost a little less. Still, Bilstein seems satisfied with a 150% markup while Koni seems to want a 875% markup.
Its a bit like air cleaner housings, where some vendors seem to think $300-$400 for $3 worth of plastic is a fair price based on their name. Of course the bottom line is to charge what the market will bear, and the market seems willing to bear a lot for certain names. In the rag business, this is taken to outrageous extremes. The same seems to hold in the limited production auto market.
Its a bit like air cleaner housings, where some vendors seem to think $300-$400 for $3 worth of plastic is a fair price based on their name. Of course the bottom line is to charge what the market will bear, and the market seems willing to bear a lot for certain names. In the rag business, this is taken to outrageous extremes. The same seems to hold in the limited production auto market.
This is interesting logic.
Using that rationale any and all software only should only cost 25 cents because it only takes a few pennies to burn the CD and stick it in a box, since thats onbviously the only thing that goes into their cost
12-24-2006, 08:15 PM
#46
12-24-2006, 08:53 PM
#48
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WOW I love this give and take while remaining civil. Thanks guys, I've learned a ton from this thread!!
When I heard first heard of the FDS shocks it was my gut feeling that they would do for my 07 Z51 exactly what the real world data provided by torch2000vette seems to suggest. I especially like the fact that these are rebuildable and have a lifetime limited warranty.
BJK
When I heard first heard of the FDS shocks it was my gut feeling that they would do for my 07 Z51 exactly what the real world data provided by torch2000vette seems to suggest. I especially like the fact that these are rebuildable and have a lifetime limited warranty.
BJK
Last edited by 07MontRedcp; 12-24-2006 at 09:01 PM.
12-24-2006, 09:19 PM
#49
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Often, what you're paying more for is a boutique name. I don't see a $500 difference in materials or labor between the Koni and Bilstein shocks. Both probably cost about $20 to make, though Bilstein has economies of scale in its favor so they probably cost a little less. Still, Bilstein seems satisfied with a 150% markup while Koni seems to want a 875% markup.
Its a bit like air cleaner housings, where some vendors seem to think $300-$400 for $3 worth of plastic is a fair price based on their name. Of course the bottom line is to charge what the market will bear, and the market seems willing to bear a lot for certain names. In the rag business, this is taken to outrageous extremes. The same seems to hold in the limited production auto market.
Its a bit like air cleaner housings, where some vendors seem to think $300-$400 for $3 worth of plastic is a fair price based on their name. Of course the bottom line is to charge what the market will bear, and the market seems willing to bear a lot for certain names. In the rag business, this is taken to outrageous extremes. The same seems to hold in the limited production auto market.
12-24-2006, 09:20 PM
#50
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KONI's warranty is Limited Lifetime to the original purchaser, which means that unless they are installed improperly or somehow abused, KONI will rebuild or replace a defective damper. I, too, would like to know why that guy is down on KONI products; maybe its something we can address.
I know you guys know your stuff on this forum, but I'm a little baffled about the speculation concerning shock rod length, bump stop dimensions, etc., of OEs versus FSDs. Trust me, our engineers know what they're doing on shocks; differences versus OE are justified. Part of what you see is monotube (OE) versus twin-tube (FSD) designs. FSDs are low-pressure gas, so the piston rod must be pulled out from the shock body to find the extended length, where the OE high-pressure is fully extended unless attached to the car. Another is that FSDs are very sensitive to bump stop length, so the OE stop probably wasn't well suited to this application and our shocks.
Rather than rant on, I'll let our product performance speak for itself.
I know you guys know your stuff on this forum, but I'm a little baffled about the speculation concerning shock rod length, bump stop dimensions, etc., of OEs versus FSDs. Trust me, our engineers know what they're doing on shocks; differences versus OE are justified. Part of what you see is monotube (OE) versus twin-tube (FSD) designs. FSDs are low-pressure gas, so the piston rod must be pulled out from the shock body to find the extended length, where the OE high-pressure is fully extended unless attached to the car. Another is that FSDs are very sensitive to bump stop length, so the OE stop probably wasn't well suited to this application and our shocks.
Rather than rant on, I'll let our product performance speak for itself.
BJK
12-24-2006, 10:22 PM
#51
Of course R&D costs have to be amortized over the production run of a product. Since that's almost all of the cost of a software product, it takes a bigger chunk than for a machined bit of steel or aluminum. For the latter, production costs dominate.
12-25-2006, 02:20 AM
#52
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shopdog
I was reading your input on a rather lenghty discussion of bump steer in an old post and am wondering what your insight is on the ability of the FDS Konis to control "skitter", a concern of mine with the Z51 suspension on my 07. It also was a real problem for me with the 89 IROC I had for many years. I was always reluctant to push it in the corners on the street unless the road was dead smooth. Different animal than the C6 but I think it may have been the same problem.
61 Pontiac 2dr, 3 spd, tri-power 389 w/4.11 rear end
63 1/2 Ford Fairlane 500 2dr, 4 spd, 427 ci 425 hp, dual quads, and 4.11 rearend
67 FireBird, 4 spd, 389ci
69 XKE Jaguar cpe, Yellow w/blk leather, 4 spd
84 Chevy Z28, 5ltr, 5sp, Posi-track, 4 wheel disc brakes
89 IROC cp, 5 ltr 5 spd, 230hp/300tq
07 Mont Red cpe, Z51, MZ6 (early Jan, 07 will add the ACE SLICK wheel package, APS TWIN Turbo Package w/3" APS Exhaust, Z06 brake conversion, corner weighted 4 wheel alignment, and AM Cobalt Guages.
BJK
I was reading your input on a rather lenghty discussion of bump steer in an old post and am wondering what your insight is on the ability of the FDS Konis to control "skitter", a concern of mine with the Z51 suspension on my 07. It also was a real problem for me with the 89 IROC I had for many years. I was always reluctant to push it in the corners on the street unless the road was dead smooth. Different animal than the C6 but I think it may have been the same problem.
61 Pontiac 2dr, 3 spd, tri-power 389 w/4.11 rear end
63 1/2 Ford Fairlane 500 2dr, 4 spd, 427 ci 425 hp, dual quads, and 4.11 rearend
67 FireBird, 4 spd, 389ci
69 XKE Jaguar cpe, Yellow w/blk leather, 4 spd
84 Chevy Z28, 5ltr, 5sp, Posi-track, 4 wheel disc brakes
89 IROC cp, 5 ltr 5 spd, 230hp/300tq
07 Mont Red cpe, Z51, MZ6 (early Jan, 07 will add the ACE SLICK wheel package, APS TWIN Turbo Package w/3" APS Exhaust, Z06 brake conversion, corner weighted 4 wheel alignment, and AM Cobalt Guages.
BJK
Last edited by 07MontRedcp; 01-02-2007 at 11:18 PM.
12-25-2006, 03:26 AM
#53
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shopdog
I was reading your input on a rather lenghty discussion of bump steer in an old post and am wondering what your insight is on the ability of the FDS Konis to control "skitter", a concern of mine with the Z51 suspension on my 07. It also was a real problem for me with the 89 IROC I had for many years. I was always reluctant to push it in the corners on the street unless the road was dead smooth. Different anaimal than the C6 but I think it may have been the same problem.
61 Pontiac 2dr, 3 spd, tri-power 389 w/4.11 rear end
63 1/2 Ford Fairlane 500 2dr, 4 spd, 427 ci 425 hp, dual quads, and 4.11 rearend
69 XKE Jaguar cpe, Yellow w/blk leather, 4 spd
84 Chevy Z28, 5ltr, 5sp, Posi-track, 4 wheel disc brakes
89 IROC cp, 5 ltr 5 spd, 230hp/300tq
07 Mont Red cpe, Z51, MZ6 (early Jan, 07 will add the ACE GP wheel package, APS TWIN Turbo Package w/3" APS Exhaust, Z06 brake conversion, corner weighted 4 wheel alignment, and AM Cobalt Guages.
BJK
I was reading your input on a rather lenghty discussion of bump steer in an old post and am wondering what your insight is on the ability of the FDS Konis to control "skitter", a concern of mine with the Z51 suspension on my 07. It also was a real problem for me with the 89 IROC I had for many years. I was always reluctant to push it in the corners on the street unless the road was dead smooth. Different anaimal than the C6 but I think it may have been the same problem.
61 Pontiac 2dr, 3 spd, tri-power 389 w/4.11 rear end
63 1/2 Ford Fairlane 500 2dr, 4 spd, 427 ci 425 hp, dual quads, and 4.11 rearend
69 XKE Jaguar cpe, Yellow w/blk leather, 4 spd
84 Chevy Z28, 5ltr, 5sp, Posi-track, 4 wheel disc brakes
89 IROC cp, 5 ltr 5 spd, 230hp/300tq
07 Mont Red cpe, Z51, MZ6 (early Jan, 07 will add the ACE GP wheel package, APS TWIN Turbo Package w/3" APS Exhaust, Z06 brake conversion, corner weighted 4 wheel alignment, and AM Cobalt Guages.
BJK
the stock Z51 springs and sways seem fine but the shocks have to go, they are both harsh over hi-frequency and underdamped on low frequency stuff, oscilates like hell on the freeway
Ill be running the bilsteins because I would like my ride firmer across the board and not as concerened with getting a softer initial response like these konis seem to provide(Im still young and stupid enough to like that nonsense
) though the reports of the bilsteins also giving a more comfortable ride as well wouldnt surprise me much either after driving these Z51 shocks around for a while, I'll let you know if they improve the skitter, I hope so, theres also WAY too much deflection in all the stock bushings as well that doesnt help with quick transitions, but thats a bigger job for a latter day 
12-25-2006, 03:44 AM
#54
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
Bumpsteer
Skitter and bumpsteer is why I didn't buy a Z51 optioned car, though they do really feel great on smooth roads. The roads where I live are documented as some of the worst in the country. I even felt it on my C6 FE1 car before I added the FSD's and Z51 bars. My C5 had a lot of bumpsteer, I added a bumpsteer kit with a suspension compressed bumpsteer compensated alignment with good results. To really set up a bumpsteer kit right you need to check and compensate the alignment settings when the suspension in the front is fully compressed as well at resting ride height. Hunter has a rack/software that does just that. The link below talks about it. My C5 had Z06 springs and bars with Bilstein sports, I was one of the first to get a a C5 on the new Hunter system. The Bilsteins helped a little but the Bumpsteer kit and alignment was quite a dramatic improvement. The problem was from the firm Z06 springs, the C5 Z06 springs are pretty close to the C6 Z51 spring rate. My feeling is the FSD's may help quite a bit. RSL tested the FSD's on a Z51 optioned car with very good results and a noticeable improvement in skitter. Perhaps he could chime in, He would be the man to ask. I noticed my car with the FSDs and Z51 bars has dramatically less shudder and bumpsteer. Again my car actually rides better with the Z51 bars and FSD's vs the FE1 bars and FSD's, so I imagine they would do the same for the Z51 suspension. I bought a bumpsteer kit for my C6, but now I do not feel I need it. After adding the FSD's to my car, a guy in my office complex just ordered a set for his Z51 optioned car. He's not a member here but I may wind up doing the install for him and can give you some feedback. FYI the FSD's are way easier to compress and install vs the OEM's to remove. A bumpsteer kit may be a good addition as well for you guys with Z51 suspension, I hope this helps
http://www.zip-products.com/Zip/prod...38E3B049DDAF1D
http://www.hunter.com/pub/product/al...id=45648d19140
http://www.zip-products.com/Zip/prod...38E3B049DDAF1D
http://www.hunter.com/pub/product/al...id=45648d19140
Last edited by torch2000vert; 12-25-2006 at 04:01 AM.
12-25-2006, 03:55 AM
#55
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oh yeah Ive had that Zip bumpsteer tie-rods on my to-do list since I lowered my car
bumpsteers def there, but theres also alot of oscilation over irregularites/bumps, mostly in the rear, that can be tamed through better dampning, so you say the FSDs are better at that too huh? well Im just gonna have to check out your car, wheres is aptos anyways?
bumpsteers def there, but theres also alot of oscilation over irregularites/bumps, mostly in the rear, that can be tamed through better dampning, so you say the FSDs are better at that too huh? well Im just gonna have to check out your car, wheres is aptos anyways?
12-25-2006, 03:57 AM
#56
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[QUOTE=Invisiguard;1558243079]yeah Im having this same problem with my Z51, It will sure take a nice set through a turn and hold like hell but Ive never had a car that became so unsettled over bumps and irrgularities, really makes me gasp when I hit the slightest bump in the milddle of a turn or even changing lanes
I included my signature to show the performance cars I have owned thru my fifty years of driving. I also included the mods I will shortly be doing to my 07 C6.
One of them is the corner weighted 4 wheel alignment. My speed shop tells me that alot of the handling problems will be improved when they install adjustable end links and have it properly set up for my weight in the diver seat. I also want to address the shock problems at the same time which is why I have been involved in this particular thread even though I don't add a whole lot to the discussion.
BJK
I included my signature to show the performance cars I have owned thru my fifty years of driving. I also included the mods I will shortly be doing to my 07 C6.
One of them is the corner weighted 4 wheel alignment. My speed shop tells me that alot of the handling problems will be improved when they install adjustable end links and have it properly set up for my weight in the diver seat. I also want to address the shock problems at the same time which is why I have been involved in this particular thread even though I don't add a whole lot to the discussion.
BJK
Last edited by 07MontRedcp; 12-25-2006 at 12:26 PM.
12-25-2006, 04:11 AM
#57
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
oh yeah Ive had that Zip bumpsteer tie-rods on my to-do list since I lowered my car
bumpsteers def there, but theres also alot of oscilation over irregularites/bumps, mostly in the rear, that can be tamed through better dampning, so you say the FSDs are better at that too huh? well Im just gonna have to check out your car, wheres is aptos anyways?
bumpsteers def there, but theres also alot of oscilation over irregularites/bumps, mostly in the rear, that can be tamed through better dampning, so you say the FSDs are better at that too huh? well Im just gonna have to check out your car, wheres is aptos anyways?
12-25-2006, 10:08 AM
#59
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The biggest improvement I observed on our C6/Z51 was steering feel/feedback over poor surfaces. With the OE dampers the car wanted to dart back and forth, much like the feel from super-wide tires called "trammlining". It was disconcerting to say the least; you couldn't relax behind the wheel in those conditions.
The FSDs have the smaller, parallel valve that reacts to minor disturbances (high-frequency inputs) and backs off rebound damping force under those situations. The shocks can then absorb the minor hits so you don't feel them.
Some of the MINI guys have been experimenting with FSDs for autocrossing and have found lap time improvements. FSDs were not really designed for this usage, but I think I know what's happening: when the driver gets road inputs through the steering wheel, he/she reacts by feeding in steering angle. Perhaps the FSDs, by filtering out the high-frequency inputs, causes the driver not to try to steer through the event, resulting in a smoother line.
OBTW, I'm also enjoying this discourse on shocks. I'm an enthusiast, too.
The FSDs have the smaller, parallel valve that reacts to minor disturbances (high-frequency inputs) and backs off rebound damping force under those situations. The shocks can then absorb the minor hits so you don't feel them.
Some of the MINI guys have been experimenting with FSDs for autocrossing and have found lap time improvements. FSDs were not really designed for this usage, but I think I know what's happening: when the driver gets road inputs through the steering wheel, he/she reacts by feeding in steering angle. Perhaps the FSDs, by filtering out the high-frequency inputs, causes the driver not to try to steer through the event, resulting in a smoother line.
OBTW, I'm also enjoying this discourse on shocks. I'm an enthusiast, too.
12-25-2006, 12:17 PM
#60
shopdog
I was reading your input on a rather lenghty discussion of bump steer in an old post and am wondering what your insight is on the ability of the FDS Konis to control "skitter", a concern of mine with the Z51 suspension on my 07. It also was a real problem for me with the 89 IROC I had for many years. I was always reluctant to push it in the corners on the street unless the road was dead smooth. Different anaimal than the C6 but I think it may have been the same problem.
I was reading your input on a rather lenghty discussion of bump steer in an old post and am wondering what your insight is on the ability of the FDS Konis to control "skitter", a concern of mine with the Z51 suspension on my 07. It also was a real problem for me with the 89 IROC I had for many years. I was always reluctant to push it in the corners on the street unless the road was dead smooth. Different anaimal than the C6 but I think it may have been the same problem.
You'll still have the issue of the too high rate springs, though. I don't think shocks can cure that. Too high a spring rate won't allow the wheels to properly track irregularities in the road. The ideal setup is when the spring rate times total available spring travel just equals twice the corner weight. The FE1 spring rate almost exactly meets that criteria. The Z51 spring rate is 20% higher. That means the car is going to skitter on rough surfaces.
True bump steer is a different issue. Bump steer has to do with steering geometry. The wheel actually turns left or right due to excursions of the suspension. A car with properly designed steering geometry will have negligible bump steer. I believe the Corvette has properly designed steering geometry. Of course, if your car is out of alignment, that'll throw the geometry off and can cause bump steer. So I always suggest making sure the alignment is correct after any changes to the suspension. (Changing the trim height can throw things out, so you may need a kit to correct the suspension geometry after lowering the car from stock ride height.)
Last edited by shopdog; 12-25-2006 at 12:40 PM.