Nürburgring, realistic or unrealistic measure of true performance?
06-18-2012, 01:07 PM
#1
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
Nürburgring, realistic or unrealistic measure of true performance?
This is a good discussion I was having on another forum and wanted to hear some CF perspective as well.
Some say, The Nurburgring is "The Benchmark" to determine which cars have true all out performance of power, handling, braking, and all the components necessary that make up a true sports car by laying it all out across 13 miles and 73 turns.
Others say, Nurburgring numbers can't tell anyone how "good" the handling of a car may be despite these ring times, braking distances, slalom numbers, skidpad numbers and shouldn't be considered a measure of performance. That Nurburgring times are only an ego boost to auto manufacturers.
Should great American cars like the ZL1, Z06, ZR1, Boss 302, Shelby GT500, etc... be defined by it's performance at the Nurburgring (chassis modifications aside) or are there too many variables (weather, drivers, etc..) involved with a Ring run to accurately determine which car is a better all around "Sports Car". Are there addtional alternatives and tests that should be used to determine automotive superiority (i.e. 1/4 mile, shorter road course) or is the Ring the ultimate test?
Thoughts?
Some say, The Nurburgring is "The Benchmark" to determine which cars have true all out performance of power, handling, braking, and all the components necessary that make up a true sports car by laying it all out across 13 miles and 73 turns.
Others say, Nurburgring numbers can't tell anyone how "good" the handling of a car may be despite these ring times, braking distances, slalom numbers, skidpad numbers and shouldn't be considered a measure of performance. That Nurburgring times are only an ego boost to auto manufacturers.
Should great American cars like the ZL1, Z06, ZR1, Boss 302, Shelby GT500, etc... be defined by it's performance at the Nurburgring (chassis modifications aside) or are there too many variables (weather, drivers, etc..) involved with a Ring run to accurately determine which car is a better all around "Sports Car". Are there addtional alternatives and tests that should be used to determine automotive superiority (i.e. 1/4 mile, shorter road course) or is the Ring the ultimate test?
Thoughts?
06-18-2012, 01:41 PM
#2
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The Ring is a good measure of a car's ability to perform - if it weren't, the mfgs would not spend the money. It isn't the only measure by any means but it does cover most things.
06-18-2012, 01:42 PM
#3
Team Owner
This is a good discussion I was having on another forum and wanted to hear some CF perspective as well.
Some say, The Nurburgring is "The Benchmark" to determine which cars have true all out performance of power, handling, braking, and all the components necessary that make up a true sports car by laying it all out across 13 miles and 73 turns.
Others say, Nurburgring numbers can't tell anyone how "good" the handling of a car may be despite these ring times, braking distances, slalom numbers, skidpad numbers and shouldn't be considered a measure of performance. That Nurburgring times are only an ego boost to auto manufacturers.
Should great American cars like the ZL1, Z06, ZR1, Boss 302, Shelby GT500, etc... be defined by it's performance at the Nurburgring (chassis modifications aside) or are there too many variables (weather, drivers, etc..) involved with a Ring run to accurately determine which car is a better all around "Sports Car". Are there addtional alternatives and tests that should be used to determine automotive superiority (i.e. 1/4 mile, shorter road course) or is the Ring the ultimate test?
Thoughts?
Some say, The Nurburgring is "The Benchmark" to determine which cars have true all out performance of power, handling, braking, and all the components necessary that make up a true sports car by laying it all out across 13 miles and 73 turns.
Others say, Nurburgring numbers can't tell anyone how "good" the handling of a car may be despite these ring times, braking distances, slalom numbers, skidpad numbers and shouldn't be considered a measure of performance. That Nurburgring times are only an ego boost to auto manufacturers.
Should great American cars like the ZL1, Z06, ZR1, Boss 302, Shelby GT500, etc... be defined by it's performance at the Nurburgring (chassis modifications aside) or are there too many variables (weather, drivers, etc..) involved with a Ring run to accurately determine which car is a better all around "Sports Car". Are there addtional alternatives and tests that should be used to determine automotive superiority (i.e. 1/4 mile, shorter road course) or is the Ring the ultimate test?
Thoughts?
06-18-2012, 01:49 PM
#4
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
06-18-2012, 01:53 PM
#5
Instructor
My thoughts are that the "green hell" is GREAT for the car companies to develop a car on.
And a good time is an accomplishment. For me i want to know...but i wish i could see the times in the different sections..that would really tell a story.
However, i think for the people who like to race with spec sheets, they are misusing it.
And a good time is an accomplishment. For me i want to know...but i wish i could see the times in the different sections..that would really tell a story.
However, i think for the people who like to race with spec sheets, they are misusing it.
06-18-2012, 01:56 PM
#6
The Consigliere
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Given all the different dynamics faced by a sports car's brakes, suspension, engine demands etc, it's a pretty robust test of what the machine is capable of.
Will it tell you what the editors of Car and Driver, Automobile, et al - most of whom are used to driving small displacement, low torque cars can do? Or what the average Joe driver can do? Or the average vette owner can do? Or what the average F car or P car owner can do? Nope.
But it will give a pretty good indication of what the machine can do.
Which is why it has merit, and why the manufacturers use it as a performance test bed.
Will it tell you what the editors of Car and Driver, Automobile, et al - most of whom are used to driving small displacement, low torque cars can do? Or what the average Joe driver can do? Or the average vette owner can do? Or what the average F car or P car owner can do? Nope.
But it will give a pretty good indication of what the machine can do.
Which is why it has merit, and why the manufacturers use it as a performance test bed.
06-18-2012, 02:11 PM
#7
Instructor
Given all the different dynamics faced by a sports car's brakes, suspension, engine demands etc, it's a pretty robust test of what the machine is capable of.
Will it tell you what the editors of Car and Driver, Automobile, et al - most of whom are used to driving small displacement, low torque cars can do? Or what the average Joe driver can do? Or the average vette owner can do? Or what the average F car or P car owner can do? Nope.
But it will give a pretty good indication of what the machine can do.
Which is why it has merit, and why the manufacturers use it as a performance test bed.
Will it tell you what the editors of Car and Driver, Automobile, et al - most of whom are used to driving small displacement, low torque cars can do? Or what the average Joe driver can do? Or the average vette owner can do? Or what the average F car or P car owner can do? Nope.
But it will give a pretty good indication of what the machine can do.
Which is why it has merit, and why the manufacturers use it as a performance test bed.
Not to mention that car mags are biased, and i got tired of reading their invalid opinions and "rigged" tests.
06-18-2012, 02:13 PM
#8
Team Owner
06-18-2012, 02:13 PM
#9
Drifting
06-18-2012, 03:33 PM
#10
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
Maybe the Nurburgring should start off at a burnout pit, followed by a timed quarter mile blast continuing into the first of 73 turns and 13 miles of mayhem. 
06-18-2012, 03:57 PM
#11
Melting Slicks
The ring does tend to favor high grip, high hp cars. The problem with the question is that there's really no right or wrong answer.
The reason for that is because everybody's expectation for a car is different. Even among just corvette owners and enthusiasts. Some want cushy comfort with passing power. Some drag race while still others auto-x or road race the cars.
The ring may well be one of the better options for "overall" testing, however I wouldn't stake much on it. Keep in mind that the people testing these cars are professional drivers that spend weeks, if not months in the same car, on the same track.
To think that the average owner is going to be able to put their car on the ring and run anywhere near the times set is a bit over-zealous.
This is why thorough test-drives are still your best bet. Certainly take the magazine numbers in to account, but you should still like and feel comfortable in your car. Not because the mags said it's the best.
The reason for that is because everybody's expectation for a car is different. Even among just corvette owners and enthusiasts. Some want cushy comfort with passing power. Some drag race while still others auto-x or road race the cars.
The ring may well be one of the better options for "overall" testing, however I wouldn't stake much on it. Keep in mind that the people testing these cars are professional drivers that spend weeks, if not months in the same car, on the same track.
To think that the average owner is going to be able to put their car on the ring and run anywhere near the times set is a bit over-zealous.
This is why thorough test-drives are still your best bet. Certainly take the magazine numbers in to account, but you should still like and feel comfortable in your car. Not because the mags said it's the best.
06-18-2012, 04:08 PM
#12
Race Director
The Nordschleiffe Course is suitable because all other vehicle makers use it.
Imagine how bad things would be if car maker "G" said, "Our super duper car goes around Riverside Int'l Raceway in 2;22;22." And then car maker "F" said, "Our super duper car goes around Nardo in 2;22;22." What the hell would this mean? (It means RIR and Nardo have somehow been resurrected!)
Besides, with the exception of parking lot turning radius testing, the Nord Course is quite thorough.
Imagine how bad things would be if car maker "G" said, "Our super duper car goes around Riverside Int'l Raceway in 2;22;22." And then car maker "F" said, "Our super duper car goes around Nardo in 2;22;22." What the hell would this mean? (It means RIR and Nardo have somehow been resurrected!)
Besides, with the exception of parking lot turning radius testing, the Nord Course is quite thorough.
06-18-2012, 04:19 PM
#13
Instructor
The ring does tend to favor high grip, high hp cars. The problem with the question is that there's really no right or wrong answer.
The reason for that is because everybody's expectation for a car is different. Even among just corvette owners and enthusiasts. Some want cushy comfort with passing power. Some drag race while still others auto-x or road race the cars.
The ring may well be one of the better options for "overall" testing, however I wouldn't stake much on it. Keep in mind that the people testing these cars are professional drivers that spend weeks, if not months in the same car, on the same track.
To think that the average owner is going to be able to put their car on the ring and run anywhere near the times set is a bit over-zealous.
This is why thorough test-drives are still your best bet. Certainly take the magazine numbers in to account, but you should still like and feel comfortable in your car. Not because the mags said it's the best.
The reason for that is because everybody's expectation for a car is different. Even among just corvette owners and enthusiasts. Some want cushy comfort with passing power. Some drag race while still others auto-x or road race the cars.
The ring may well be one of the better options for "overall" testing, however I wouldn't stake much on it. Keep in mind that the people testing these cars are professional drivers that spend weeks, if not months in the same car, on the same track.
To think that the average owner is going to be able to put their car on the ring and run anywhere near the times set is a bit over-zealous.
This is why thorough test-drives are still your best bet. Certainly take the magazine numbers in to account, but you should still like and feel comfortable in your car. Not because the mags said it's the best.
Cars like the Miata and S2000 would not get good times compared to High Hp competition, but they are no means bad cars or lesser cars.
It all depends on your flavor.
Really it comes down to what you want your car to do...and MFGs testing on the ring really has it benefits.
I think its awesome that the corvette just hits pretty much every sector of automotive fun...whether it would be drag racing, road racing, or just a comfy cruise with a powerful car.
06-18-2012, 05:16 PM
#14
Melting Slicks
I think the Ring is one of the best all-around performance comparisons out there - but the big factor in doing comparisons is TIRES ... when comparing be sure to check what tires a given car is running -- many use r-compounds that give a big advantage. Best tire availble for a regular production order is what I look for in the tests.
06-18-2012, 08:29 PM
#15
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Quite true!
I think the Ring is one of the best all-around performance comparisons out there - but the big factor in doing comparisons is TIRES ... when comparing be sure to check what tires a given car is running -- many use r-compounds that give a big advantage. Best tire availble for a regular production order is what I look for in the tests.
06-18-2012, 10:05 PM
#16
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The ring does tend to favor high grip, high hp cars. The problem with the question is that there's really no right or wrong answer.
The reason for that is because everybody's expectation for a car is different. Even among just corvette owners and enthusiasts. Some want cushy comfort with passing power. Some drag race while still others auto-x or road race the cars.
The ring may well be one of the better options for "overall" testing, however I wouldn't stake much on it. Keep in mind that the people testing these cars are professional drivers that spend weeks, if not months in the same car, on the same track.
To think that the average owner is going to be able to put their car on the ring and run anywhere near the times set is a bit over-zealous.
This is why thorough test-drives are still your best bet. Certainly take the magazine numbers in to account, but you should still like and feel comfortable in your car. Not because the mags said it's the best.
The reason for that is because everybody's expectation for a car is different. Even among just corvette owners and enthusiasts. Some want cushy comfort with passing power. Some drag race while still others auto-x or road race the cars.
The ring may well be one of the better options for "overall" testing, however I wouldn't stake much on it. Keep in mind that the people testing these cars are professional drivers that spend weeks, if not months in the same car, on the same track.
To think that the average owner is going to be able to put their car on the ring and run anywhere near the times set is a bit over-zealous.
This is why thorough test-drives are still your best bet. Certainly take the magazine numbers in to account, but you should still like and feel comfortable in your car. Not because the mags said it's the best.
Keep in mind too, the cars that do the best on the "ring", or on any track, may lack performance at cooler temperatures or in wet weather due to their summer performance tires, especially after a few thousand miles when their shallow treads get even shallower, and their super soft grippy tread compounds "age harden" with use. The ultra high performance Z06 and ZR1 Vettes also require mastering the use of manual transmissions, something that 80% of todays Corvette drivers have limited skills in using.
06-18-2012, 10:07 PM
#17
Race Director
It still sets the standard. I hope Sabine Schmidt is running her Ring Taxi business again when I go to Germany in a couple years. She can definitely drive, almost 10 minutes around the ring in a van.
While you can drive around the course, you really don't want to go 100% all the way around it. Corners are all different and there is a lot of elevation changes, lots of traffic also. Also in Germany there is ALWAYS someone faster than you.
While you can drive around the course, you really don't want to go 100% all the way around it. Corners are all different and there is a lot of elevation changes, lots of traffic also. Also in Germany there is ALWAYS someone faster than you.
06-19-2012, 02:02 AM
#18
Drifting
Cars like the Miata and S2000 would not get good times compared to High Hp competition, but they are no means bad cars or lesser cars.
It all depends on your flavor.
Really it comes down to what you want your car to do...and MFGs testing on the ring really has it benefits.
I think its awesome that the corvette just hits pretty much every sector of automotive fun...whether it would be drag racing, road racing, or just a comfy cruise with a powerful car.
I'm not sure that tells the average guy walking into a showroom much about what he can expect.
People here complain about the GT-R say it makes anyone a good driver. I don't have a problem with that.
A car that to be driven really fast is also on the verge of killing you is not a great street car.
06-19-2012, 05:36 AM
#19
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The Nurburgring is one of those things in this world that inexplicably holds such mystical powers for those that never stepped foot on the soil from which it was carved.
It's a bitch to drive, it kills those that don't respect it and at the end of the day it's a horrible track. The pavement in many sections is over 22 years old, when it rains its no different than trying to drive on ice with a thin film of water over it.
Part of the draw could be the perceived attainability that it provides or maybe it's the sheer complexity of the 172 odd corners (I'm attempting to recall facts from memory).
From a performance comparison though, there are some really nice tracks here and elsewhere in the world that provide just of an accurate picture as Nurburgring. VIR and Laguna Seca jump to mind - though, if you're not driving those tracks - I'd hope you aren't planning to drive this one. Those are just as attainable with enough planning as Nurburgring.
In the end, bench racing vehicles on forums is stupid and doesn't yield anything productive in the grand scheme of things. Sure it's fun but it's all hot air and no different than people who magazine race quarter mile times.
The question I generally ask - what are you doing to make yourself a better driver or to maintain your skills? These are what's important. I myself had previously purchased a highly modified C5 after a long string of other performance cars because of the mystique that it held in the Internet community. What did it yield to me? A car that I couldn't enjoy on a daily basis. It was only fun when the weather was perfect. I now own a stock C6 and I couldn't be happier. This car, I can drive anywhere and enjoy it.
If you haven't had the opportunity to drive the Nurburgring, I'd say it might be worth the time to enjoy it if presented the opportunity. If traveling to Germany is out of your future, I wouldn't worry too much about what the magazines say about which car is better than another on one track versus another. I would recommend that you get involved in Motorsports in one fashion or another in your community and work to prevent things from happening like what happened to KCIR last year. That's disheartening that we as a community allowed 4 people to dictate our passion. NIMBY's the lot of them.
It's a bitch to drive, it kills those that don't respect it and at the end of the day it's a horrible track. The pavement in many sections is over 22 years old, when it rains its no different than trying to drive on ice with a thin film of water over it.
Part of the draw could be the perceived attainability that it provides or maybe it's the sheer complexity of the 172 odd corners (I'm attempting to recall facts from memory).
From a performance comparison though, there are some really nice tracks here and elsewhere in the world that provide just of an accurate picture as Nurburgring. VIR and Laguna Seca jump to mind - though, if you're not driving those tracks - I'd hope you aren't planning to drive this one. Those are just as attainable with enough planning as Nurburgring.
In the end, bench racing vehicles on forums is stupid and doesn't yield anything productive in the grand scheme of things. Sure it's fun but it's all hot air and no different than people who magazine race quarter mile times.
The question I generally ask - what are you doing to make yourself a better driver or to maintain your skills? These are what's important. I myself had previously purchased a highly modified C5 after a long string of other performance cars because of the mystique that it held in the Internet community. What did it yield to me? A car that I couldn't enjoy on a daily basis. It was only fun when the weather was perfect. I now own a stock C6 and I couldn't be happier. This car, I can drive anywhere and enjoy it.
If you haven't had the opportunity to drive the Nurburgring, I'd say it might be worth the time to enjoy it if presented the opportunity. If traveling to Germany is out of your future, I wouldn't worry too much about what the magazines say about which car is better than another on one track versus another. I would recommend that you get involved in Motorsports in one fashion or another in your community and work to prevent things from happening like what happened to KCIR last year. That's disheartening that we as a community allowed 4 people to dictate our passion. NIMBY's the lot of them.
