Why is Sunoco not a top tier gas
10-20-2011, 11:10 PM
#41
Race Director
I was reading through the owner's manual today and visited toptiergas.com. In Canada, Sunoco is listed as a top tier gas, but in the US, it is not. In the Northeast, Sunoco is one of the few brands that offer 93 octane. I'm confused.
Please don't turn this into a 'best gas' p**sing contest...
Thx
GP
Please don't turn this into a 'best gas' p**sing contest...
Thx
GP
Last edited by NORTY; 10-20-2011 at 11:18 PM.
10-21-2011, 05:21 PM
#42
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"Top Tier Gas" is a scam started by one of the companies that IS a top tier station.
Do some research on it. It's just a marketing scam.
All stations share fuel from the same pipelines. The only difference will be in detergents used.
Do some research on it. It's just a marketing scam.
All stations share fuel from the same pipelines. The only difference will be in detergents used.
Last edited by FloydSummerOf68; 10-21-2011 at 05:25 PM.
10-21-2011, 07:40 PM
#43
Team Owner
There are no "tiers" of gasoline. "Top Tier" is a trademark of a group of companies. It is no different than saying "Top Flight gasoline" or "Top Bunk gasoline" "Top End gasoline" "Tip Top gasoline" etc.
10-21-2011, 09:41 PM
#45
Drifting
I don’t know if I am the retired oil company engineer referred to in other posts in this thread, but I am a retired oil company engineer. If you are into conspiracy theories and/or you hate oil companies, nothing that anyone says will convince you that brands or quality specs make a difference. But for those of you who care, as I’ve explained many times in many threads, top tier is not a gimmick. It means that you have demonstrated through engine testing that your additive package maintains highest standards of engine cleanliness. There is a very large difference between top tier and those who meet only minimum EPA additive standards. Companies like Sunoco, who do more than minimum EPA but less than top tier are in between. Trouble is, in such situations you have no way of knowing whether you are getting nearly top tier additive quality, which would be mostly ok, or whether you are closer to minimum EPA, which would not be so good.
As far as the story that it all comes from the same pipe, that depends on where you live. If you are near a refining center or major waterway, you are probably getting gas from that company’s own refineries. If your area is served by pipeline, it may be common carrier gasoline, but even then, it could be from that company’s refineries. It is possible to segregate shipments in pipelines. But irrespective of where the base gas comes from, the additive package is always what it says on the pump. Additives are added in the delivery truck, and there would be too much legal risk for the oil companies to post on the pump that you are getting their additive package when you are really getting something else.
As far as the story that it all comes from the same pipe, that depends on where you live. If you are near a refining center or major waterway, you are probably getting gas from that company’s own refineries. If your area is served by pipeline, it may be common carrier gasoline, but even then, it could be from that company’s refineries. It is possible to segregate shipments in pipelines. But irrespective of where the base gas comes from, the additive package is always what it says on the pump. Additives are added in the delivery truck, and there would be too much legal risk for the oil companies to post on the pump that you are getting their additive package when you are really getting something else.
10-21-2011, 09:52 PM
#46
Team Owner
I don’t know if I am the retired oil company engineer referred to in other posts in this thread, but I am a retired oil company engineer. If you are into conspiracy theories and/or you hate oil companies, nothing that anyone says will convince you that brands or quality specs make a difference. But for those of you who care, as I’ve explained many times in many threads, top tier is not a gimmick. It means that you have demonstrated through engine testing that your additive package maintains highest standards of engine cleanliness. There is a very large difference between top tier and those who meet only minimum EPA additive standards. Companies like Sunoco, who do more than minimum EPA but less than top tier are in between. Trouble is, in such situations you have no way of knowing whether you are getting nearly top tier additive quality, which would be mostly ok, or whether you are closer to minimum EPA, which would not be so good.
As far as the story that it all comes from the same pipe, that depends on where you live. If you are near a refining center or major waterway, you are probably getting gas from that company’s own refineries. If your area is served by pipeline, it may be common carrier gasoline, but even then, it could be from that company’s refineries. It is possible to segregate shipments in pipelines. But irrespective of where the base gas comes from, the additive package is always what it says on the pump. Additives are added in the delivery truck, and there would be too much legal risk for the oil companies to post on the pump that you are getting their additive package when you are really getting something else.
As far as the story that it all comes from the same pipe, that depends on where you live. If you are near a refining center or major waterway, you are probably getting gas from that company’s own refineries. If your area is served by pipeline, it may be common carrier gasoline, but even then, it could be from that company’s refineries. It is possible to segregate shipments in pipelines. But irrespective of where the base gas comes from, the additive package is always what it says on the pump. Additives are added in the delivery truck, and there would be too much legal risk for the oil companies to post on the pump that you are getting their additive package when you are really getting something else.
Not saying some fuels run different additives, so what..Also not saying you can't get a bad batch of fuel at even those so called top teir stations...so what crap happens.
10-21-2011, 10:39 PM
#47
Team Owner
Exxon was noticeably absent from that list for years. I am not aware of any changes to their additives since they were put on the list. If there has been, I don't remember them marketing it.
So what probably happened, is that as top tier became more known, they were forced to submit to the testing for fear of losing more customers/franchise locations.
Bottom line is no matter what it has become now, it started as a marketing gimmick. Quik Trip found a way to differentiate their product from the others as "better", which is the essence of marketing. Others could share in being in this exclusive club, for a fee no doubt. As this marketing masterpiece evolved, it probably turned into something legitimate, forcing others (Exxon for example) to participate. If that isn't marketing, I don't know what is.
10-21-2011, 11:04 PM
#48
Drifting
Member Since: Jan 2008
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The top tier marketing ploy is just some brands that add a few parts per million more detergent than the government requires.
Big deal. That is precisely what it is. Nothing to do with octane at all.
Government regulates the blends of gasoline by season and region. All are the same with the little added detergent that I mentioned for the descended from Mount Olympus Top Tier brands. You can do that your self every couple of months if needed with a little bottle of detergent additive. Add a little more for super duper Top Tier.
I drive 40,000 a year in Corvettes, Vipers, trucks, motorcycles and even Prius's. Never used a top tier station. Always always buy at the lowest price place. Never a single issue with gas except recently with a Shell station that had E15 that I missed on the little tag. Result: Mpg's dropped 25%
Big deal. That is precisely what it is. Nothing to do with octane at all.
Government regulates the blends of gasoline by season and region. All are the same with the little added detergent that I mentioned for the descended from Mount Olympus Top Tier brands. You can do that your self every couple of months if needed with a little bottle of detergent additive. Add a little more for super duper Top Tier.
I drive 40,000 a year in Corvettes, Vipers, trucks, motorcycles and even Prius's. Never used a top tier station. Always always buy at the lowest price place. Never a single issue with gas except recently with a Shell station that had E15 that I missed on the little tag. Result: Mpg's dropped 25%
Last edited by lh4x4; 10-21-2011 at 11:21 PM.
10-22-2011, 12:26 AM
#50
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Quote directly from: http://www.toptiergas.com/deposit_control.html about the supposedly stricter test requirements.
1.2 Deposit Control Additive Requirements. The deposit control additive used to meet the performance Standards described in 1.3 shall meet the substantially similar definition under Section 211(f) of the Clean Air Act. Also, the additive shall be certified to have met the minimum deposit control requirements established by the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) in 40 CFR Part 80. Lastly, the additive shall be registered with the EPA in accordance with 40 CFR Part 79.
All gasoline has to meet the EPA's Clean Air Act standard. That standard is substantially similar to the standards developed by the four automobile manufacturers (BMW, General Motors, Honda, and Toyota) for TOP TIER Detergent Gasoline. That's what the site says.
The reason TOP TIER gasoline is more expensive is not because it's any better. It's because they have to pay for advertising to make you think that it's better. All gasoline has to meet the SAME standard.
1.2 Deposit Control Additive Requirements. The deposit control additive used to meet the performance Standards described in 1.3 shall meet the substantially similar definition under Section 211(f) of the Clean Air Act. Also, the additive shall be certified to have met the minimum deposit control requirements established by the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) in 40 CFR Part 80. Lastly, the additive shall be registered with the EPA in accordance with 40 CFR Part 79.
All gasoline has to meet the EPA's Clean Air Act standard. That standard is substantially similar to the standards developed by the four automobile manufacturers (BMW, General Motors, Honda, and Toyota) for TOP TIER Detergent Gasoline. That's what the site says.
The reason TOP TIER gasoline is more expensive is not because it's any better. It's because they have to pay for advertising to make you think that it's better. All gasoline has to meet the SAME standard.
10-22-2011, 12:38 AM
#51
Race Director
How many "Chevron" distribution trucks do you see? I never seen one. The truck filling up the local chevron station was the same that filled up I think Tesoro.
Also Top Tier having the same address as Quik Trip is real interesting. Quik Trip was at the top of the list also.
I do use Chevron/Texaco though, not because it is Top Tier but because I get a 10c a gallon discount since I use their CC.
Sunoco is just as good as any of them. I used Hess mostly when I was back east. I thought it was cool since that is my last name.
Basically Top Tier is an advertising campaign, if you pay you get additional advertising. Then misinformed owners will buy your product.
Also Top Tier having the same address as Quik Trip is real interesting. Quik Trip was at the top of the list also.
I do use Chevron/Texaco though, not because it is Top Tier but because I get a 10c a gallon discount since I use their CC.
Sunoco is just as good as any of them. I used Hess mostly when I was back east. I thought it was cool since that is my last name.
Basically Top Tier is an advertising campaign, if you pay you get additional advertising. Then misinformed owners will buy your product.
10-22-2011, 07:00 AM
#52
Team Owner
How many "Chevron" distribution trucks do you see? I never seen one. The truck filling up the local chevron station was the same that filled up I think Tesoro.
Also Top Tier having the same address as Quik Trip is real interesting. Quik Trip was at the top of the list also.
I do use Chevron/Texaco though, not because it is Top Tier but because I get a 10c a gallon discount since I use their CC.
Sunoco is just as good as any of them. I used Hess mostly when I was back east. I thought it was cool since that is my last name.
Basically Top Tier is an advertising campaign, if you pay you get additional advertising. Then misinformed owners will buy your product.
Also Top Tier having the same address as Quik Trip is real interesting. Quik Trip was at the top of the list also.
I do use Chevron/Texaco though, not because it is Top Tier but because I get a 10c a gallon discount since I use their CC.
Sunoco is just as good as any of them. I used Hess mostly when I was back east. I thought it was cool since that is my last name.
Basically Top Tier is an advertising campaign, if you pay you get additional advertising. Then misinformed owners will buy your product.
10-22-2011, 07:50 AM
#53
Drifting
Do you happen to know the costs involved in becoming "top tier"'qualified ?
Bottom line is no matter what it has become now, it started as a marketing gimmick. Quik Trip found a way to differentiate their product from the others as "better", which is the essence of marketing. Others could share in being in this exclusive club, for a fee no doubt. As this marketing masterpiece evolved, it probably turned into something legitimate, forcing others (Exxon for example) to participate. If that isn't marketing, I don't know what is.
Bottom line is no matter what it has become now, it started as a marketing gimmick. Quik Trip found a way to differentiate their product from the others as "better", which is the essence of marketing. Others could share in being in this exclusive club, for a fee no doubt. As this marketing masterpiece evolved, it probably turned into something legitimate, forcing others (Exxon for example) to participate. If that isn't marketing, I don't know what is.
Quote directly from: http://www.toptiergas.com/deposit_control.html about the supposedly stricter test requirements.
1.2 Deposit Control Additive Requirements. The deposit control additive used to meet the performance Standards described in 1.3 shall meet the substantially similar definition under Section 211(f) of the Clean Air Act. Also, the additive shall be certified to have met the minimum deposit control requirements established by the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) in 40 CFR Part 80. Lastly, the additive shall be registered with the EPA in accordance with 40 CFR Part 79.
The reason TOP TIER gasoline is more expensive is not because it's any better. It's because they have to pay for advertising to make you think that it's better. All gasoline has to meet the SAME standard.
1.2 Deposit Control Additive Requirements. The deposit control additive used to meet the performance Standards described in 1.3 shall meet the substantially similar definition under Section 211(f) of the Clean Air Act. Also, the additive shall be certified to have met the minimum deposit control requirements established by the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) in 40 CFR Part 80. Lastly, the additive shall be registered with the EPA in accordance with 40 CFR Part 79.
The reason TOP TIER gasoline is more expensive is not because it's any better. It's because they have to pay for advertising to make you think that it's better. All gasoline has to meet the SAME standard.
One of the strangest things in my mind about Top Tier is that they actually don't advertise, and there are not "Top Tier" signs at the gas stations. If it wasn't for this forum, I would have never heard of them. I'd be willing on betting a lot of money that if you spent an hour at a busy gas station asking every customer if they have ever heard of it, or have any idea what it means, there is a very good chance that in that hour you would not find a single customer who has ever heard of it.
10-22-2011, 07:57 AM
#54
Team Owner
Top tier is supported by the auto companies, not the oil companies, so logically, it can’t be considered an oil company marketing gimmick. The only cost to the oil companies is the required engine testing, which costs something like $50,000, and of course, the added cost of the additives that are required to meet the engine testing cleanliness specs. There is no fee to the oil companies.
You are grossly misinterpreting spec 1.2. That is simply legal boilerplate that lawyers stuck in to insure there was no way top tier could be viewed as an alternative spec, replacing EPA spec. So it simply means that you must start by meeting EPA spec, and then you add the top tier specs on top of that. If you go back to the top tier site and look at all the specs, you will find several pages that specify engine testing needed to demonstrate compliance with top tier deposit control, and none of those tests are required to meet EPA spec. Thus your last sentence is half true and half misleading. The half true part is that all gas must meet the same EPA spec. The half misleading part is that in addition, top tier requires you to meet engine cleanliness specs that are not required to meet EPA spec.
That is further evidence that top tier is not an oil company marketing gimmick. If it were, the oil companies would be bragging about it. They don’t brag about it because it’s a recommended spec of some (not all) auto companies. So the oil companies who comply with top tier are just trying to be sure that if a customer reads in the owner’s manual that top tier is recommended, and then goes to the web site to see what top tier means, they will be on the list of top tier companies. If you consider Shell and Chevron as examples, Shell likes to advertise their own detergent buzz words “nitrogen enriched” while Chevron likes to advertise their buzz word “Techron”. That way their ads try to differentiate them from their main, big company competitors. If they advertised top tier, it would differentiate them from the generally smaller companies that don’t comply with top tier, but it would not differentiate them from the big companies who do, and who are their main competitors. From a practical standpoint, both “nitrogen enriched” and “Techron” (as well as other additive packages used by other companies who meet top tier) are pretty much functionally equivalent. All will result in cleaner engines than companies who do not comply with top tier.
You are grossly misinterpreting spec 1.2. That is simply legal boilerplate that lawyers stuck in to insure there was no way top tier could be viewed as an alternative spec, replacing EPA spec. So it simply means that you must start by meeting EPA spec, and then you add the top tier specs on top of that. If you go back to the top tier site and look at all the specs, you will find several pages that specify engine testing needed to demonstrate compliance with top tier deposit control, and none of those tests are required to meet EPA spec. Thus your last sentence is half true and half misleading. The half true part is that all gas must meet the same EPA spec. The half misleading part is that in addition, top tier requires you to meet engine cleanliness specs that are not required to meet EPA spec.
That is further evidence that top tier is not an oil company marketing gimmick. If it were, the oil companies would be bragging about it. They don’t brag about it because it’s a recommended spec of some (not all) auto companies. So the oil companies who comply with top tier are just trying to be sure that if a customer reads in the owner’s manual that top tier is recommended, and then goes to the web site to see what top tier means, they will be on the list of top tier companies. If you consider Shell and Chevron as examples, Shell likes to advertise their own detergent buzz words “nitrogen enriched” while Chevron likes to advertise their buzz word “Techron”. That way their ads try to differentiate them from their main, big company competitors. If they advertised top tier, it would differentiate them from the generally smaller companies that don’t comply with top tier, but it would not differentiate them from the big companies who do, and who are their main competitors. From a practical standpoint, both “nitrogen enriched” and “Techron” (as well as other additive packages used by other companies who meet top tier) are pretty much functionally equivalent. All will result in cleaner engines than companies who do not comply with top tier.
BTW, I'd be interested in who you worked for. I am a "Global Account Manager" for a company that sells electrical products worldwide. My only customer is one of the very large oil companies. I'm responsible for our dealings with them - we do business with all of their facilities in North America and several internationally.
Last edited by jschindler; 10-22-2011 at 08:00 AM.
10-22-2011, 08:19 AM
#55
Drifting
All very good points - great post
BTW, I'd be interested in who you worked for. I am a "Global Account Manager" for a company that sells electrical products worldwide. My only customer is one of the very large oil companies. I'm responsible for our dealings with them - we do business with all of their facilities in North America and several internationally.
BTW, I'd be interested in who you worked for. I am a "Global Account Manager" for a company that sells electrical products worldwide. My only customer is one of the very large oil companies. I'm responsible for our dealings with them - we do business with all of their facilities in North America and several internationally.
10-22-2011, 07:51 PM
#56
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So perhaps advertising campaign would not be the best term. Clever marketing extortion would be better. Create an unofficial voluntary test. Get a few manufacturers on board. Then milk the oil companies for membership fees to get on the list. The oil companies don't really care. The fees are small to them and they just pass it on to the customers.
10-22-2011, 07:56 PM
#57
Team Owner
No offense, but one can come on here and type a 25 paragraph response in support of this scam, I am not buying into it for a second. 
10-22-2011, 08:06 PM
#58
Team Owner
SUNOCO used to have 94 octane gas in NY.Some stuff shirt tree hugger politician whack job put a stop to that.idiots.All gas is pretty much the same imho.All the hype is just marketing bs to get you to buy that product.
10-23-2011, 08:42 AM
#60
Drifting
So perhaps advertising campaign would not be the best term. Clever marketing extortion would be better. Create an unofficial voluntary test. Get a few manufacturers on board. Then milk the oil companies for membership fees to get on the list. The oil companies don't really care. The fees are small to them and they just pass it on to the customers.